IN - Grandfather charged in cruise ship death of toddler Chloe Wiegand

[sl222]

is it just me or do the windows look square on the exterior view and rectangular on the interior view? I don’t understand why they look so different.

I wondered the same thing many times. It's the angle of the shots. Even though it is uncanny how different they look from the exterior shots.

 

[Safeguard]

Family of Girl Killed in Cruise Fall Pens Emotional Obituary

That was the sweetest avoidable obit I've ever read.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

I do wonder why their criminal atty hadn’t told him to shut the heck up?

Criminal defense lawyer has no control over civil personal injury lawyer. Unless his boss, etc. Mom and dad’s interests are not aligned with Gp.

 

[LietKynes]

What Did CBS Reporters Say? "None...Agrees that It is a Crime?" Did They Say That? So?
@MyBelle sbm On ^ post , you said:
"....CBS story from today makes no mention of police and none of the news panel agrees that it is a crime....Grandfather charged in death of granddaughter who fell from cruise ship" bbm

Q 1. Is your post referring to ^ link? Or a different link?

Q 2. If same link, pls note timestamps at which each reporter says/agrees G'pa's action(s) is not a crime.
I watched and listened several times and do not hear any of them dispute it is a crime.

Snipped for focus.
LBM

Agreed.
None of the reporters ever alluded to SA not having committed a crime.

Most certainly a crime was committed.

If a person knowingly drinks until they're barely able to stand, yet get into a vehicle and later strike and kill someone --that is also negligent homicide as opposed to manslaughter , which is if one hits someone accidentally while sober with a car (on an icy patch of road or otherwise inclement weather or accidental circumstances) and stopping to call 911/assisting the injured.

 

[MsBetsy]

Yes. Absolutely. Whatever else could they be using? Neg Homicide is different than Manslaughter.
They saw what he did and it resulted in the more serious charge.

What exactly is the difference between manslaughter and negligent homicide in this case?
In NY there is voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, with one involving intent to harm and the other usually being a crime of passion.
How exactly is negligent homicide defined?
I've only heard of it pertaining to negligent vehicular homicide.

Imo

 

[Safeguard]

Who would go on a cruise to look through window screens? Ridiculous.

I recently went on two different whale watching trips. There were probably 6 - 10 young children on each, and parents were insisting that the kids sit down beside them. Several were young enough that the parents took them out of strollers before boarding the boat.

These were open boats, no windows, screens or barriers. No posted warnings about keeping children from leading over the side, standing on the seats, etc. Yet parents were taking responsibility for their children.

In all fairness. That's not really a good comparison. As an avid water skier in my teens, I can assure you there where strict rules for sitting, standing, spotting, and other behaviors relating to safety. A cruise ship is a whole nother animal. I feel like there is probably a false a sense of security on what pretty much amounts to a floating building.

 

[Safeguard]

What exactly is the difference between manslaughter and negligent homicide in this case?
In NY there is voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, with one involving intent to harm and the other usually being a crime of passion.
How exactly is negligent homicide defined?
I've only heard of it pertaining to negligent vehicular homicide.

Imo

"The law states that you can be charged with criminally negligent homicide if your criminally negligent behavior caused the death of another person. On the other hand, the law states that you can be charged with manslaughter if your reckless behavior caused the death of another person. Therefore, the difference between these two crimes is the type of behavior that caused the victim’s death."

Criminally Negligent Homicide vs. Manslaughter: What’s the Difference?

 

[al66pine]

What exactly is the difference between manslaughter and negligent homicide in this case?
In NY there is voluntary and involuntary manslaughter, with one involving intent to harm and the other usually being a crime of passion.
How exactly is negligent homicide defined?
I've only heard of it pertaining to negligent vehicular homicide.
Imo

@MsBetsy Maybe this will help, w bbm & rbm and gbm
Laws of Puerto Rico Annotated
TITLE THIRTY-THREE Penal Code
Subtitle 5 Penal Code of 2004—Special Provisions
PART I. Crimes Against the Person
Chapter 297. Crimes Against Life
Subchapter I. Murder and Homicide
§ 4733. Murder
Murder is to kill another human being with intent. [If G'pa did not intend to kill, scroll down.]
§ 4734. Degrees of murder
First degree murder is constituted by:
(a) Any murder committed by means of poison, stalking or torture, or with premeditation.
(b) Any murder committed as a natural consequence of the attempt or consummation of aggravated arson, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated burglary, kidnapping, child abduction, serious damage or destruction, poisoning of bodies of water for public use, mayhem, escape, and intentional abuse or abandonment of a minor.
(c) The murder of a law enforcement officer, school police, municipal guard or police officer, marshal, prosecutor, solicitor for minors’ affairs, special family solicitors for child abuse, judge or custody officer in the performance of his duty, committed while carrying out, attempting or concealing a felony.
Any other intentional killing of a human being constitutes second degree murder. [<<<Still not applicable, if G'pa did not intend to kill, so scroll down.]
§ 4735. Penalties for murder
Any person convicted of murder in the first degree shall be penalized as established for a first degree felony.
Any person convicted of murder in the second degree shall be penalized as established for a severe second degree felony.
§ 4736. Manslaughter
Notwithstanding the provisions of § 4735 of this title, when the murder occurs in circumstances of sudden heat of passion or rage, the convict shall receive the penalty established for a third degree felony. [<<<Still not applicable, if G'pa did not kill in sudden heat of passion or rage, scroll down.]
[^If Chloe's death was none of the above, now we get to NegHom that G'pa was charged w]
§ 4737. Negligent homicide

Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.
[ed: rest of this section 4737 re motor vehicular deaths is not app to case at hand.
But this is likely similar to NY statute you mentioned] When the death is caused while driving a motor vehicle with wanton disregard for the safety of others, or while aiming and shooting a firearm at an undefined target, the offender shall incur a third degree felony. When the death is caused while driving a motor vehicle under the influence of controlled substances or alcoholic beverages, as provided and defined in §§ 5001 et seq. of Title 9, known as the “Puerto Rico Vehicle and Traffic Act”, the offender shall incur a second degree felony.


[ @MsBetsy Got it? This may be on the quiz later. j/k]

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Grandfather Who Dropped Toddler From Cruise Ship Deck May Face Charges | HuffPost

July 9, 2019

A man from Indiana may face negligence charges after dropping his 18-month-old granddaughter from a cruise ship deck in Puerto Rico on Sunday, resulting in the child’s death.

[It appears negligence was suspected by the investigators from the beginning, and I believe it also explains why the parents (experienced in legal matters) immediately took a defensive position about the accident].

The Royal Caribbean ship Freedom of the Seas was docked after a seven-day Caribbean cruise, and Salvatore Anello was with his granddaughter, Chloe Wiegand, in a children’s play area that was mostly enclosed by clear glass paneling.

[...]

Anello placed Chloe on a railing that he believed was behind glass so she could see outside, the family’s lawyer Michael Winkleman told NBC News.

“Essentially, her grandfather lifts her up and puts her on a railing and where he thinks that there is glass there because it’s clear, but it turns out there was no glass there,” he said. “She goes to bang on the glass like she would have at one of those hockey rinks, and the next thing you know, she’s gone.”

[...]

Authorities said on Monday that they are investigating whether to charge Anello with negligence for dropping the little girl, but his family isn’t blaming him for Chloe’s tragic death.
_______________

Grandfather Charged in Toddler’s Fatal Fall From Cruise Ship

Oct 29, 2019

The grandfather of a child who fell to her death as he held her near a window on a cruise ship has been charged with negligent homicide, the Puerto Rico Department of Justice announced on Monday.

[...]

Mr. Anello, 51, “negligently exposed the child to the abyss through a window on the 11th floor of the cruise ship,” Dennise N. Longo Quiñones, the Puerto Rico attorney general, and other officials said in a statement. The child fell 115 feet off the cruise ship, called Freedom of the Seas.

[...]

On Monday, Judge Jimmy Sepulveda of the San Juan Investigation Court set bail at $80,000 for Mr. Anello, who was charged with one count of negligent homicide. Mr. Anello, who lives in Indiana, was in the courtroom and posted bond, according to Michael Winkleman, a lawyer for the child’s parents. He is expected back in Puerto Rico for a preliminary hearing on Nov. 20.

__________

Prosecutor cites SA raised CW to the window exposing her to danger. Nowhere has the prosecutor alleged SA dangled baby outside the window, and I see no reason to allege what's not been charged by investigators and/or the Dept of Justice.

Many photos exist of a dotting grandfather with child in his arms -- often bringing objects to her reach. Seems to me this was no different for them except gravity took hold here when child leaned forward towards the windows and the opening.

So why was SA charged with negligent homicide when no charges filed for at least three other (child) falling injuries/death on RC (2012-18)? Probably because Chloe could not reasonably reach the dangerous opening without the aid of an adult.

Would SA be charged if Chloe pushed through a screen in that window? Probably not.

MOO

ETA: Never seen window screens on any cruise ships.

Edited to add: Sorry about the strike throughs. Don’t know how that happened.

Beg to differ. Reread what the PR Attorney General and other officials said in a statement. EXACTLY what they said.
They did not “cite SA raised CW to the window exposing her to danger. Nowhere has the prosecutor alleged SA dangled baby outside the window, and I see no reason to allege what's not been charged ...”
They said “Mr. Anello, 51, “negligently exposed the child to the abyss through a window on the 11th floor of the cruise ship,””
There was no dangling language. Negligently EXPOSED the child to the ABYSS THROUGH A WINDOW...
Exposed means : to deprive of shelter, protection, or care : subject to risk from a harmful action or condition
abyss means a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity; vast chasm.
per dictionary.com
through a window. Not by a window, not raised to a window.
THROUGH A WINDOW.
He had her outside of the ship in the air through a window. We don’t know if he was holding her in his arms, on his shoulders, by her waist, by her sundress. She was outside of the ship, with nothing around her except him holding her or her clothes, and subjecting her to risk from a harmful action or condition.
He didn’t expose her to the abyss inside the ship, bc the abyss is outside of the ship. The abyss happened to be through the window to get to it. It could have been a door. Or a screen.
So, the statement clearly defines what happened and why he is charged. If he hadn’t lost his grip, it still would be a crime. Probably attempted negligent homicide.
This was not reckless behavior.
Still striking through. Don’t know why.

 

[MsBetsy]

"The law states that you can be charged with criminally negligent homicide if your criminally negligent behavior caused the death of another person. On the other hand, the law states that you can be charged with manslaughter if your reckless behavior caused the death of another person. Therefore, the difference between these two crimes is the type of behavior that caused the victim’s death."

Criminally Negligent Homicide vs. Manslaughter: What’s the Difference?

Thanks! I tried looking it up but it's hard to understand the difference between the two.
So it would seem to me that not only was he reckless, but he was engaged in a criminal act which led to the child falling to her death.
But I'm still not sure how it's different than manslaughter from the information we have so far.
What was the criminal act? Hanging the child out the window?


Imo

 

[MsBetsy]

@MsBetsy Maybe this will help, w bbm & rbm and gbm
Laws of Puerto Rico Annotated
TITLE THIRTY-THREE Penal Code
Subtitle 5 Penal Code of 2004—Special Provisions
PART I. Crimes Against the Person
Chapter 297. Crimes Against Life
Subchapter I. Murder and Homicide
§ 4733. Murder
Murder is to kill another human being with intent. [If G'pa did not intend to kill, scroll down.]
§ 4734. Degrees of murder
First degree murder is constituted by:
(a) Any murder committed by means of poison, stalking or torture, or with premeditation.
(b) Any murder committed as a natural consequence of the attempt or consummation of aggravated arson, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated burglary, kidnapping, child abduction, serious damage or destruction, poisoning of bodies of water for public use, mayhem, escape, and intentional abuse or abandonment of a minor.
(c) The murder of a law enforcement officer, school police, municipal guard or police officer, marshal, prosecutor, solicitor for minors’ affairs, special family solicitors for child abuse, judge or custody officer in the performance of his duty, committed while carrying out, attempting or concealing a felony.
Any other intentional killing of a human being constitutes second degree murder. [<<<Still not applicable, if G'pa did not intend to kill, so scroll down.]
§ 4735. Penalties for murder
Any person convicted of murder in the first degree shall be penalized as established for a first degree felony.
Any person convicted of murder in the second degree shall be penalized as established for a severe second degree felony.
§ 4736. Manslaughter
Notwithstanding the provisions of § 4735 of this title, when the murder occurs in circumstances of sudden heat of passion or rage, the convict shall receive the penalty established for a third degree felony. [<<<Still not applicable, if G'pa did not kill in sudden heat of passion or rage, scroll down.]
[^If Chloe's death was none of the above, now we get to NegHom that G'pa was charged w]
§ 4737. Negligent homicide

Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.
[ed: rest of this section 4737 re motor vehicular deaths is not app to case at hand.
But this is likely similar to NY statute you mentioned] When the death is caused while driving a motor vehicle with wanton disregard for the safety of others, or while aiming and shooting a firearm at an undefined target, the offender shall incur a third degree felony. When the death is caused while driving a motor vehicle under the influence of controlled substances or alcoholic beverages, as provided and defined in §§ 5001 et seq. of Title 9, known as the “Puerto Rico Vehicle and Traffic Act”, the offender shall incur a second degree felony.


[ @MsBetsy Got it? This may be on the quiz later. j/k]

Well, that particular definition of negligent homicide makes more sense.
It's similar to involuntary manslaughter. (In NY state)

Imo

 

[max99]

Edited to add: Sorry about the strike throughs. Don’t know how that happened.

Beg to differ. Reread what the PR Attorney General and other officials said in a statement. EXACTLY what they said.
They did not “cite SA raised CW to the window exposing her to danger. Nowhere has the prosecutor alleged SA dangled baby outside the window, and I see no reason to allege what's not been charged ...”
They said “Mr. Anello, 51, “negligently exposed the child to the abyss through a window on the 11th floor of the cruise ship,””
There was no dangling language. Negligently EXPOSED the child to the ABYSS THROUGH A WINDOW...
Exposed means : to deprive of shelter, protection, or care : subject to risk from a harmful action or condition
abyss means a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity; vast chasm.
per dictionary.com
through a window. Not by a window, not raised to a window.
THROUGH A WINDOW.
He had her outside of the ship in the air through a window. We don’t know if he was holding her in his arms, on his shoulders, by her waist, by her sundress. She was outside of the ship, with nothing around her except him holding her or her clothes, and subjecting her to risk from a harmful action or condition.
He didn’t expose her to the abyss inside the ship, bc the abyss is outside of the ship. The abyss happened to be through the window to get to it. It could have been a door. Or a screen.
So, the statement clearly defines what happened and why he is charged. If he hadn’t lost his grip, it still would be a crime. Probably attempted negligent homicide.
This was not reckless behavior.
Still striking through. Don’t know why.

wow...that's pretty damning info....he had to have had a couple of "welcome aboard" beverages to be recorded doing something that asinine.

 

[MsMarple]

Jumping ahead here since I can't seem to catch up...

I had an interesting conversation with one of my daughters - not the one who's a lawyer but one whom I "sounded out" as if she were a potential juror for the civil suit. To be clear she doesn't live anywhere near PR but I was looking for fresh eyes on the case.

Anyway, my argument was (as I stated upthread) that the parents have to show that RCCL was aware of a potential danger if someone hoisted a toddler up onto the rail in front of an open window and did nothing to prevent it. Because there's no precedent where a child fell out the window under the same circumstances that it will be a difficult argument, given that the grandfather ignored the ship safety policy.

Her counter argument was that RCCL likely shouldn't be held 100% responsible but at the same time there's an issue of anticipating that people sometimes do act in a manner that defies logic and that something as simple of welding blocks in the windows that prevent them from opening wide wouldn't be a hardship. She compared it to cars which are designed to limit how low a window goes in the back seat. The thinking is that limiting the opening helps prevent a child from falling out the window.

Does that make sense? I don't know but if she represents an average person on a jury then the outcome may be of the jury finding both the grandfather and RCCL responsible for Chloe's death. Just an observation. Verdicts in civil cases can be driven more by emotion than logic. MOO.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

@MsBetsy Maybe this will help, w bbm & rbm and gbm
Laws of Puerto Rico Annotated
TITLE THIRTY-THREE Penal Code
Subtitle 5 Penal Code of 2004—Special Provisions
PART I. Crimes Against the Person
Chapter 297. Crimes Against Life
Subchapter I. Murder and Homicide
§ 4733. Murder
Murder is to kill another human being with intent. [If G'pa did not intend to kill, scroll down.]
§ 4734. Degrees of murder
First degree murder is constituted by:
(a) Any murder committed by means of poison, stalking or torture, or with premeditation.
(b) Any murder committed as a natural consequence of the attempt or consummation of aggravated arson, sexual assault, robbery, aggravated burglary, kidnapping, child abduction, serious damage or destruction, poisoning of bodies of water for public use, mayhem, escape, and intentional abuse or abandonment of a minor.
(c) The murder of a law enforcement officer, school police, municipal guard or police officer, marshal, prosecutor, solicitor for minors’ affairs, special family solicitors for child abuse, judge or custody officer in the performance of his duty, committed while carrying out, attempting or concealing a felony.
Any other intentional killing of a human being constitutes second degree murder. [<<<Still not applicable, if G'pa did not intend to kill, so scroll down.]
§ 4735. Penalties for murder
Any person convicted of murder in the first degree shall be penalized as established for a first degree felony.
Any person convicted of murder in the second degree shall be penalized as established for a severe second degree felony.
§ 4736. Manslaughter
Notwithstanding the provisions of § 4735 of this title, when the murder occurs in circumstances of sudden heat of passion or rage, the convict shall receive the penalty established for a third degree felony. [<<<Still not applicable, if G'pa did not kill in sudden heat of passion or rage, scroll down.]
[^If Chloe's death was none of the above, now we get to NegHom that G'pa was charged w]
§ 4737. Negligent homicide

Any person who causes the death of another through negligence shall incur a misdemeanor, but shall receive the penalty established for a fourth degree felony.
[ed: rest of this section 4737 re motor vehicular deaths is not app to case at hand.
But this is likely similar to NY statute you mentioned] When the death is caused while driving a motor vehicle with wanton disregard for the safety of others, or while aiming and shooting a firearm at an undefined target, the offender shall incur a third degree felony. When the death is caused while driving a motor vehicle under the influence of controlled substances or alcoholic beverages, as provided and defined in §§ 5001 et seq. of Title 9, known as the “Puerto Rico Vehicle and Traffic Act”, the offender shall incur a second degree felony.


[ @MsBetsy Got it? This may be on the quiz later. j/k]

Most States have a little more to go on, as I recall. I think that’s why we’re all confused about manslaughter vs. murder definitions.

 

[LietKynes]

Edited to add: Sorry about the strike throughs. Don’t know how that happened.

Beg to differ. Reread what the PR Attorney General and other officials said in a statement. EXACTLY what they said.
They did not “cite SA raised CW to the window exposing her to danger. Nowhere has the prosecutor alleged SA dangled baby outside the window, and I see no reason to allege what's not been charged ...”
They said “Mr. Anello, 51, “negligently exposed the child to the abyss through a window on the 11th floor of the cruise ship,””
There was no dangling language. Negligently EXPOSED the child to the ABYSS THROUGH A WINDOW...
Exposed means : to deprive of shelter, protection, or care : subject to risk from a harmful action or condition
abyss means a deep, immeasurable space, gulf, or cavity; vast chasm.
per dictionary.com
through a window. Not by a window, not raised to a window.
THROUGH A WINDOW.
He had her outside of the ship in the air through a window. We don’t know if he was holding her in his arms, on his shoulders, by her waist, by her sundress. She was outside of the ship, with nothing around her except him holding her or her clothes, and subjecting her to risk from a harmful action or condition.
He didn’t expose her to the abyss inside the ship, bc the abyss is outside of the ship. The abyss happened to be through the window to get to it. It could have been a door. Or a screen.
So, the statement clearly defines what happened and why he is charged. If he hadn’t lost his grip, it still would be a crime. Probably attempted negligent homicide.
This was not reckless behavior.
Still striking through. Don’t know why.

Go to the small menu tab that looks like a postage stamp and "unselect" the "strike through" for the part you want left intact....

Good find.
That is VERY damning evidence.
It's possible this was not an accident.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Jumping ahead here since I can't seem to catch up...

I had an interesting conversation with one of my daughters - not the one who's a lawyer but one whom I "sounded out" as if she were a potential juror for the civil suit. To be clear she doesn't live anywhere near PR but I was looking for fresh eyes on the case.

Anyway, my argument was (as I stated upthread) that the parents have to show that RCCL was aware of a potential danger if someone hoisted a toddler up onto the rail in front of an open window and did nothing to prevent it. Because there's no precedent where a child fell out the window under the same circumstances that it will be a difficult argument, given that the grandfather ignored the ship safety policy.

Her counter argument was that RCCL likely shouldn't be held 100% responsible but at the same time there's an issue of anticipating that people sometimes do act in a manner that defies logic and that something as simple of welding blocks in the windows that prevent them from opening wide wouldn't be a hardship. She compared it to cars which are designed to limit how low a window goes in the back seat. The thinking is that limiting the opening helps prevent a child from falling out the window.

Does that make sense? I don't know but if she represents an average person on a jury then the outcome may be of the jury finding both the grandfather and RCCL responsible for Chloe's death. Just an observation. Verdicts in civil cases can be driven more by emotion than logic. MOO.

Almost got it but the difference is in a car the child can roll the window up or down, subject to driver lock controls and get themselves hurt or killed. Here, the window could not have been reached by a child. And RCCL cannot be expected to foresee that some man would put his grandchild up and over safety rails, that are high enough to be under his armpit high so that the child could be put on the window ledge or held outside of the window for whatever reason. Is it REASONABLY foreseeable that a reasonably prudent man one with ordinary sensibilities, would do this? Yes, to open window for fresh air. To jump out of it? Commit suicide? Hold a toddler in the air outside of the ship? Not in the interior of the ship, but exterior? 11 stories up?

 

[Safeguard]

Good find.
That is VERY damning evidence.
It's possible this was not an accident.

How is it possible this was "not an accident"?
Theres tons of photographic evidence and testimonies that he adored the girl. You think he planned to kill her, and he thought a cruise ship full of other guests was the perfect place to stage a murder and make it look like an accident?

There is absolutely no motive. These people didn't need money. This wasn't a "cash grab". Or an intentional premeditated murder imo.

 

[Midwestmom2019]

Go to the small menu tab that looks like a postage stamp and "unselect" the "strike through" for the part you want left intact....

Good find.
That is VERY damning evidence.
It's possible this was not an accident.

Couldn’t fix it. Sorry.

 

[Safeguard]

sd

 

[LietKynes]

How is it possibley "an not accident"?
Theres tons of photographic evidence and testimonies that he adored the girl. You think he planned to kill her, and he thought a cruise ship full of other guests was the perfect place to stage a murder and make it look like an accident?

There is absolutely no motive. These people didn't need money. This wasn't a "cash grab". Or an intentional premeditated murder imo.

LBM

"...full of other guests ..."
Yes, that would be a perfect place as no one in their right senses and with an ounce of dignity would think this was anything BUT an accident.
We can only speculate but the CC footage will show what happened.

My first guess would have been an accident, but I'm open to other possibilities.

And if not accidental -- I'm thinking it was not a 'cash grab'.
Something else entirely that can be discussed elsewhere.

And the FB posts seemed to change on SA's FB after Chloe's death. There weren't that many of the two of them, and all of a sudden an influx of photos of SA and Chloe.
The family would like to portray him as a doting grandfather -- but we don't know that.

My close friend and former neighbor's daughter is heading for a divorce and from their FB photos you'd think that her son-in-law is a devoted dad and great husband.
I have met him only once and thought he was a very ebullient young man. Charming and enthusiastic --the life of the party.
The sort who'd talk to you and ask you questions as if he truly cared.
But my friend says he's not like that in private and is a scary, abusive control freak.
Photos and testimonies don't always tell the truth.
Imo.