IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #33

[Vidocq]

garage elevator has always had cameras, I used the elevator many times. ...

Are you sure? The guy I talked to, who lived there at the time, thought that the landlord put cameras in the garage, pointed at the elevator, as a reaction to Lauren's disappearance. It's like overkill now. There are two cameras pointed at the elevator door. And, I think maybe one inside the elevator as well. Is there one inside the elevator? Were all of these cameras there before Lauren disappeared, as you recall? What about cameras on the floors? My contact said he thought they were there (on the floors) but not very useful. As I've outlined, the theory I'm trying to develop has Lauren and Mystery Man getting in the garage elevator and traveling to a floor, and then going to a room, without getting on camera. (Or, at least, without the footage being discovered.)

 

[Dixie811]

The same could be said for a long QT attack ... they could have mistaken that for an OD. And that (a long QT attack) could have been precipitated by ingesting klonopin followed by alcohol (and/or coke). I think a head injury might have taken a bit longer to result in death, but I could be wrong. I suppose it would depend on the severity? JMO.

I am betting it varies depending on the individual case. However, I can speak as to what happened to my family members who died from head injuries (brain bleeding as a result of a head injury). It was slow... if their falls had happened at 2 or 3AM, they would not have already been deceased at say 4:30AM. However, they would have likely lost consciousness and been unresponsive to stimulation by then. So, if Lauren did have a brain bleed due to a head injury early that morning, maybe she would not have been deceased by 4:30AM or even 6:00AM... but she could have appeared to have been deceased or nearly so by a drunk and panicking college student. I would imagine every brain bleed can progress at a different rate, though depending on the nature and severity of the impact to the head.

I agree with your statement that a long QT attack or brain bleed could have been mistaken for an overdose.

 

[imkeylime]

I am betting it varies depending on the individual case. However, I can speak as to what happened to my family members who died from head injuries (brain bleeding as a result of a head injury). It was slow... if their falls had happened at 2 or 3AM, they would not have already been deceased at say 4:30AM. However, they would have likely lost consciousness and been unresponsive to stimulation by then. So, if Lauren did have a brain bleed due to a head injury early that morning, maybe she would not have been deceased by 4:30AM or even 6:00AM... but she could have appeared to have been deceased or nearly so by a drunk and panicking college student. I would imagine every brain bleed can progress at a different rate, though depending on the nature and severity of the impact to the head.

I agree with your statement that a long QT attack or brain bleed could have been mistaken for an overdose.

Yes, I agree ... and thanks for sharing your story. I understand. My mother probably died from a brain bleed as well. She fell going to work, worked the day out, and died in her sleep. However, she'd head brain surgery six months prior, so it might have been a residual effect from that. We'll never know.

Realistically, what matters is that LS may have had something go tragically physically wrong and no one did anything about it because she couldn't communicate. Worst case scenario: hitting her head combined with klonopin/alcohol rendered her unable to speak for herself. Sadly, I think that's a pretty good guess. So JR saying she "spoke" at 5N seems suspect to me. JMO.

 

[Ixchel13]

Are you sure? The guy I talked to, who lived there at the time, thought that the landlord put cameras in the garage, pointed at the elevator, as a reaction to Lauren's disappearance. It's like overkill now. There are two cameras pointed at the elevator door. And, I think maybe one inside the elevator as well. Is there one inside the elevator? Were all of these cameras there before Lauren disappeared, as you recall? What about cameras on the floors? My contact said he thought they were there (on the floors) but not very useful. As I've outlined, the theory I'm trying to develop has Lauren and Mystery Man getting in the garage elevator and traveling to a floor, and then going to a room, without getting on camera. (Or, at least, without the footage being discovered.)

if you enter the garage elevator from one of the businesses on the arcade, the elevator will not let you off on any of the floors, just straight down to the garage. Inside your business, you can enter the elevator to take the trash down w/o a key, but once you leave the elevator to do so, you will need a key to get up again unless someone from your business buzzes you back up. Any resident can use the garage elevator, but they also need
a key. So if I'm an employee, my key won't allow me to enter any of the resident floors from the elevator.
Not sure about the other elevators as far as residents, but am sure an employee key will not work on any of the elevators except the garage one.

The cameras were there all along. This elevator is probably the most scrutinized one, because if anyone is stealing anything or bringing up anything they shouldn't be, this would be point zero for doing so, including residents, staff or employees of arcade businesses. But!

Your theory could still be true. Somewhere faaaaar back in this saga, someone interviewed either Elliot the owner of 10th and C or a manager, and they said repairing and maintaining the cameras there was a 24/7
project for maintenance.

To me, this indicates that the cameras were always being compromised. My boss calls this being
"misdirected". Most of the cameras there are the swivel type that can be adjusted. Not sure about 10th and C, but alot of the cameras at frats can be adjusted w/o even using pliers, screwdrivers, etc, but can be pushed up or down with any type of pole, even a broom handle. Some are tightened into position with screws but not all of them.
One thing no one can take away from the age group involved is their ingenuity. If they want the cameras not to work, they won't. I am middle-aged, and if I saw cameras, I would make a note that I am being watched and that would be that. This age group takes it in stride that cameras exist, and also know when to disable them, where to disable them, and how to disable them. This happens frequently. My age group says, "wow, big brother really exists!" and we might fear this, or feel apprehensive. Their generation grew up with big bro.

This also goes for burner phones. These "kids" know from the git go everything can be traced on their phones. They came out of the gate with this knowledge. Parents track them on their phone GPSes , car too. No one had to tell them this, it's second nature. This makes me wonder--did Lauren and Jesse track each other this way? anyway, buying a burner phone at Kroger is how to handle that. In the past, people would have to go all the way to Walmart or another big box store to get one but now they're everywhere.
Some people have mentioned that burner phones are too elaborate a scheme for these POIs, I say it's too easy for them not to have them. I've seen them being used, believe me, they are being utilized. These young drug dealers have read the newspapers (online?!) and all the social media about drug busts and other crimes being solved tracking cell phone records and cell tower pings. They may be immature but they are not tech challenged.

To me, the most difficult thing for them would be the way her body has been hidden so well. Disabling cameras and calls unable to be traced would be easy for them. Bribing a security guard (not accusing, speculating!) would be super easy with all that money. Just like to point out, everyone involved and even most of the supposedly innocent bystanders are multi-millionaires! In fact, I don't think, or at least I can't remember, any case involving kids where there was so much $$$. Lots of cases where victim was rich and POIs poor or vice versa, but this is a case where everyone is heir to millions. And these types of apt. security guards get paid
little more than minimum wage.

So in summary, it really is no surprise to me that cameras aren't working during the most crucial time.
And if phone calls after 3:38 are scarce on record, doesn't surprise me either.
At any rate Vidocq, your theory isn't compromised in the least even if cameras were by the elevator. JMO

I've always been suspicious of DB's Runcible Spoon tweet. So self-serving to place himself there at that time when it could be possible that he was already on his way back to MI. Wouldn't take a genius to figure out someone could have his phone, at the Spoon even, and make that tweet for him.

Having read most of the POI SM, they have a penchant for being clever, and I get the idea that they really think they are more clever than most people, with their puns, double entendres, etc.

A certain vulgar someone on PT and a certain POI both share this gratuitous cleverness and also a passion for fantasy football. That the certain someone on PT was saying the basest, most accusatory and hateful things about Lauren is noteworthy. PT has a huge section for fantasy football. Then we traced this person to other fantasy fb websites . JR and DB invented an ap called "Team Mash" which delivers game results every morning to fantasy sports users. iirc, they were in the process of selling this ap at the time of Lauren's disappearance.

You can play fantasy fb for fun or for $$$. Lots and lots of $$$. It's a billion dollar industry now.

**this post is speculation, JMO, MOO, and not accusing anyone of anything in particular.**

 

[akh]

I tend to believe the answer will be found to be one which requires few steps, people, and connections. The more people a theory involves, the more connections, the more moves, then the less weight I am inclined to put on that theory.

The mitigating circumstance for many 5N theories is the sheer number of complications they present moving forward. The amount of coverup required and detail needed to keep the story tight by multiple people. Plus, they all tend to present a ground zero where LE should've been able to search for and find forensic evidence (which they certainly could've found things but apparently no smoking gun they felt they could act upon).

So the more people that can be eliminated from a theory and it still have potential the more weight I'm inclined to give it.

That's why, to me, the dumpster theory remains viable and especially if you can eliminate some of the 5N guests, and maybe even some of the dwellers, from the theory. It doesn't require vehicles, moving a body across town, the county, or state, etc.. And it doesn't require a lot of criminal planning either. The stalking BF theory remains viable because it really only requires one person to have knowledge of it and maintain the coverup. The jilted suitor would be there as well (someone from the SW confrontation perhaps). Random abduction always remains a possibility simply because nothing else has so far panned out, but it's still a statistically low scenario normally. And I'd have to say the circumstances of the evening would add to the likelihood it's not a random abduction. But still, in absence of anything else, that possibility still has to be there.

 

[Mahouston69]

Exactly.

 

[masootz]

I tend to believe the answer will be found to be one which requires few steps, people, and connections. The more people a theory involves, the more connections, the more moves, then the less weight I am inclined to put on that theory.

The mitigating circumstance for many 5N theories is the sheer number of complications they present moving forward. The amount of coverup required and detail needed to keep the story tight by multiple people. Plus, they all tend to present a ground zero where LE should've been able to search for and find forensic evidence (which they certainly could've found things but apparently no smoking gun they felt they could act upon).

So the more people that can be eliminated from a theory and it still have potential the more weight I'm inclined to give it.

That's why, to me, the dumpster theory remains viable and especially if you can eliminate some of the 5N guests, and maybe even some of the dwellers, from the theory. It doesn't require vehicles, moving a body across town, the county, or state, etc.. And it doesn't require a lot of criminal planning either. The stalking BF theory remains viable because it really only requires one person to have knowledge of it and maintain the coverup. The jilted suitor would be there as well (someone from the SW confrontation perhaps). Random abduction always remains a possibility simply because nothing else has so far panned out, but it's still a statistically low scenario normally. And I'd have to say the circumstances of the evening would add to the likelihood it's not a random abduction. But still, in absence of anything else, that possibility still has to be there.

good summation and i agree with you. the more complicated the scenario, the less likely it is to be true. the pois aren't hardened criminals. if le dangled a "get out of jail free" card to them for cooperating, i'd be willing to bet the farm at least one would have gone for it and implicated the others. the fact that nothing has come out of any of them in all this time leads me to believe they play much less of a role (if any) than some folks think.

 

[Ixchel13]

good summation and i agree with you. the more complicated the scenario, the less likely it is to be true. the pois aren't hardened criminals. if le dangled a "get out of jail free" card to them for cooperating, i'd be willing to bet the farm at least one would have gone for it and implicated the others. the fact that nothing has come out of any of them in all this time leads me to believe they play much less of a role (if any) than some folks think.

yes, I agree w/ you both. Hundreds of posts back, I said that all these many, varied and suspicious things could have happened all night only to have a random perp in the last minutes grab her. Also, someone along the sidelines, that no one would suspect, even a
maintenance worker or pizza guy, or hanger on, could have witnessed not just the events of this night but the same people on other nights, and realize that if they grabbed her, there would be this kind of framing variable with her "friends". The statistic value of a random abduction is low, but really, in most opportunistic type
abductions, minutes, even seconds, is all it takes and probably is almost always the case. IOW, if she wasn't being stalked, the a random abduction would be in a 5 minute window at the most.
and not just totally random. Not accusing anyone, but this is a small town, and
the bar scene a small place. Not even close to being out of the realm of possibilities is a bar employee seeing Lauren intoxicated and interacting with friends this way at the bar, and then later that evening seeing her stumbling down the street barefoot, and thinking that someone else already rufied her or something of that nature and then thinking, "hey, I/we could grab her and everyone will think it's the friends."

 

[Ven]

I would bet the farm that CR and MB had nothing to do with it. Either JR and his guests were all involved, JR is covering for one of his guests, or JW was the stalking boyfriend or ex boyfriend who did it.

 

[imkeylime]

I think of Lauren all the time and will post again soon. But I hope it's OK to post this (mods?), as a young teen in my immediate area has gone missing. There's a little activity here, but not enough on the local/national news, IMO. I'm hoping that anyone in New England, New York, or really anywhere could take a look and keep their eyes open! Here's the WS link:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?254592-RI-Khia-Lake-14-West-Warwick-20-August-2014

Thanks so much!

 

[akh]

I would bet the farm that CR and MB had nothing to do with it. Either JR and his guests were all involved, JR is covering for one of his guests, or JW was the stalking boyfriend or ex boyfriend who did it.

I might not bet the farm they had nothing to do with it... But I sure wouldn't bet the farm they did have anything to do with it either!

 

[Ixchel13]

bumping for Lauren!

 

[Vidocq]

Okay, here's one for you: you all know that the focus of my interest has been on the third floor of Tenth & College apartments. JW, when Lauren went missing in June, was living on the 600 block of East 9th Street, as far as we know. Around mid-August is when moving in and out tends to happen in Bloomington. Well, it would appear that between Lauren's disappearance in June, and December of that same year (2011), JW moved into the third floor of Tenth & College apartments! I base this on a public record, that Cedarview management sued JW for some reason (and a roommate: MK), (filed 12-22-2011) and on the suit they list JW and his roommate's address as 601 N. College, Apt. 319. I find this interesting. What does it mean?

 

[Ixchel13]

Okay, here's one for you: you all know that the focus of my interest has been on the third floor of Tenth & College apartments. JW, when Lauren went missing in June, was living on the 600 block of East 9th Street, as far as we know. Around mid-August is when moving in and out tends to happen in Bloomington. Well, it would appear that between Lauren's disappearance in June, and December of that same year (2011), JW moved into the third floor of Tenth & College apartments! I base this on a public record, that Cedarview management sued JW for some reason (and a roommate: MK), (filed 12-22-2011) and on the suit they list JW and his roommate's address as 601 N. College, Apt. 319. I find this interesting. What does it mean?

good sleuthing Vidocq! BBM--are you saying you were already interested in the 3rd floor, and then found out JW moved there?

The PIs said in their interview that they think JW is lying when he says he was home. People have brought up the possibility that he could have been at 10th and College. Lauren was trying to get in but they wouldn't let her in. I don't believe they were asleep, IMO.
It could be that MB is telling the truth, he took her to JR's. In this scenario, Lauren hasn't hurt her head yet. But she has bruises from falling down. This would match with the PIs saying that Lauren was very much alive in the alley and emerging from the alley with CR.
Maybe, scenario, this is when JR did the "sobriety" test. Maybe it wasn't so much a sobriety test but trying to sober her up enough to start around the corner where her bf would be . If she started down the street a good place to wait would be 45 seconds down the street,
in alley#3 that borders the northeast corner of 10th and C and the arcade there. IMO, she could have hit her head then and that's what witness saw?
That could fit in with Qualters saying that he doesn't deny she saw Lauren hitting her head, but just not at the time they have her on video on the steps with CR.

 

[Vidocq]

good sleuthing Vidocq! BBM--are you saying you were already interested in the 3rd floor, and then found out JW moved there?

Yes, my initial interest in the third floor came from learning that ZO, AB, and BB lived there at the time of Lauren's disappearance, in Apt 317. I assume Apt 317 and 319 are next-door neighbors?

That could fit in with Qualters saying that he doesn't deny she saw Lauren hitting her head, but just not at the time they have her on video on the steps with CR.

Are CR and Lauren on tape on steps at Tenth & College?

 

[Mahouston69]

I think the steps, are the ones off the alley at tenth and college and possibly recorded from cameras on tenth and village (see the last photos I posted)

 

[Vidocq]

That could fit in with Qualters saying that he doesn't deny she saw Lauren hitting her head, but just not at the time they have her on video on the steps with CR.

Is that in the audio from HT that Qualters mentions Lauren and CR on steps? Do you remember were that is exactly? (I never did listen to all those audio files. I probably should.) My understanding is that Lauren was seen in video hitting her head (in alley #2). A second head impact was witnessed by the bar manager witness, while Lauren and Mystery Man (or CR, depending on your view) were sitting on steps, probably the south-east steps of Tenth & College. Which head impact happened first depends on where you place the bar witness's account on the timeline. I place the bar manager witness at 3:38, so I think Lauren fell in the alley on the way to 5 North with CR, between 2:48 and 2:51, and then didn't hit her head the second time until 3:38, when she was last seen by a witness, the bar manager witness, with Mystery Man on the south-east steps of Tenth & College. Those steps, it seems to me, are outside the range of any camera.

 

[akh]

I'm still left wondering if the bar witness could've seen a clock that hadn't been adjusted for DST and so was really 4:30AM instead of the 3:30AM they saw and apparently believed it to be (if reports about stated time are actually accurate as to what was stated).

 

[NJGuy]

Hello all,

I had the chance to visit Bloomington this past summer and the visit ignited my interest in the case. I had followed it loosely but lost track of the case over time. Anyway, I just read through the last 30 pages of this thread and the tireless work that has been done here is amazing. I'm not sure I'm any closer to believing one theory or another, but as it has been mentioned here many times, it all comes back to the location of the body for me. Whether we want to believe it was CR, or her BF and his friends, it's just so tough for me to believe that young men, likely intoxicated and/or enraged, could calmly dispose of a body that has never been found. Is it possible these kids are some criminal masterminds who know exactly how to move a body, avoid cameras, transport the body to a location (either local or a distance of driving), conceal and dispose of the body while daylight is approaching and they are possibly drunk/high? It's just so tough for me to see how this happened, especially with all the searches conducted. What does it all mean? Well, honestly I have no idea. I would guess it's more unlikely she was driven away to some remote location that would require driving on a highway with a body in the trunk or something. However, all of the local searches have turned up nothing. I still believe her body is local somewhere and it just has not been found.

 

[Dixie811]

Hello all,

I had the chance to visit Bloomington this past summer and the visit ignited my interest in the case. I had followed it loosely but lost track of the case over time. Anyway, I just read through the last 30 pages of this thread and the tireless work that has been done here is amazing. I'm not sure I'm any closer to believing one theory or another, but as it has been mentioned here many times, it all comes back to the location of the body for me. Whether we want to believe it was CR, or her BF and his friends, it's just so tough for me to believe that young men, likely intoxicated and/or enraged, could calmly dispose of a body that has never been found. Is it possible these kids are some criminal masterminds who know exactly how to move a body, avoid cameras, transport the body to a location (either local or a distance of driving), conceal and dispose of the body while daylight is approaching and they are possibly drunk/high? It's just so tough for me to see how this happened, especially with all the searches conducted. What does it all mean? Well, honestly I have no idea. I would guess it's more unlikely she was driven away to some remote location that would require driving on a highway with a body in the trunk or something. However, all of the local searches have turned up nothing. I still believe her body is local somewhere and it just has not been found.

Hi NJGuy! I agree with a lot of what you said. Regarding the POI's disposing of the body-- it does make you wonder how in the heck drunk college boys could have done that so well? But let's remember: all they had to do was get lucky.

Another unfortunate thought is that even though the landfill was eventually searched, Lauren was so small that she may have been there and just not been found. Much like Abby Blagg from Grand Junction, CO is believed to have been dumped in the same landfill at which her mother's body was found but Abby was not able to be found during the search, sadly.