Interim discussion regarding questions from the jury and Arias on the stand #81

[Clue Finder 55]

JMO I agree. This is exactly and to the T the way I also think it happened. I think the gun jammed after the first shot, otherwise she would have kept shooting.

I also think most of the back wounds happened as he was looking in the mirror and probably freaking out not realizing she was still going to attack him further.

Then he turned around and got defensive wounds on his hands and probably ended up on the ground trying to crawl away from the maniac.

I know a lot of people have problem with the shell in the blood pool being shiny on top, but it easily could have been kicked there at the very end when she was dragging him back to the shower after he was dead.

Also a long time ago I had mentioned how liquid can migrate and the blood may have migrated around the shell. It may have been in a dry spot and then the blood migrated around it. Sure enough there are cracks inbetween tiles and blood is going down the crack so it may surrounded the shell casing after the fact.

Or it was kicked into the blood pool after the fact. Or maybe the shell was jammed in the gun and when she cleared the jam at the very end, it could have flown in there at end. So many possibilities.

When guns jam it's not from ejecting a spent shell it's because the shell thats being loaded into the chamber jamming

 

[Zuri]

Sending you many many cyber ((((hugs)))

People say this place is therapy and I agree. It is astonishing and heartbreaking how many posters here have been the victim, or a family member of a victim, of such terrible crimes. I'm really glad they were able to catch your attacker.

Would it really be so difficult to take your name off the jury list? Like I said in another post, it took me forever to get my husband's name off the list after he died. Sometimes I used to think about having him exhumed and trundling his coffin down there just so they'd get the message. And that's nothing compared to your experience. Probably in the far distant future this kind of thing will be easily dealt with and people will look back and shake their heads.

If anyone has a problem similar to the one described above, call your state senator or congresspersons office. They have people to help you there. It is truly amazing how a well placed phone call from them can expeditiously handle all sorts of things. I am truly sorry you had to go through this for so long.

 

[Snoopy1]

Not to be gross, but have you ever seen the infamous R. Budd Dwyer suicide footage? Dwyer was treasurer of the State of Pennsylvania in the late 80s caught up in a corruption scandal over procurement contracts. He held a press conference, rambled on a bit, then reached into a manila envelope, pulled out a .357 magnum revolver and, before anyone could stop him, put the gun in his mouth and pulled the trigger.

The effect was instantaneous. He dropped like someone kicked out his knees. The bullet went through the roof of his mouth, through his sinuses and exited out the top of his head just behind his frontal lobes.

Not only did he drop immediately, but the amount of blood that came from not his mouth, or the top of his head, but out his nose was so copious that, quite frankly, it looked fake.

Although he used a larger, more powerful bullet, the track of the bullet is very similar to that of Travis Alexander, just with entrance and exit reversed, both transversed the brain and sinuses.

Even with a smaller round the cavitation through the entire brain would have been like being hit with a baseball bat. The amount of hemorrhaging through the nose and mouth would be massive and not the "coughed up blood" seen in the sink, which seems to be a result of the knife strike to the inferior vena cava that probably nicked lung structure, the esophagus, or both.

I just can't see anyone being shot in the head, get up from a squatting position in a shower stall, fight their way out of the stall and pause at the mirror for a look.

Since the "shot first" argument doesn't agree with the Medical Examiner's findings, precedents in gunshot wounds, the timeline of the murder and a whole bunch of stuff, can someone explain to me the significance (or agenda) of insisting the head shot came first?

BBM - which is why I believe he was stabbed first, the shot to the head was to "finish him off" cause he could have been making noises as air was escaping his throat.
If he WERE shot in the head first, got out and went to the mirror, there would be a crap ton more blood.

I am sticking with my theory, she stabbed him in the chest, he put his hands out to defend himself (defensive wonds on his hands) as he was getting out of the shower. I DO think he went to the mirror/sink, but only to balance himself and mybe catch his breath type of move, coughing up blood and then she continued to stab him in the back. At that point I think he dropped to his knees (she said he was crawling on his knees.... little bit of truth in every lie) trying to get to the door and she stood above him stabbing him more as he got closer to the carpet, where she lifted his head and slit his throat. She then drags him back to the shower, tosses him in and shoots him in the head.

JMO

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

BBM

Over 48 years of shaving I've nicked myself quite a few times. Maybe I should have called the suicide hotline.

I'm sorry, but Jodi won't get any sympathy from me. Wouldn't having hot wax on your hooha and then ripped off more painful than a little nick? Ouch I cringe just at the the thought of it.

 

[grammieto5]

Not to seem weird, in some pictures of Travis, he looks like my son. It really creeps me out.

Oh I know how you feel, there is one of Travis where he looks exactly like my G-son, It is a very weird feeling!

 

[Nali87]

IMO, this is WHY you hire a lawyer. lawyers want to win cases. they don't just say 'so what do you want to do here? how do we handle this?'

no, you hire an attorney, you tell him/her the truth (because it's absolutely safe with atty/client privilege) and you let him/her do the job of defending you. you help, you take their advice, provide them with information you know, etc. but this is how they earn their living----and why if you have the means, you get the best defense attorney you can.

I understand that but what I mean is, if your client is deadset that THIS is what happened "he was a pedophile, he was abusive, I had to shoot him!" what else can a defense lawyer do than try to do the best he can with what his client tells him happened?

And I don't think laywers are allowed knowingly to lie/let their clients lie on the stand so if he knows the truth, he can't encourage her to try the insanity defense and testify a certain way on the stand.

"The lawyer is skeptical of the client’s story, but he’s under no obligation to fact-check the client. Rather, the lawyer can argue that it is his duty as a “zealous” advocate to accept the client’s version of the story, and try to produce evidence to support that story.So, to recap, a lawyer should not lie, commit perjury, or encourage others to lie or commit perjury.One thing a lawyer cannot do, however, is encourage the client to get up on the stand and give false testimony. In that situation, the client commits perjury, but the lawyer commits a distinct crime known as “suborning perjury,” and it’s a very serious offense."
http://legallad.quickanddirtytips.com/can-lawyers-lie.aspx (not the best source, but grabbed the first thing on google lol)

IMO

 

[katiedid2]

I dont think the evidence supports he was shot in the head while in the shower. I think the evidence supports that she knifed him first and the gunshot was done after he was able to get out of the shower. The casing position shows he was not in the shower when shot imo.

In fact I think it was when she drug him back to the bathroom. Imo she was hearing some agonal breathing escaping from his airways and thought he was still alive and she shot him before putting his dead body back in the shower.

But I do agree she tricked him into getting in the shower so he would be in a small confined space and surrounded on three sides with no way out but toward her holding the knife.


IMO

I don't think the shot first isn't going to work for her. I think it makes it more heinous to the jury!
Because she stabbed him in the back! Which infers that she caught him off guard.she Brutally tortured the poor man causing him to suffer immensely! I know ive cut my finger with a knife before! it hurts like heck can you imagine how he suffered.Than she goes on to shoot him! And even if she stabbed him in the heart first? It's still brutally over kill. Than she wants the jury to believe that she was going to kill herself! Which is a big lie! She had two guns! One she stole from her grandfather and one she purchased. She could have killed herself easily after killing travis! So that's a bogus claim. I often wondered ! During the trial! How in the world could she go to Ryan's in Utah and foreplay with him with no change in demeanour. I now know from seeing her talk to Martinez! About the brutal murder! That she has no feelings. I don't know does anyone think?? That she has any idea that she will be found guilty!
P.s
In one of her t.v interviews! Dunno which one! She stated that if she got life! She would prefer the death penalty! Than to spend the rest of her life in prison? Someone else may recall verbatim.

And also during one of her interview with florez she said " if I did it I would beg for the death penalty"
I say she's doing a dern good job of convincing the jury to grant her that wish.

 

[kscornfed]

I agree, although I suppose you could make an argument that there are all kinds of "knowing" that someone is lying. Maybe he tells himself since he couldn't prove she's lying, he has to accept her word. It's ridiculous, yes, since there's plenty of evidence that she lies. Maybe he just wants so desperately to believe he can win this case, that he ignores what's in front of his eyes. Plus, apparently Jennifer Wilmott and that mitigation specialist are in favor of Jodi's defense.

I don't think Nurmi's going to get in any trouble for allowing her to lie on the stand. I'm just wondering if he could have been taken off the case if he had gone to the judge. It would interesting to know.

i have an old friend who's a criminal defense attorney and has been for over 30 years. he's a very good one, too. he told me once that at least 80% of his clients were guilty. that doesn't change his job. (he also knows i don't hold most criminal defense attorneys in high esteem, and we're still friends.)

 

[Hatfield]

When guns jam it's not from ejecting a spent shell it's because the shell thats being loaded into the chamber jamming

Normally that is true. However, I have had shells jam in many different ways. True that most of the time it is the new shell not being successful in getting in chamber but I have had empty casings get hung up as well.

 

[Mykeru]

I have asked several times, but can't get a response that makes sense...why would Jodi take pictures of Travis in the shower without his knowledge? Nothing about this hypothesis makes sense to me. I can't understand why people think Jodi would have done this especially since neither side has suggested It. And no, I don't accept "that's just crazy Jodi" as a good answer!

Why it doesn't make sense:
1. Use of flash
2. He's looking right in the camera at the end
3. He's clearly posing in the pics of his back
4. She deleted the pictures (not blackmail)
5. She planned to kill him....in the shower and this was a way to get him in there and not have him be suspicious about why she's in the bathroom with him

Please, someone enlighten me.

Well, I think it's obvious he knows she's there after the mouth agape photo.

I think the problem is the only way we know what happened is the forensic evidence, including these intriguing and ambiguous photos, and the one surviving participant who is the very definition of an "unreliable narrator".

The camera doesn't lie, but it doesn't really give a narrative either. Somewhere in there what happened happened, but the images are silent, without context and maddeningly subject to interpretation.

The thing is, you can't get married to your supposition. I find the idea that Arias came back and surrepticiously photographed to be intriguing, but you are right, that assumption doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

Jodi Arias didn't leave a lot to chance. If she arranged to photoshoot it was to get him into the shower stall, boxed in and with evidence easily contained if everything went to plan. If she snuck up and took photos the purpose was the same: To give her an excuse to be there when he was most vulnerable.

There's any number of likely ways this came about. It was 5:30. She had put her things back into the car, if she took much out at all. Maybe the oatmeal and banana didn't go that far and she suggested the go get something to eat before she "hit the road" so he would get cleaned up...

Was it planned, was it opportunistic? A lot of what Jodi Arias did was a combination of scheming and happenstance. Some things were planned and worked, some things just happened.

The photos are "what really happened", but not being able to figure out what they mean, to resolve them into a sort of motion picture, is maddening.

 

[sacrablue]

I dont think the evidence supports he was shot in the head while in the shower. I think the evidence supports that she knifed him first and the gunshot was done after he was able to get out of the shower. The casing position shows he was not in the shower when shot imo.

In fact I think it was when she drug him back to the bathroom. Imo she was hearing some agonal breathing escaping from his airways and thought he was still alive and she shot him before putting his dead body back in the shower.

But I do agree she tricked him into getting in the shower so he would be in a small confined space and surrounded on three sides with no way out but toward her holding the knife.

IMO

It would be so chancy to attack a man in a small enclosure. She is left handed and I would need to see which way the door opened but not an easy job to get a mortal wound off by the assailant. Potential struggle degree would be very high.

 

[Maryann123]

I have asked several times, but can't get a response that makes sense...why would Jodi take pictures of Travis in the shower without his knowledge? Nothing about this hypothesis makes sense to me. I can't understand why people think Jodi would have done this especially since neither side has suggested It. And no, I don't accept "that's just crazy Jodi" as a good answer!

Why it doesn't make sense:
1. Use of flash
2. He's looking right in the camera at the end
3. He's clearly posing in the pics of his back
4. She deleted the pictures (not blackmail)
5. She planned to kill him....in the shower and this was a way to get him in there and not have him be suspicious about why she's in the bathroom with him


Please, someone enlighten me.

Not only that, but in order to get these pictures, the shower door had to be open. Who takes a shower and leaves the door open? Travis was too neat to allow water to run all over the bathroom floor. This makes no sense to me.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

When guns jam it's not from ejecting a spent shell it's because the shell thats being loaded into the chamber jamming

It seems the gun was firing as it should and ejecting as it should.

I think the only reason she shot him in the head was she still heard some agonal breathing when she was dragging him back to the bathroom. Imo, I agree with the ME and it is a very good possibilty that he was already dead or taking his last breath when shot.

She probably checked after she shot him and he was no longer making agonal sounds.

IMO

 

[luvtenniss]

A gun demands attention. If JA showed up with a knife the safest place for Travis would be to stay in the shower. He would be crazy to come out. There is no room to maneuver a knife in a tiny enclosure.

And this could be JA's teeny little bit of truth in the vast amount of lies. There was no blood yet when she shot him. He did come at her like a linebacker, although he was really just trying to get out and away from her (and then headed to the mirror where she started stabbing him).

 

[G&AMom]

If it was a woman brandishing a knife at me while I was in that enclosure I would close the door and hold it first, think about the situation, talk to the attacker, come up with a plan and proceed once I had more control of the situation. I would want to use the door for my defense and hit the woman with it when the time was right.

Maybe if someone has military training or is a police officer, I could see them doing that. Not sure if an ordinary person could count on thinking that fast.

 

[Clue Finder 55]

Here is someone who has portayed Jodi writing in her diary I thought it was funny.
It was good for a chuckle.Borrowed this from another site.This is not Jodi writing this.

Dear Diary,

Well, I must say that these jurors are starting to get on my nerves. I tried to be my usual peppy, happy go lucky self and look on the bright side, but I have just about had it. I'm starting to feel like I want to get stabby again. I wanted to say that today, but Nurmi felt it would be in poor taste. Considering Travis "passed away" from me getting stabby. Whatev.

I mean, really, I don't know why they keep asking me if I have memory problems. Um, I think I proved that my memory is awesome. Don't they remember all the details I gave before? So what if I have memory problems about things that make me look guilty? That is to be expected. It's part of the post traumatic stress I went under when I murdered Travis. It was no ordinary murder. Have they seen the pictures? That was very traumatic for me. I'm the real victim here. I know the domestic violence experts will testify and set them straight. I just have to put up with Fartinez until then. I really wish I could kill him. No, really. I think about it every single night.

Also, do they forget the abuse I suffered while Travis was still alive? That **** in my eyes really stung. And, being woken up to oral sex was very irritating. I was having a very good dream and Travis completely interrupted it. The straw that broke the camels back was when he was giving me oral sex and he hadn't even shaved yet! He felt like sandpaper on my thighs. Sandpaper!!!! That is abuse NO woman should ever have to be subjected to. Is it any wonder to them that I finally fought back?

I am grateful for the long weekend. I have a lot of work to do on the autobiography I am writing. I think I am going to call it "Mortal Fear." It will be a best seller no doubt. I've only written a little bit so far. Just 2,000 pages. I've only made it to my elementary school years. I better get busy. I'd like to have it done by the time I am set free. I know the jurors will want autographed copies.

Till next time,
Jodi

 

[JusticeJunkie]

IIFC, she even refused to take the IQ test, but eventually did. What an ego that lying murder has!!

 

[Dum-Dum Sucker]

:furious: UGH. Today on ID I watched the Dateline NBC about Wanda Darling's murder. Hubby of 4 months (?) shoved her off a cliff to her death for the insurance $$.

He had tried to drown her in a kayak "accident" the previous day.

The jury found him not-guilty.

They believed he was guilty, but that there was not enough evidence to prove it.

Another DUMB-S&%#, Pinellas Pinhead Jury that needed a DVD of the crime as it was being committed in order convict. :banghead:

Based on their Questions, it seems like JA's jury has a better grasp on the fine art of INFERENCE. Let's hope so, eh? :seeya:

 

[Colt46]

Her cell phone records showed she called him several times, and one of their conversations was over a half-hour long, so not just leaving a voice mail message. She might have made these phone calls while still in California. She figured he wouldn't tell his roommates, who would be sure to ask him why he would do something so idiotic, and in fact he DIDN't tell them. But whether she called him ahead of time or not, I just can't see him letting her in the front door unless she gave him a really good reason to do so. I think an apology fits the bill.

Do we know who initiated those calls? My brain is so 'scrambled', I can't remember if there was any communication between the two of them after Travis's scathing text message on May 26.

Originally, I theorized that JA was planning a stealth attack, ala Betty Broderick. In and out with Grandpa's gun . And off to SLC. But I believe one of the roommates was in the house the night she arrived. Then again, what would stop her from shooting the roommate, too?

But I agree with you...I can't imagine Travis allowing her to step foot in his home. He was done with her, and she knew it. The only way she could gain entry would be to come unnannounced. I doubt that Travis would have turned her away in the middle of the night. He was a softie and she knew exactly how to manipulate him.

 

[ChinaBlue]

..........................................................................................................
Feb. 4/ABC News: "The photo of 'Travis Alexander's' and 'Travis', both written in the possessive form, will be relied on by our experts discussing the controlling nature of the relationship (between Alexander and Arias), the possessive nature of the relationship, and what that does to a woman," defense attorney Jennifer Willmott said today after the prosecution objected to the photos. Prosecutor Juan Martinez asked Dworkin whether he knew when the words were put on the shirt and panties. When Dworkin said he could not determine when they were created, Martinez suggested that could have been done after Alexander was killed.
.........................................................................................................
Well, I hope I don't miss the gotcha moment of JM producing another of those t-shirts showing "Being Better Blog" on the back, if they exist, in rebuttal.

Is anyone positive that JM knows about the back of the t-shirt? If only the pictures were seen by all attorneys and the expert witnesses, this might be a logical conclusion (possessve, controlling). If JM has not seen (or heard of) the actual, physical t-shirt, we might have a serious glitch in rebuttal.