GUILTY Italy- Finnegan Elder, 19 & Gabriel Hjorth, 18, US students, police murder, 26 Jul 2019 *guilty* *new trial 2023*

[CoverMeCagney]

How was that possible? Police officers check all luggage....

Pretty sure you can pack a knife in hold/checked luggage. Just not in cabin/hand luggage.

EDIT sorry LB, didn't see you'd already replied!

 

[otto]

It is okay to travel with a knife in checked luggage. Flying out of Amsterdam a couple of years ago, I made the mistake of having a knife in my carry on luggage. I could either give up the knife, or check the bag. I kept the knife.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

It is okay to travel with a knife in checked luggage. Flying out of Amsterdam a couple of years ago, I made the mistake of having a knife in my carry on luggage. I could either give up the knife, or check the bag. I kept the knife.

Meanwhile I had a tiny pair of nail clippers confiscated from my hand luggage in Bangkok - like, what dastardly deed was I going to do with those?!

Anyway. Who takes a big sharp knife on holiday? Apart from my friend Julie who takes most of her kitchen on a self catering holiday. But apart from that... why would a teen take a knife like that abroad? I doubt it was for preparing food.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Elder’s and Hjorth’s stories sync about the drug deal, the stolen backpack, and the plan to meet Brugiatelli. Then, things diverge.

Natale Hjorth, who is a dual American-Italian citizen, though he has never lived in Italy, says he had no idea Elder was carrying a knife when they went to meet who they thought would be Brugiatelli. But Elder says they had both agreed to take it with them "just in case."

Police say that given the size of the weapon they doubt that Natale Hjorth could have missed the fact his friend had it on him. Elder also accuses his friend of finding the drug connection based on friends he knows from Natale Hjorth’s summers visiting his grandfather in Italy. Natale Hjorth instead claims the drug buy was all his friend’s idea.

Americans Jailed for Stabbing Italian Cop Turn on Each Other

Photos leaked show Natale Hjorth blindfolded in police custody, which is against Italian law. The local police have opened an internal investigation not only into why the young American was blindfolded, but who leaked the photo. Preliminary reports from that internal investigation are that nothing improper happened and that the officer who placed the blindfold on Natale Hjorth has been reassigned. It is yet unclear who took the photo.

 

[Kittybunny]

Just heard about this case this morning. I found this to be a really good and informative article on both the one defendant and how everything went down. MOO - these two kids were reckless, careless, and didn't give a crap who they hurt. Out of control.

https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/Suspect-in-Rome-police-killing-had-attacked-a-14206243.php

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

I think these rich Mill Valley parents send their offspring overseas to get them away from their local drug contacts/drug milieu. Didn't work so well.

Quite an assumption.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

Stupid, stupid boys.

Anyone carrying a knife in public should be locked up, end of.

I disagree. My dad carried a penknife for 25+ years and has never committed any type of violent crime. I know loads of people who carry a knife for very practical reasons. I don't think a blanket statement that they all should be locked up is very reasonable.

 

[Hatfield]

It is okay to travel with a knife in checked luggage. Flying out of Amsterdam a couple of years ago, I made the mistake of having a knife in my carry on luggage. I could either give up the knife, or check the bag. I kept the knife.

I wish I would have known that about the checked luggage when I found myself walking around the front lobby of an airport with my forgotten nice pocket knife that I ended up throwing in the trash bin before heading to the gate.

 

[Hatfield]

Elder’s and Hjorth’s stories sync about the drug deal, the stolen backpack, and the plan to meet Brugiatelli. Then, things diverge.

Natale Hjorth, who is a dual American-Italian citizen, though he has never lived in Italy, says he had no idea Elder was carrying a knife when they went to meet who they thought would be Brugiatelli. But Elder says they had both agreed to take it with them "just in case."

Police say that given the size of the weapon they doubt that Natale Hjorth could have missed the fact his friend had it on him. Elder also accuses his friend of finding the drug connection based on friends he knows from Natale Hjorth’s summers visiting his grandfather in Italy. Natale Hjorth instead claims the drug buy was all his friend’s idea.

Americans Jailed for Stabbing Italian Cop Turn on Each Other

Photos leaked show Natale Hjorth blindfolded in police custody, which is against Italian law. The local police have opened an internal investigation not only into why the young American was blindfolded, but who leaked the photo. Preliminary reports from that internal investigation are that nothing improper happened and that the officer who placed the blindfold on Natale Hjorth has been reassigned. It is yet unclear who took the photo.

JMO
I would normally give the Italian authorities the benefit of the doubt but after the Amanda Knox fiasco and after seeing the photo of him blindfolded I cannot believe that any police protocol involves blindfolding a suspect.

If there is something in their policies I would like to see that.

The strange thing about it is what purpose was the blindfold for? Scare him? Bring him to a secret place for interrogation?

I have no idea why they would do that with the blindfold. And yet there is the photo of him with a blindfold on.

 

[FrostOwl]

I disagree. My dad carried a penknife for 25+ years and has never committed any type of violent crime. I know loads of people who carry a knife for very practical reasons. I don't think a blanket statement that they all should be locked up is very reasonable.

So you are okay with that a 19-year-old seems to have had no qualms about taking a 17 cm long knife with him from home, and to carry it in public places, nor to use it against another human being? If not, what kind of knives do you consider is okay to carry in public places (with the exception of dull silverware knives), and how old should a person be, and should the person have a need for the knife for some specific reason?

In Sweden knives (and other objects) that can be used as weapons are forbidden in public places, and persons under the age of 21 are not allowed to buy, or to be given, such knives.

 

[JerseyGirl]

Italian cop allegedly killed by American teens was unarmed, police say

Police and prosecutors said they were still investigating the events that led up the stabbing of Carabinieri police officer Mario Cerciello Rega, 35 and released an image of the alleged murder weapon.

Elder explained that he brought the knife with him to the meeting because he was “afraid something could go wrong.” He then used the knife, which he had brought with him to Italy from the U.S., because he was afraid, police said.

Police said they found what they believe is the knife used in the attack hidden in the walls of the teen’s hotel room. Given the size of the knife, they believe it was impossible that Natale-Hjorth didn’t know that Elder had it on him.

Italian officials said that they were also investigating why Natale-Hjorth had been illegally blindfolded after he was apprehended.

 

[FrostOwl]

The strange thing about it is what purpose was the blindfold for? Scare him? Bring him to a secret place for interrogation?

I read in some article it was just for a couple of minutes, and it was to avoid him seeing some kind of documents or similar, regarding the case. Boy, 18, pictured blindfolded and cuffed after 'murdering cop' while on holiday | Metro News

 

[Hatfield]

I read in some article it was just for a couple of minutes, and it was to avoid him seeing some kind of documents or similar, regarding the case. Boy, 18, pictured blindfolded and cuffed after 'murdering cop' while on holiday | Metro News

Thank you. That does give their explanation.

"Provincial Commander Francesco Gargaro said blinfolding suspects was ‘illegal’ but that it had been an honest mistake made by a cop to stop Natale-Hjorth from seeing sensitive documents related to his case."

Boy, 18, pictured blindfolded and cuffed after 'murdering cop' while on holiday | Metro News

 

[PastTense]

"Provincial Commander Francesco Gargaro said blinfolding suspects was ‘illegal’ but that it had been an honest mistake made by a cop to stop Natale-Hjorth from seeing sensitive documents related to his case."

Sensitive documents that you don't want suspects to see are extremely common in criminal investigations. The police have no problem dealing with this issue the overwhelming majority of times. But this time they need to blindfold the suspect? I think Gargaro is lying and the police are doing this solely to humiliate the suspect--because he killed a cop.

 

[FrostOwl]

The situation was most likely very tense, and people, even police, doesn't always act correctly in emotional situations. How do American police act when hunting, arresting and interrogating police killers? Are all caught alive, and handled carefully and never humiliated?

 

[10ofRods]

Reading about prison through the eyes of Knox, it sounded more like a commune where they cooked together, wrote and performed plays, had social events and I believe a band visited the prison to entertain them. It wasn't a vacation, but it was not a harsh prison environment. It might be worse for men.

Italian newspapers are saying that the prosecutor will seek Italy's most secure/least comfortable prison. They're calling it a "hard labor" prison. Not like what Amanda endured at all (if that's what happens).

 

[10ofRods]

Quite an assumption.

Yes, I should have said MOO. And my belief is that for years, the parents have been sending them to expensive summer camps, so this was cheaper. A way to get them out of the house.

I really don't think this was their first trip to the (drug) rodeo, but they were outplayed in a foreign culture (and woefully naïve about drug deals in tourist sections of Rome).

Even if the only previous drug was alcohol (see the SF Chronicle account of the neighbors' view on Elder's alcohol use), having a "military style knife" in your luggage, for use in an urban setting, is a big red flag to me. Elder, in particular, is bad news. MOO.

The fact that the other teen had family near Rome (and dual citizenship and pretty good Italian) is also interesting and I bet Elder's family thought it was a great idea to send their alcohol-loving (and certainly drug-interested) teens from suburban Marin County to...Rome...without adult supervision. My first thought was that this was the Marin equivalent of sending high schoolers to Mexico (Spring Break or otherwise). If they're drinking at home (illegally) and not handling it well (drunk in public), sending them to a foreign country where they can drink legally is not a great decision.

But I know, I'm a wet blanket and it's important that kids have fun. Parents want the kids to have fun (but not in their house, right?)

 

[10ofRods]

JMO
I would normally give the Italian authorities the benefit of the doubt but after the Amanda Knox fiasco and after seeing the photo of him blindfolded I cannot believe that any police protocol involves blindfolding a suspect.

If there is something in their policies I would like to see that.

The strange thing about it is what purpose was the blindfold for? Scare him? Bring him to a secret place for interrogation?

I have no idea why they would do that with the blindfold. And yet there is the photo of him with a blindfold on.

Italian press says the police officer has now been reassigned and the other police involved are being investigated. People were obviously pretty upset at the time.

One policeman says there were people or things in the room they didn't want him to see. But it's still against protocol (and I think, also Italian law) to blindfold a detainee.

 

[FrostOwl]

If you (or your friend) use a knife against another human being, why disbelief when told that the person is dead? "Really dead? Dead dead?" was Natale Hjort's reaction when told that the police officer had died. Americans accused of Rome murder reacted with tears, disbelief: prosecutor - Reuters

There seems to be more articles about how upsetting it is that N-H was blindfolded and photographed than there is about the fact that he is an accomplice in a murder case.

 

[CoverMeCagney]

There seems to be more articles about how upsetting it is that N-H was blindfolded and photographed than there is about the fact that he is an accomplice in a murder case.

Yes, and it disgusts me that anyone would focus on that more than the fact a police officer has been murdered.

So he got blindfolded for a few minutes. Big deal. At least he’s not dead.