Jahi’s family wants her declared 'alive again’

[Donjeta]

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_24861233/how-brain-death-is-affecting-jahi-mcmaths-body

This article was in the new news section of a google search but it's an old article, just updated two days ago for some reason.

Anyway, we had been wondering if she was receiving hormones and there's this quote:

To support the body that they fought so hard to save, Jahi's family has authorized some nutritional support, including potassium, minerals and hormones. She's also getting antibiotics to combat a possible infection.

 

[TJL]

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_24861233/how-brain-death-is-affecting-jahi-mcmaths-body

This article was in the new news section of a google search but it's an old article, just updated two days ago for some reason.

Anyway, we had been wondering if she was receiving hormones and there's this quote:

Yeah, it was also discovered a couple weeks ago IBRF's "groundbreaking" procedures they used on a 28 (or 29) year old woman where they claim to have reversed the effects of BD, by using a form of electrical stimulus to the brain as well as injecting the body with many different artificial hormones, steroids, and other chemicals normally produced by or stimulated by the brain. So it's assumed they're probably doing all the same things to Jahi's body.

This also made for a really interesting point: Dolan was claiming that Jahi is the "first person" this has ever happened with or occurred in (brain death showing signs of recovery based on their evidence.) I guess someone forgot to mention to Dolan that IBRF (Defina, Machado, Fellus, et al) did this same stuff and made the same claims with a 28-year old woman a couple years ago.

 

[K_Z]

Ever since it became known early on that IBRF, Defina, and now disgraced ex-MD Fellus, were using their experimental protocols on Jahi, I have suspected that part of the agreement reached by them with the family probably included the agreement for IBRF (Defina) to write up and publicize the results of their experimental protocol on Jahi's body.

Research which, by the way, conveniently doesn't need to be run through traditional institutional review boards, and other research approval bodies, because their research subjects are dead, and because the researchers aren't affiliated with any universities. And now, since Fellus has lost his medical license, they have to assemble a new team to attempt to lend scientific and medical legitimacy to their experiments. IMO, Jahi and her family were ripe for exploitation in this kind of situation. Legally dead, confirmed by six different docs, and the courts, but with a family committed to continuing somatic support as long as possible, and with a mother with apparently strong belief in miracles, or deep in denial. Bonus that the research subject's body is rather young, with a strong heart. Situation completely ripe for exploitation, IMO.

No matter what happens over the next months, Jahi will continue to live on in the medical literature and the media for many years. The legal and public efforts of the family have made Jahi into a medical curiosity, a legal oddity, a religious activist cause, and a political symbolic Terri Schaivo-type figure, because of the publicity they sought, and still seek. I think most people know how the story will end, but the last chapter is still being written.

It will be interesting to see if Dolan follows thru with his comments about intending to pursue some kind of complaint or court action in the next 2-3 weeks.

 

[Harmony 2]

Mod note: I removed more than 10 posts dealing with religion. Keep religion out of the discussion.

 

[K_Z]

JMO but I'm not convinced this case ultimately has anything to do with the family's religious rights to believe that braindead people are not dead until cardiac death and that life support measures should be continued until God turns the heart off.

That's just one of the arguments Dolan and Byrne et al. pulled out of their hat to argue in court. The family may or may not believe so but it seems to be rather irrelevant to their views of Jahi's situation as they're not arguing that life support should be continued despite her brain death, they're arguing that she is not brain dead.

It's my understanding that this is pretty much the only argument they have available to return to the original court, Judge Grillo's court, to attempt a reversal, and thereby attempt to qualify for financial benefits. NW stated in several interviews that this financial support was the goal of the legal maneuvers to have Jahi declared "alive again. " Being that it's not really possible to argue that 6 different docs and the courts were wrong, they had to argue the technicality that they were RIGHT 10 months ago, but that it couldn't have been known that death was IRREVERSIBLE.

Now, Dolan would have to do some Olympic level verbal gymnastics to try to find a legitimate legal principle to bring "irreversible" to a federal court. But I think he's working all that out right now. And my personal opinion is that a potential federal filing will come at this from some angle of civil rights or discrimination of a protected category, or some such thing.

There was a delay of 2+days between the events of cardiac arrest and the first diagnosis of brain death. It could be a simple thing like arguing Jahi's rights were somehow violated when she was still officially living during those 48 hours or so. And the violation of those *rights* produced the current situation, and the need for financial compensation. Or that NW's civil rights were somehow violated, which had lead to these extraordinary financial burdens. Don't underestimate the lengths this attorney and family will try, IMO. They still have quite a while to pursue other legal angles until switching gears and working on wrongful death. They aren't even ready to look at malpractice yet.

Dolan himself said recently (paraphrasing) that this case is the most interesting and difficult of his career. He's not ready to stop the legal process yet, either, IMO.

 

[wendiesan]

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_24861233/how-brain-death-is-affecting-jahi-mcmaths-body

This article was in the new news section of a google search but it's an old article, just updated two days ago for some reason.

Anyway, we had been wondering if she was receiving hormones and there's this quote:

So, her menarche could have happened because she was, in fact, receiving hormonal treatments. Not because her body was itself producing the necessary hormones.

 

[Hiandmighty]

I think it is probably a combination of her age, weight and hormone injections/supplements. I don't think they would have produced menarche in, say, an 8 year old...

 

[TJL]

So, her menarche could have happened because she was, in fact, receiving hormonal treatments. Not because her body was itself producing the necessary hormones.

Absolutely. Signs of puberty were stimulated and observed in the BD boy that was apparently held on mechanical support for 20 some years, and he was far from starting when BD occurred. Jahi was on the cusp of starting, if she hadn't already started at the time of her death (judging by body characteristics, she likely had already started or was just mere weeks away).

Women have their menstrual cycles manipulated all the time by artificial chemicals, hormones, etc. It's not at all outside the realm of possibility that the chemicals required to begin such processes can do so when supplemented artificially.

Also, I think it's extremely important to remember that the suggestions or comments of menarche are all purely speculative, based on unsubstantiated claims by a mother who also claims her BD child is not actually deceased. She and/or her attorney claims this is in medical records, but this could also mean a thousand different things, including a mere note from a home-care nurse stating, "Cleaned blood off sheets which appeared to be excreted from you-know-where." It could even be as simple as, "Woke up from nap and mother stated she changed Jahi's pad and it had blood on it."

We really do not know what this evidence is they claim to have, and it's very telling that they would broadcast such an incredible thing for the whole world to know about ("my teenage daughter just started her period!" - who does that, really?!?!). It's even more telling that they would do this, without providing any evidence to support this claim - credible or not. No a single shred.

What we do have for evidence, however, is instagram posts from Jahi's cousin back in February where she made the claim that Jahi had started her period. This IG post lasted all of a day and was quickly deleted, but we did screenshot it for recordkeeping. And then we have Dolan/NW claiming with the writ of error coram nobis that Jahi started her period 2 or 3 months ago. What happened to February? Or did they just forget? Or more conveniently, it wouldn't have helped them very much to make such a claim the month after her death, as opposed to 9-10 months later. By convincing everyone several months went by before this happened, it lent the only credibility possible to their claim. A month after death, well, that was just strong evidence that she had already started or was within weeks of starting.

 

[Lippy]

JMO but I'm not convinced this case ultimately has anything to do with the family's religious rights to believe that braindead people are not dead until cardiac death and that life support measures should be continued until God turns the heart off.

That's just one of the arguments Dolan and Byrne et al. pulled out of their hat to argue in court. The family may or may not believe so but it seems to be rather irrelevant to their views of Jahi's situation as they're not arguing that life support should be continued despite her brain death, they're arguing that she is not brain dead.

Nailah's reasons for wanting to keep Jahi on life support have evolved over the course of the last 10 months. The early arguments had nothing to do with religious beliefs. Early arguments had everything to do with Nailah and what she believed or perceived.
This December 20, 2013 video was made when Nailah was truly grieving and speaking from her heart about Jahi and even though her reasons show cringeworthy ignorance, they are her reasons before the manipulation of the public started.

http://abc7news.com/archive/9368414/

 

[TJL]

[/B]

It's my understanding that this is pretty much the only argument they have available to return to the original court, Judge Grillo's court, to attempt a reversal, and thereby attempt to qualify for financial benefits. NW stated in several interviews that this financial support was the goal of the legal maneuvers to have Jahi declared "alive again. " Being that it's not really possible to argue that 6 different docs and the courts were wrong, they had to argue the technicality that they were RIGHT 10 months ago, but that it couldn't have been known that death was IRREVERSIBLE.

I agree this is all financially motivated. And then we have Dolan trying to tug at heartstrings saying they "need this to happen so Jahi can come home to California." What's stopping Jahi's body from being taken back to CA? Or rather, WHO'S stopping that from happening? The answer is simple: Nailah. They don't want that body anywhere NEAR CA.

Now, Dolan would have to do some Olympic level verbal gymnastics to try to find a legitimate legal principle to bring "irreversible" to a federal court. But I think he's working all that out right now. And my personal opinion is that a potential federal filing will come at this from some angle of civil rights or discrimination of a protected category, or some such thing.

Also agree. The postponement and continuance he requested (and subsequently dropped very quietly) wasn't about needing time to get his "team of experts" educated on BD determination requirements. They knew darn good and well what would pass the smell test and what wouldn't, and they were equally aware the "evidence" they had qualified as nothing more that hearsay. (Choppy, edited cell-phone videos with no date/time stamps of a nearly totally concealed body and the mother yelling at the body to do things she could easily predict the body would do anyways.)

It is sad that our legal system has sort of degenerated into one where if logic and common sense don't work for a case, then they can always fall back on some sort of "discrimination, civil rights, or protected class of people" claim. It's gotten to the point where these types of filings are a form of legal extortion or black mail of judges, where they're forced to hear the case or else risk being forced off the bench under some sort of racist or discriminatory claims against THEM. "You will hear our case of racism against CHO, or we will go to the media and say you are racist for not hearing our case!" Extortion, IMO.

Dolan himself said recently (paraphrasing) that this case is the most interesting and difficult of his career. He's not ready to stop the legal process yet, either, IMO.

He's such a character. This case is only difficult and interesting in his career because they've made it so. They've set aside logic and common sense in many areas, pretend to be ignorant to the legalese and medical standards required to prove their case, and issue completely unfounded accusations against numerous people and organizations, while those people and organizations are under virtual gag orders to not be able to defend themselves.

He created this mess, with the help of a mother who was willing to go in front of a camera and say just about anything she thought would help their case.

 

[TJL]

Nailah's reasons for wanting to keep Jahi on life support have evolved over the course of the last 10 months. The early arguments had nothing to do with religious beliefs. Early arguments had everything to do with Nailah and what she believed or perceived.
This December 20, 2013 video was made when Nailah was truly grieving and speaking from her heart about Jahi and even though her reasons show cringeworthy ignorance, they are her reasons before the manipulation of the public started.

http://abc7news.com/archive/9368414/

It is terribly cringeworthy.
And when asked how she feels about the doctors telling her Jahi is deceased, she responds as though they're personally attacking her or offending her in some way. She's not at all taking it as them merely informing her of Jahi's status.

We've all had someone very close to us die, whom we love very much. Doctors (and other professionals) who have the very unfortunate job of having to give notice to family members of a death, do so with sympathy and empathy. They aren't secretly joking about it or "thanking" someone that it happened. They have a job to do, and sometimes it includes having to notify family of a death. (Edit: I won't deny that it's possible at some point she got so belligerent and accusatory towards an administrator at the hospital, that the administrator did snap back at her with, "Your daughter is dead, dead, dead. Why don't you understand that?" I think this was just someone who was extremely frustrated and fed up with her abusive behavior, that it took a toll on them, too, and they responded in kind.)

P.S. thanks for that link, hadn't watched it for quite some time. She spoke for nearly the full 6-7 minutes just talking about Jahi, not believing she's dead, memories of life, etc. And never once mentioned religion or hinted at any sort of faith helping them along. Not one single word about it.

 

[Lippy]

It is terribly cringeworthy.
And when asked how she feels about the doctors telling her Jahi is deceased, she responds as though they're personally attacking her or offending her in some way. She's not at all taking it as them merely informing her of Jahi's status

We've all had someone very close to us die, whom we love very much. Doctors (and other professionals) who have the very unfortunate job of having to give notice to family members of a death, do so with sympathy and empathy. They aren't secretly joking about it or "thanking" someone that it happened. They have a job to do, and sometimes it includes having to notify family of a death.

P.S. thanks for that link, hadn't watched it for quite some time. She spoke for nearly the full 6-7 minutes just talking about Jahi, not believing she's dead, memories of life, etc. And never once mentioned religion or hinted at any sort of faith helping them along. Not one single word about it.

Her reasons:
Jahi is not dead
She moves
She is warm
She is pretty
She smells good
Her hair is still done
Other brain dead people have woken up
She has a heartbeat and a pulse and the machine is not doing that.
She wants her to wake up
She believes she will wake up.

 

[Lippy]

Why can Nailah not go back to California? She says that if Jahi gets sick and has to go to the hospital they will kill her in Ca.
But who would take her in New Jersey?
I thought that St. Peter's was their very last hope as far as hospitals that would accept Jahi. I guess we don't know for certain that Nailah has worn out her welcome there but it certainly appears that way. St.Peter's did refuse to do the testing on Jahi, no one from St. Peter's was asked to testify or speak on Jahi's behalf and Nailah has not muttered a word of thanks for the kindness of that hospital when she is expressing gratitude to God and her "supporters". It looks like they parted on unpleasant terms. So what hospital in New Jersey is going to take her now if she "gets sick" ? No one is obligated to admit a dead body.

 

[TJL]

Her reasons:
Jahi is not dead
She moves
She is warm
She is pretty
She smells good
Her hair is still done
Other brain damaged people have woken up
She has a heartbeat and a pulse and the machine is not doing that.
She wants her to wake up
She believes she will wake up.

Fixed one for you I took a mental note of that while watching it...and couldn't believe that she was comparing a brain damaged person to her brain dead child. While brain death is obviously severe brain damage to the point of death, it's just not the same thing. Like you said, cringeworthy ignorance!

 

[joypath]

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_24861233/how-brain-death-is-affecting-jahi-mcmaths-body

This article was in the new news section of a google search but it's an old article, just updated two days ago for some reason.

Anyway, we had been wondering if she was receiving hormones and there's this quote:

"To support the body that they fought so hard to save, Jahi's family has authorized some nutritional support, including potassium, minerals and hormones. She's also getting antibiotics to combat a possible infection. "

Thanks Donjeta for finding this up-date!
BBM....Yes, I accept that the terminology "the body" might/may/could be "editorial license" of the author, I find it repulsive IF those are the terms utilized by the authorizing family! You know, the same family who are "fighting" to declare "the body" as ALIVE with their court petitions and video "proof"!
BBM....So now an even stronger, more complex matrix of biological support has been instituted....this support complex seems to belie that family's interpretation that the brain has "regenerated" and is providing a "life-sustaining", growth function...again, in their opinion that the brain swelling at the time of death declaration has gradually diminished.
BBM....Um, yes I believe that the "possible" infection status is accurate, in probable point of fact, I'd remove "possible" and be watching for a septic event. The balance of "good" bacteria vs "harmful" &/or pathogenic bacteria is a delicate dance within the fully functioning, active human organism! (just for chuckles, add fungi, protozoa & viruses to that dance, too!)

 

[Nore]

Hi, I hope I can say this correctly. I think this is the part Jahis family did not grasp when this happened. When the brain is dead it is dead. With the ventilator the blood will circulate through the brain again. A dead brain can once again receive blood flow but it is still dead. It will not come alive again. My sons stroke hit the brain stem. He was capable of understanding, thinking, oh so many things but he could not move. The infarction did not hit the entire brainstem. Jahis entire brain was deprived of blood. She had a massive heart attack from blood loss, they brought her heart back yes, but her brain remains dead..So sad yes but they should try to understand.

God Gave Us A Gift
Our SON.
Beautiful blue eyes,
A loving smile,
I'd give the World to see,
The boy, the man,
Who was ours for awhile.
Love, Mom

 

[katydid23]

Hi, I hope I can say this correctly. I think this is the part Jahis family did not grasp when this happened. When the brain is dead it is dead. With the ventilator the blood will circulate through the brain again. A dead brain can once again receive blood flow but it is still dead. It will not come alive again. My sons stroke hit the brain stem. He was capable of understanding, thinking, oh so many things but he could not move. The infarction did not hit the entire brainstem. Jahis entire brain was deprived of blood. She had a massive heart attack from blood loss, they brought her heart back yes, but her brain remains dead..So sad yes but they should try to understand.

God Gave Us A Gift
Our SON.
Beautiful blue eyes,
A loving smile,
I'd give the World to see,
The boy, the man,
Who was ours for awhile.
Love, Mom

:grouphug: :grouphug: :rose: :grouphug: :star: :grouphug: :rose: :grouphug: :star: :grouphug: :rose: :grouphug:

 

[forthelost]

She didn't have a heart attack, where the muscle of the heart dies, she suffered a cardiac arrest, where the heart stops beating. That led to deprivation of oxygen which lead to death.

 

[SwampMama]

Why can Nailah not go back to California? She says that if Jahi gets sick and has to go to the hospital they will kill her in Ca.
But who would take her in New Jersey?
I thought that St. Peter's was their very last hope as far as hospitals that would accept Jahi. I guess we don't know for certain that Nailah has worn out her welcome there but it certainly appears that way. St.Peter's did refuse to do the testing on Jahi, no one from St. Peter's was asked to testify or speak on Jahi's behalf and Nailah has not muttered a word of thanks for the kindness of that hospital when she is expressing gratitude to God and her "supporters". It looks like they parted on unpleasant terms. So what hospital in New Jersey is going to take her now if she "gets sick" ? No one is obligated to admit a dead body.

All of the above is sooo true. It is incredible that this has all gone on so long. I am very curious why there was a parting of ways with the hospital in Nj. Now Jahi is home and I imagine it puts a cramp in the family's way of life. They likely don't have the money to spend on the kind of nursing care that Jahi was receiving in the hospital. There is no longer an unlimited wealth of medical professionals who are caring for Jahi's every need while NW breezes in and tells them what to do while she give Jahi a manicure.

Now Jahi is home and NW very likely is having to do a lot of the hands on care such as changing diapers, washing her, doing her laundry and such. NW has other young needy children as well to care for and an older daughter who is about to give birth. For them, life has gone on, they are not stuck in the past and a world of denial. They are likely horrified by their sisters disturbing condition.

Any talk about Jahi getting sick and being admitted to the hospital is just "out there". There is no hospital that will admit a patient who is dead. The things NW says always betray details that she did not mean to reveal while the things she does not say tell us even more. Very interesting that there is no mention of the NJ hospital or any support from them in any of this.

 

[K_Z]

Why can Nailah not go back to California? She says that if Jahi gets sick and has to go to the hospital they will kill her in Ca.
But who would take her in New Jersey?
I thought that St. Peter's was their very last hope as far as hospitals that would accept Jahi. I guess we don't know for certain that Nailah has worn out her welcome there but it certainly appears that way. St.Peter's did refuse to do the testing on Jahi, no one from St. Peter's was asked to testify or speak on Jahi's behalf and Nailah has not muttered a word of thanks for the kindness of that hospital when she is expressing gratitude to God and her "supporters". It looks like they parted on unpleasant terms. So what hospital in New Jersey is going to take her now if she "gets sick" ? No one is obligated to admit a dead body.

BBM. Exactly. California is not their problem, at present.

Apparently, Jahi's body is at a private home/ apartment at present. If the heart stops, or there is a problem with the ventilator that no one available can fix, there is a limited amount of time someone can "squeeze the bag", or do CPR, to keep the body alive. Even if a nasty pneumonia develops, with high airway pressures, and lots of pulmonary secretions, airway collapse, and other issues, what next?

What will happen if paramedics are called?

What will happen if Jahi's body is transported, and arrives at an emergency department?

I wonder if NW has thought thru everything that can happen in NJ, and what her primary and secondary back up plans are?

Getting Jahi's body BACK to California is the least of their problems, at present, IMO.