Jahi McMath is Taken off Life Support Discussion

[jjenny]

Brain dead persons don't have a naturally beating heart. The heart is beating because they are on a ventilator. If you turn of a ventilator, the heart will stop beating.
Surely you don't argue that is natural?

 

[jjenny]

Mother of girl declared dead twice slams doctors at... | Daily Mail Online

The mother of Jahi McMath, the teenage girl who was declared brain dead twice after a routine tonsil surgery, has slammed doctors who tried to turn off her life support as she was finally laid to rest nearly five years on from her tragic diagnosis.

Nailah Winkfield was given a standing ovation on Friday by the packed congregation of a church in Oakland, California, for waging the long-running legal battle over her daughter's future.

She seems to want other brain dead persons, not just her daughter, to be kept on life support. For what purpose? He daughter was laying attached to ventilator for years, and at most should could do (that is if one believes what relatives claim) is to move a finger or a toe. Meanwhile taxpayers (in form of medicaid) are paying for care for someone who isn't going to have any meaningful recovery.

 

[MyBelle]

Brain dead persons don't have a naturally beating heart. The heart is beating because they are on a ventilator. If you turn of a ventilator, the heart will stop beating.
Surely you don't argue that is natural?

BBM. A legally brain-dead person has no brain function whatsoever. However, a ventilator can not keep a heart beating indefinitely which is why the window for organ transplantation is so narrow. Heart beats and blood pressure are controlled by the brain, not a ventilator.

Jahi's heart remained beating for nearly five years along with menstrual cycles, body temperature, heart rate reactions to sound, etc. All indications Jahi had some brain function remaining. JMO.

 

[MyBelle]

She seems to want other brain dead persons, not just her daughter, to be kept on life support. For what purpose? He daughter was laying attached to ventilator for years, and at most should could do (that is if one believes what relatives claim) is to move a finger or a toe. Meanwhile taxpayers (in form of medicaid) are paying for care for someone who isn't going to have any meaningful recovery.

I have known families who chose to bring a baby into the world knowing full well the incredible medical challenges that child would face and they faced them together. I don't believe one of those mothers ever regretted their decision.

 

[jjenny]

BBM. A legally brain-dead person has no brain function whatsoever. However, a ventilator can not keep a heart beating indefinitely which is why the window for organ transplantation is so narrow. Heart beats and blood pressure are controlled by the brain, not a ventilator.

Jahi's heart remained beating for nearly five years along with menstrual cycles, body temperature, heart rate reactions to sound, etc. All indications Jahi had some brain function remaining. JMO.

Again, remaining for years on life support doesn't mean the person is not brain dead. I posted a link to a case where brain dead boy remained 20 years on life support.
He was still brain dead all that time.

 

[nrdsb4]

Since when are those not nurses? Did you mean to say she's not an RN instead?

No, Jahi's MOTHER is not a nurse. Her GRANDMOTHER is a nurse.

Additionally, the grandmother LIED and said she was an RN, an assertion easily checked and debunked. She is an LPN.

 

[MyBelle]

Again, remaining for years on life support doesn't mean the person is not brain dead. I posted a link to a case where brain dead boy remained 20 years on life support.
He was still brain dead all that time.

The point of the article was that brain death does not equate with biological death of the body and that external carotid artery flow did allow pathological changes to take place in the boy's brain which was initially destroyed by disease. It specifically points out the findings of Dr. Shewmon, the same Dr. who has said Jahi no longer met the legal definition of brain death.

 

[nrdsb4]

BBM. A legally brain-dead person has no brain function whatsoever. However, a ventilator can not keep a heart beating indefinitely which is why the window for organ transplantation is so narrow. Heart beats and blood pressure are controlled by the brain, not a ventilator.

Jahi's heart remained beating for nearly five years along with menstrual cycles, body temperature, heart rate reactions to sound, etc. All indications Jahi had some brain function remaining. JMO.

You are wrong. The human heart does not require the brain to function in order to remain beating. It only requires oxygenated blood supply.

The stimulus which triggers the initiation of each heartbeat is an automatic, ad infinitum, process. It is generated within specialized cells located inside the heart. They are called pacemaker cells, and in normal conditions they are located in the Sinus Node, in the right atrium, near the connection with the Superior Vena Cava.

This means that if there is an adequate blood flow in the coronary arteries (the arteries that provide blood to the heart), an undamaged heart will keep beating on its own.

So a person with a completely dead brain can continue to have normal heart function as long as it receives oxygenated blood. That is what mechanical ventilation provides.

Brain function can influence heart activity, but brain activity is not REQUIRED for the heart to function.

There was a brain dead child who was maintained on mechanical ventilation for almost 20 years. His autopsy revealed that his brain was nothing more than a dried up, shriveled up ball of calcified matter. Yet his heart had continued to beat all those years.

 

[MyBelle]

No, Jahi's MOTHER is not a nurse. Her GRANDMOTHER is a nurse.

Additionally, the grandmother LIED and said she was an RN, an assertion easily checked and debunked. She is an LPN.

Why does it matter? Wasn't Jahi's care the responsibility of the hospital and its staff?

 

[nrdsb4]

It only matters in that I responding to a post which said that Jahi's mother was a nurse. That's not true, so I corrected that misinformation. Which I'm allowed to do. Thanks.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

The point of the article was that brain death does not equate with biological death of the body and that external carotid artery flow did allow pathological changes to take place in the boy's brain which was initially destroyed by disease. It specifically points out the findings of Dr. Shewmon, the same Dr. who has said Jahi no longer met the legal definition of brain death.

Dr. Shewmon rejects the entire concept of brain death. He has an agenda. He never actually examined Jahi in person, only looked at the info provided by her family.

How can he ethically opine on her status without actually examining her?

Jeez, doctors on anonymous internet health sites won't give an opinion without a disclaimer that a diagnosis can't be made without a medical examination.

 

[bluesneakers]

She seems to want other brain dead persons, not just her daughter, to be kept on life support. For what purpose? He daughter was laying attached to ventilator for years, and at most should could do (that is if one believes what relatives claim) is to move a finger or a toe. Meanwhile taxpayers (in form of medicaid) are paying for care for someone who isn't going to have any meaningful recovery.

The only purpose I can think of is organ donation, though that is based only on what I've seen on TV and how there's always the rush to get an organ to another hospital before it's too late. Otherwise I see no advantage. Maybe to let the person's loved ones who live far away a chance to say goodbye? I believe there's a correlation between seeing a person's body and grief recovery.

 

[bluesneakers]

Again, remaining for years on life support doesn't mean the person is not brain dead. I posted a link to a case where brain dead boy remained 20 years on life support.
He was still brain dead all that time.

If "brain dead" wasn't the phrased used in cases like this I wonder if people would more easily accept the person is dead dead.

From NIH:
A patient determined to be brain dead is legally and clinically dead.

 

[Wyle_E_Coyote]

Why does it matter? Wasn't Jahi's care the responsibility of the hospital and its staff?

Of course, and it was also the responsibility of the family at her side to follow the medical directions they were given. We all know the allegations about the family's actions that evening. The hospital cannot legally release any of the documentation of the events leading to her death. We have heard one side, the family's, and a number of their statements were contradictory and disturbing. I am not willing to accuse the doctor and nurses that attended her of malpractice without seeing the hospital's documentation.

Too bad the family won't allow everything to be made public .

 

[MyBelle]

You are wrong. The human heart does not require the brain to function in order to remain beating. It only requires oxygenated blood supply.

The stimulus which triggers the initiation of each heartbeat is an automatic, ad infinitum, process. It is generated within specialized cells located inside the heart. They are called pacemaker cells, and in normal conditions they are located in the Sinus Node, in the right atrium, near the connection with the Superior Vena Cava.

This means that if there is an adequate blood flow in the coronary arteries (the arteries that provide blood to the heart), an undamaged heart will keep beating on its own.

So a person with a completely dead brain can continue to have normal heart function as long as it receives oxygenated blood. That is what mechanical ventilation provides.

Brain function can influence heart activity, but brain activity is not REQUIRED for the heart to function.

There was a brain dead child who was maintained on mechanical ventilation for almost 20 years. His autopsy revealed that his brain was nothing more than a dried up, shriveled up ball of calcified matter. Yet his heart had continued to beat all those years.

The boy's heart continued to beat all those years because his body remained very much alive. A ventilator only works if the heart remains beating. A ventilator does NOT control the heartbeat. My dad was on a ventilator for four months. He died because his heart stopped beating while on the ventilator.

The link provided detail as to what the autopsy of the boy revealed: Although, by definition, brain death entails no internal carotid or vertebrobasilar artery blood flow, external carotid artery flow continued.

Some brain function absolutely is required for heart function.

Brain stem
The brain stem is the stem-like part of the base of the brain that is connected to the spinal cord.

The brain stem controls the flow of messages between the brain and the rest of the body, and it also controls basic body functions such as breathing, swallowing, heart rate, blood pressure, consciousness, and whether one is awake or sleepy.

The Brainstem

 

[nrdsb4]

The boy's heart continued to beat all those years because his body remained very much alive. A ventilator only works if the heart remains beating. A ventilator does NOT control the heartbeat. My dad was on a ventilator for four months. He died because his heart stopped beating while on the ventilator.

The link provided detail as to what the autopsy of the boy revealed: Although, by definition, brain death entails no internal carotid or vertebrobasilar artery blood flow, external carotid artery flow continued.

Some brain function absolutely is required for heart function.

Brain stem
The brain stem is the stem-like part of the base of the brain that is connected to the spinal cord.

The brain stem controls the flow of messages between the brain and the rest of the body, and it also controls basic body functions such as breathing, swallowing, heart rate, blood pressure, consciousness, and whether one is awake or sleepy.

The Brainstem

Are you a medical professional? Because you are sure not writing like one. Get this: a heart can continue to beat with NO INPUT from the brain as long as it has blood supply from a ventilator. That is NOT THE SAME THING as saying that a heart cannot stop if it's on a ventilator.

Again, a functioning brain certainly can influence the heart. But a functioning brain is not REQUIRED in order for the heart to continue beating. This is medical fact and is not in dispute even among people who disagree about whether or not brain death should require the withdrawal of mechanical support.

 

[MyBelle]

If "brain dead" wasn't the phrased used in cases like this I wonder if people would more easily accept the person is dead dead.

From NIH:
A patient determined to be brain dead is legally and clinically dead.

BBM. I think the determination criteria have created the moral dilemma. True brain death is irreversible yet there have been cases where a child diagnosed as brain-dead has come 'back to life.'

 

[nrdsb4]

The link provided detail as to what the autopsy of the boy revealed: Although, by definition, brain death entails no internal carotid or vertebrobasilar artery blood flow, external carotid artery flow continued.

The external carotid supplies blood to the face, scalp, and neck area.

I've got to go to the movies, so will have to revisit this later.

 

[MyBelle]

Of course, and it was also the responsibility of the family at her side to follow the medical directions they were given. We all know the allegations about the family's actions that evening. The hospital cannot legally release any of the documentation of the events leading to her death. We have heard one side, the family's, and a number of their statements were contradictory and disturbing. I am not willing to accuse the doctor and nurses that attended her of malpractice without seeing the hospital's documentation.

Too bad the family won't allow everything to be made public .

It will all come to light during court proceedings although I don't know what medical directions an ICU would give family members.

 

[MyBelle]

Are you a medical professional? Because you are sure not writing like one. Get this: a heart can continue to beat with NO INPUT from the brain as long as it has blood supply from a ventilator. That is NOT THE SAME THING as saying that a heart cannot stop if it's on a ventilator.

Again, a functioning brain certainly can influence the heart. But a functioning brain is not REQUIRED in order for the heart to continue beating. This is medical fact and is not in dispute even among people who disagree about whether or not brain death should require the withdrawal of mechanical support.

Why the need to be so rude? I've not claimed to be a medical professional. I provided a link to the role the brain stem plays in maintaining blood pressure and heart rate and I managed to do it without yelling.