JBR Head Injury

[Maikai]

Why do you believe he was wrong about JR being the perp? I believe JR was the most likely perp!

Cops are taught if a child is found dead in a home, to look at people inside the home first....in the case of the BPD, they never got past that. With JR, there is no history...no socioeconomic or other factors that usually are present in perps that kill children. (ie: lowlife boyfriend with drinking or drug problem, prone to violence). Children from his previous marriage cannot believe anyone could even accuse their father of sexually abusing JBR. No history there. I believe past actions predict future behavior.

Whoever did this is not a stranger to violence, and they had a criminal mind, and knew about things like stun guns, breaking and entering, and how to make a garrotte, and viewed extortion-type movies.

 

[Maikai]

But, there were those loose loops around the hands that weren't even pulled tightly and there was no evidence of a gag in the mouth to prevent screaming, and the legs weren't bound. I mean, the duct tape on the mouth was placed after death so why wouldn't a perp have just bound her tightly with the tape that he had? I don't see why a kidnapper wouldn't take the time to do these things and be prepared for a struggle. Also, if those marks really were stun gun marks, Jon Benet would surely have been unable to struggle very much.

JR undid one of the loops, and he said it was on tight....why the cord was used on the wrists in that way, I don't know.

Lou Smit theorized that her ankles may have been tied, but perp then used the cord as a garrotte. I don't know if it's been established when the duct tape was placed on her mouth. One thing I find strange, is she wasn't blindfolded--indicating to me, the perp wasn't concerned about being recognized, because JBR didn't know him...OR like some think, the intent was to murder her all along.

As far as the effect of the stun gun--I don't know how long it would permanently immobilize JBR--there's never been studies of the effect on children. (for obvious reasons!) In adults, it's been shown that it can temporarily discomboggle an adult man.

 

[Jayelles]

Cops are taught if a child is found dead in a home, to look at people inside the home first....in the case of the BPD, they never got past that. With JR, there is no history...no socioeconomic or other factors that usually are present in perps that kill children. (ie: lowlife boyfriend with drinking or drug problem, prone to violence). Children from his previous marriage cannot believe anyone could even accuse their father of sexually abusing JBR. No history there. I believe past actions predict future behavior.

Whoever did this is not a stranger to violence, and they had a criminal mind, and knew about things like stun guns, breaking and entering, and how to make a garrotte, and viewed extortion-type movies.

They never got "past" it because they never got through it due to the masssive stonewall which was erected. The Ramseys wanted the BPD to give them an automatic pass based on the "kind of people we are". The British upper classes are notorious for this. They think that they are above the law and that their connections will get them off the hook. We have Madonna parking her car ever week on a double yellow line outside her health club. Every week she gets a ticket. The fact is, double yellow lines are there for a purpose. They are there to keep certain road areas free from congestion. Madonna doesn't care - she sees only the financial implications - which she can easily afford. No consideration is given to the rest of us who are inconvenienced by her parked car. Some people think that laws are for other people to adhere to - that it's one law for them and another for everyone else.

The Ramseys brought about the public criticism. Their behaviour is the reason why so many people think they have something to hide. Since then, they have done absolutely nothing to reverse public opinion about them.

 

[Maikai]

I don't see why a kidnapper wouldn't take the time to do these things and be prepared for a struggle.

I think the perp got her out of the bedroom while she was still sound asleep, and down the stairs, with no problem. He would have wanted to get her as far away from the rest of the people in the house as possible. In the basement is where I think she woke up, and the perp (being an amateur in kidnapping) understimated how difficult it can be to subdue a small 6-year old, and that he wouldn't be able to reason with her. The crime scene in the basement indicates to me an impulsive act--possibly stun gunning first..quickly making a garrotte (for control so she wouldn't run away)...and then some kind of rage--something set him off. I don't believe this perp was cool, calm, and collected---but on an adenaline high, and under the influence of a drug or alcohol or both.

 

[Maikai]

They never got "past" it because they never got through it due to the masssive stonewall which was erected. The Ramseys wanted the BPD to give them an automatic pass based on the "kind of people we are". The British upper classes are notorious for this. They think that they are above the law and that their connections will get them off the hook. We have Madonna parking her car ever week on a double yellow line outside her health club. Every week she gets a ticket. The fact is, double yellow lines are there for a purpose. They are there to keep certain road areas free from congestion. Madonna doesn't care - she sees only the financial implications - which she can easily afford. No consideration is given to the rest of us who are inconvenienced by her parked car. Some people think that laws are for other people to adhere to - that it's one law for them and another for everyone else.

The Ramseys brought about the public criticism. Their behaviour is the reason why so many people think they have something to hide. Since then, they have done absolutely nothing to reverse public opinion about them.

to a point. Lawyering up tends to pit one side against another, and the lawyers tell their clients to "shut up" and let them handle it. On top of that, the BPD was embarrassed early on in the media---it was only a matter of days before fingers were being pointed at them for screwing up the crime scene that first day. There may have even been some legal concerns that the City would be sued. On top of that, the Ramseys not cozying up to Ellers may have been a real slap in the face, and they hired a powerful lawfirm. SO....IMO, hiding behind lawyers isn't always the answer. On the other hand, the BPD could have worked with the Ramseys attorneys, and compromised on the interviews and investigation, but both sides dug in fairly early, and the more they dug in, the greater jeopardy the Ramseys were in of being arrested..of losing Burke (visions of the Dowalibys)...of the City going after their assets if convicted--early on one of the DA's mentioned that if the suspect had money, they could go after it to pay for the investigation and trial.

And Madonna? Well, if I were her, I'd park anywhere I d#mn well pleased, too. Sounds like the ticket is less than putting up with a hassle of finding a parking place.

 

[Nuisanceposter]

I just have such a hard time believing someone would break into their house on Christmas Day and sit around waiting for the Ramseys to return. I have a hard time believing he spent time there alone writing a note and familiarizing himself with the layout of the house. That's just way too risky. That's not how kidnappers or murderers operate. This perp did not know what they were doing.

Then when I look at the bizarre ransom note that appears consistent with Patsy's style of speaking and handwriting, plus all of the references that a stranger wouldn't have known about coupled with the way the Rams have all but refused to cooperate and acted completely opposite of how the note instructed them to (even sent Burke out when there was supposed to be someone watching the house, not to mention calling police and everyone else they could) as if they knew there was no danger from anyone watching their house, and I think there's no way that crime was pulled off by any intruder.

 

[Maikai]

I just have such a hard time believing someone would break into their house on Christmas Day and sit around waiting for the Ramseys to return. I have a hard time believing he spent time there alone writing a note and familiarizing himself with the layout of the house. That's just way too risky. That's not how kidnappers or murderers operate. This perp did not know what they were doing.

Then when I look at the bizarre ransom note that appears consistent with Patsy's style of speaking and handwriting, plus all of the references that a stranger wouldn't have known about coupled with the way the Rams have all but refused to cooperate and acted completely opposite of how the note instructed them to (even sent Burke out when there was supposed to be someone watching the house, not to mention calling police and everyone else they could) as if they knew there was no danger from anyone watching their house, and I think there's no way that crime was pulled off by any intruder.

that two parents who doted on their child were involved in garrotting her and watching while she tried to scratch the cord off her neck? That they stun gunned her...bashed her in the head.....and then sexually assaulted her with the end of a paintbrush? Two parents with no history whatsoever of violence...mistreating their children...criminal backgrounds--in fact the opposite is true.

Patsy did not watch extortion films--nor express any interest in these types of films. If there had been anything in that area, Steve Thomas would have had it on his fantasy circumstantial evidence list. There's others whose handwriting matched much more closely. The screenwriters are a closer match to the style of speaking in the note.

There was no personal information in the note. John's name was in it and a reference to southern roots, and JR was not even from the south--he was born in Michigan.

Crimes at Christmas are nothing unusual--particularly burglaries. There's a slew of mystery books about murder at Christmas.....the Rue Morgue Mystery book shop (name has since changed) on Pearl Street--kitty corner from Pasta Jay's, might have even had a special display of mystery books with a Christmas theme.

The fact that the Ramseys didn't pay attention to the threats in the ransom note, indicate that it was scary enough to convince some people that it may have been real, and the intent of the writer might have been to write a scary note so they wouldn't call the police.

The house was not all that complicated. The Ramseys bedroom took up the entire 3rd floor. Bedrooms on the second....living room, kitchen, etc. on the first. The basement itself was only under the original part of the house--not a large space. If the perp had previously been in the house, he would have been familiar with it.

The article on the 2lst highlighting the "billionaire" John Ramsey could have been the trigger for a warped mind, and had his name in it, and reference to a Dixieland Jazz band. Boulder has always been a mecca for all kinds of people..and had a huge transient population...and had a rising crime rate due to the drug subculture. Some loser with a history of crime and drug use makes more sense to me.

 

[trixie]

All of that could make sense. But there's something left out. A BIG something.

PINEAPPLE.

 

[Zman]

All of that could make sense. But there's something left out. A BIG something.

PINEAPPLE.

Yes pineapple is tough to explain. But it's tough no matter what side your on. It makes no sense for a stranger or her parents to give her pineapple for any reason. However we don't even know if it was pineapple in that bowl. We only know LE said there was. And they have said many things that seem to be only an attempt to get the R's to slip or admit guilt under pressure.

 

[LinasK]

The bruising on the termporal lobes is one possible injury. The crack in the skull and displaced bone, another injury, and most likely the last brutal act against JBR, which is why no lump, and little blood inside the skull--she was dead or close to dying at that point. The displaced bone area, would indicate the shape of the object that was used to strike her.

Thank-you for your explanation MaiKai, we are in agreement on this point...

 

[LinasK]

Cops are taught if a child is found dead in a home, to look at people inside the home first....in the case of the BPD, they never got past that. With JR, there is no history...no socioeconomic or other factors that usually are present in perps that kill children. (ie: lowlife boyfriend with drinking or drug problem, prone to violence). Children from his previous marriage cannot believe anyone could even accuse their father of sexually abusing JBR. No history there. I believe past actions predict future behavior.

Whoever did this is not a stranger to violence, and they had a criminal mind, and knew about things like stun guns, breaking and entering, and how to make a garrotte, and viewed extortion-type movies.

It doesn't have to be a known history, could have been his first kill, also sexual violence may not have been known by others in the family. My family was completely unaware that my uncle molested me. He didn't pick on my older sister, only me. I believe her death was accidental in the commission of John sexually abusing JB and went too far, so instead of seeking help, it was less damaging to the Ramsey's reputation to finish her off and blame it on someone else.

 

[LinasK]

that two parents who doted on their child were involved in garrotting her and watching while she tried to scratch the cord off her neck? That they stun gunned her...bashed her in the head.....and then sexually assaulted her with the end of a paintbrush? Two parents with no history whatsoever of violence...mistreating their children...criminal backgrounds--in fact the opposite is true.

Patsy did not watch extortion films--nor express any interest in these types of films.

Crimes at Christmas are nothing unusual--particularly burglaries. There's a slew of mystery books about murder at Christmas.....the Rue Morgue Mystery book shop (name has since changed) on Pearl Street--kitty corner from Pasta Jay's, might have even had a special display of mystery books with a Christmas theme.

A few points here...First I don't believe their behavior towards JB was "doting" on her- it was treating her as a trophy child, bleaching her hair blonde, putting on bright red lipstick, and parading her around as a minature grown woman in provocative costumes in beauty pageants is not my concept of doting on a child.
Second, I believe the order of the assault by John was sexual first including stun gun and garrote/paintbrush, then finishing her off by bashing her in the head when he realized his game had gone too far. He didn't set out to kill her, it was an accidental byproduct of his sick sexual game with her.
Third, they found books of the mystery/extortion type in John and Patsy's reading collection, which is where I believe Patsy came up with the phrase "foreign faction", from one of these novels.
If this was a drug-induced rage killing as you think, I believe there would have been far more violence and blood. Just look at Pamela Vitale's murder for example- I do believe that kid was on Meth when he killed her.

 

[Eagle1]

".... The screenwriters are a closer match to the style of speaking in the note......The article on the 2lst highlighting the "billionaire" John Ramsey could have been the trigger for a warped mind, and had his name in it, and reference to a Dixieland Jazz band. ....... Some loser with a history of crime and drug use makes more sense to me."

1. The screenwriters? I've been here all these years but don't recall ever hearing that. Care to elaborate just a bit, in case someone else missed it too? Thanks in advance.

2. Dixieland jazz band? You mean transient street musicians at the Mall?
JR never played in one himself?

Several things we keep forgetting I think point to someone else having done this, probably more than one, such as the young guy walking toward the house seen by neighbor Barnhill, the crime scene staging point to the R's, which they just would not do.

Involvement, maybe, depending on how many extras were actually there, whether it was all their "friends" with the matching scarves, and just maybe all of them, not just Patsy, had been up all night, reason they could get there so fast and early that morning.

LE probably didn't think to check if they were ALL wearing the previous night's clothing.

I think Burke was right that JonBenet was awake when they came home from the FW's, to walk up the stairs, and that she hadn't eaten her plate of cracked crab and stuff that Priscilla gave her, so they let her have a snack before she walked upstairs. Lou Smit I believe said there was a bowl on her bureau that had had pineapple in it, so if he's right, they may have given her some out of the bowl that was left out in the kitchen, and a smaller spoon. The large spoon was probably to dish her pineapple into a smaller bowl with.

 

[Zman]

1. The screenwriters? I've been here all these years but don't recall ever hearing that. Care to elaborate just a bit, in case someone else missed it too? Thanks in advance.

2. Dixieland jazz band? You mean transient street musicians at the Mall?
JR never played in one himself?

Several things we keep forgetting I think point to someone else having done this, probably more than one, such as the young guy walking toward the house seen by neighbor Barnhill, the crime scene staging point to the R's, which they just would not do.

Involvement, maybe, depending on how many extras were actually there, whether it was all their "friends" with the matching scarves, and just maybe all of them, not just Patsy, had been up all night, reason they could get there so fast and early that morning.

LE probably didn't think to check if they were ALL wearing the previous night's clothing.

I think Burke was right that JonBenet was awake when they came home from the FW's, to walk up the stairs, and that she hadn't eaten her plate of cracked crab and stuff that Priscilla gave her, so they let her have a snack before she walked upstairs. Lou Smit I believe said there was a bowl on her bureau that had had pineapple in it, so if he's right, they may have given her some out of the bowl that was left out in the kitchen, and a smaller spoon. The large spoon was probably to dish her pineapple into a smaller bowl with.

Once agian it just doesn't seem to matter.
Why would JR and PR lie about JBR being awake or asleep when they got home? If your going to lie then you must consider that lie to be very important to your case.

What major advantage is there in saying JBR was asleep as opposed to awake and then along with Burke put to bed within an hour or so?

And even if the your pineapple story above is true it doesn't convict them or even implicate them in the murder of their daughter.

Why wouldn't they just say we gave her some pineapple and put her to bed?

Again where is the advantage to the lie?

 

[Maikai]

1. The screenwriters? I've been here all these years but don't recall ever hearing that. Care to elaborate just a bit, in case someone else missed it too? Thanks in advance.

2. Dixieland jazz band? You mean transient street musicians at the Mall?
JR never played in one himself?

http://www.jonbenetindexguide.com/08051998-jbramerica-pic3.htm

Click on or paste link above....and then click on Photo album 3. There's pictures of the Dixieland Jazz band...also a photo of the newspaper article of the billion dollar success that was on page l of the Business section. JR said once that his intuition told him the article might not be a good idea and he wishes he would have listened to his instincts about publicizing the success. The band weren't transients. They were specifically hired for the Access celebration. They played at the Access offices....then went out and played while walking to the Boulderado.

As far as screenwriters---the note contains numerous references to extortion movies--not the exact quote, but similar. The writer of the ransom note copied lines and themes and incorporated them into the note.

 

[Maikai]

A few points here...First I don't believe their behavior towards JB was "doting" on her- it was treating her as a trophy child, bleaching her hair blonde, putting on bright red lipstick, and parading her around as a minature grown woman in provocative costumes in beauty pageants is not my concept of doting on a child.
Second, I believe the order of the assault by John was sexual first including stun gun and garrote/paintbrush, then finishing her off by bashing her in the head when he realized his game had gone too far. He didn't set out to kill her, it was an accidental byproduct of his sick sexual game with her.
Third, they found books of the mystery/extortion type in John and Patsy's reading collection, which is where I believe Patsy came up with the phrase "foreign faction", from one of these novels.
If this was a drug-induced rage killing as you think, I believe there would have been far more violence and blood. Just look at Pamela Vitale's murder for example- I do believe that kid was on Meth when he killed her.

JBR could be considered a trophy child---another reason parents like the Ramseys wouldn't brutally murder her. The beauty pageants weren't nearly as sexual as some indicate. There were different categories at different events---the show girl was a little over the top---we all know that. It's one of the main reasons some have crucified Patsy. Even if some think she was not involved at all, they condemn her for the beauty pageant participation--it very likely could have led a sick pedophile to do the crime. I think it's what may have made her a kidnapping victim--rich daddy, and trophy child. We don't know what may have been seen in the house while the perp stalked around---pictures? Crowns? Trophies?

The books are an urban legend. They didn't find extortion books or movies. And don't forget--they took the computers, and found NO traces of visits to kiddie sites, or other evidence JR had a sexual interest in little girls.

I don't know what a mind on drugs is capable of. I do know the Ramseys were right in the middle of an area that had increasing drug use.....crimes such as burglaries on an increase due to drug use...and plenty of transients--some of which were violent. I can see someone writing the note while high--and coming up with an idiotic kidnapping plan which wasn't thought out. Someone that had experience in breaking and entering to support their drug habit. Fencing stolen items and credit cards doesn't bring a lot of mone in. A $118,000 windfall for what they thought was a few hours work may have been the motive. I don't think the perp planned on killing JBR, but intended on taking her out of the home. He didn't use a killing weapon he brought in---but improvised in the basement, making the garrotte, which I think was originally intended as a leash.

 

[Jayelles]

to a point. Lawyering up tends to pit one side against another, and the lawyers tell their clients to "shut up" and let them handle it. On top of that, the BPD was embarrassed early on in the media---it was only a matter of days before fingers were being pointed at them for screwing up the crime scene that first day. There may have even been some legal concerns that the City would be sued. On top of that, the Ramseys not cozying up to Ellers may have been a real slap in the face, and they hired a powerful lawfirm. SO....IMO, hiding behind lawyers isn't always the answer. On the other hand, the BPD could have worked with the Ramseys attorneys, and compromised on the interviews and investigation, but both sides dug in fairly early, and the more they dug in, the greater jeopardy the Ramseys were in of being arrested..of losing Burke (visions of the Dowalibys)...of the City going after their assets if convicted--early on one of the DA's mentioned that if the suspect had money, they could go after it to pay for the investigation and trial.

And Madonna? Well, if I were her, I'd park anywhere I d#mn well pleased, too. Sounds like the ticket is less than putting up with a hassle of finding a parking place.

And you have proved my point exactly! The rich use their money to do as they please and buy their way out of any ensuing trouble. All that they think about is the "hassle" which they might be caused to them - whether it be to have to walk an extra 100 yards or to make the trip to the police station to help police investigating their daughter's brutal murder.

No matter to Madonna that her illegally parked car causes congestion and perhaps even an unnecessary delay for an ambulance or a fire engine (although I can imagine the scene if Madonna required an ambulance and it were delayed due to someone blocking a road with an illegally parked car!).

I think it is disgusting. I'd clamp her car so that she couldn't simply drive it off when it suited her.

Police investigating the murder of a defenceless and innocent child should NOT have to negotiate with her parents for an interview.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Once agian it just doesn't seem to matter.
Why would JR and PR lie about JBR being awake or asleep when they got home? If your going to lie then you must consider that lie to be very important to your case.

What major advantage is there in saying JBR was asleep as opposed to awake and then along with Burke put to bed within an hour or so?

And even if the your pineapple story above is true it doesn't convict them or even implicate them in the murder of their daughter.

Why wouldn't they just say we gave her some pineapple and put her to bed?

Again where is the advantage to the lie?

Give 'em a break, Zman. Force-fitting the R's into the mold of a sadistic child murderer isn't easy.

 

[Maikai]

And you have proved my point exactly! The rich use their money to do as they please and buy their way out of any ensuing trouble. All that they think about is the "hassle" which they might be caused to them - whether it be to have to walk an extra 100 yards or to make the trip to the police station to help police investigating their daughter's brutal murder.

No matter to Madonna that her illegally parked car causes congestion and perhaps even an unnecessary delay for an ambulance or a fire engine (although I can imagine the scene if Madonna required an ambulance and it were delayed due to someone blocking a road with an illegally parked car!).

I think it is disgusting. I'd clamp her car so that she couldn't simply drive it off when it suited her.

Police investigating the murder of a defenceless and innocent child should NOT have to negotiate with her parents for an interview.

There was no reason that the BPD couldn't have worked with the Ramseys through their attorneys....except to put out stories in the media that they weren't cooperating. BPD blew their chance of separating and questioning them the first day. What made them think they could then go back to square one and do it the right way? Too late for that...paricularly when they blew it the first day, and then jumped on the Ramseys as suspects right away.

The rich buy yachts, and luxurious homes and cars. Why shouldn't they buy the best legal defense money can buy? It's the American way! The Ramseys hired experts to help the police--they didn't know that would be insulting to the BPD. The BPD needed all the help they could get, and they should have taken it.

If the locals aren't addressing the problems Madonna is causing, it's not her fault....perhaps they need to boot the car or raise the fines.

 

[Jayelles]

There was no reason that the BPD couldn't have worked with the Ramseys through their attorneys....except to put out stories in the media that they weren't cooperating. BPD blew their chance of separating and questioning them the first day. What made them think they could then go back to square one and do it the right way? Too late for that...paricularly when they blew it the first day, and then jumped on the Ramseys as suspects right away.

The rich buy yachts, and luxurious homes and cars. Why shouldn't they buy the best legal defense money can buy? It's the American way! The Ramseys hired experts to help the police--they didn't know that would be insulting to the BPD. The BPD needed all the help they could get, and they should have taken it.

If the locals aren't addressing the problems Madonna is causing, it's not her fault....perhaps they need to boot the car or raise the fines.

It's not her fault for persistently breaking the law? You think her illegal parking habit is the responsibility of the people who are most inconvenienced by it?

Enlightening.