JBR, PR and UMI

[WHITEFANG]

They also found that JonBenet had sustained a very powerful blow to the head, which, though it did not cause external bleeding, caused intracerebral bleeding that would quickly prove fatal.

Quickly.

When someone's head is bludgeoned, it takes zero time to begin to bleed. Was JFK dead within a split second after he was struck with the fatal shot to his head? There was blood everywhere as his skull and brain shredded. When the doctors performed cardiac massage, they inadvertently and manually pumped more blood out through his head wound. If his heart and lungs were still working, more blood would have been pumped.

There is a bleeding and swelling and bruising that occur instantly when the vessels transporting blood are ruptured. Indeed, a cracking of the skull bone does not equal blood vessel damage. We do know, however, that Joni's brain bled, swelled and bruised from the massive blow she sustained. The force was so powerful, her living brain tissue ruptured upon impact. The blow was to the top of the skull/brain. That part of her brain controlling her heart and lungs was preserved and would continue to pump blood to the brain. Given this analysis, Dr. Wecht, a pro-RDI forensic pathologist, concluded that the presence of such a small volume of blood proved she was either dead or died very quickly after this blow. Her heart and lungs had stopped or would stop very soon after impact, from some other cause. Why? She was strangled first.

His pro-RDI theory on the cause of death eliminates the endless, convoluted, criss-crossed and wildly imaginative but hardly plausible conjecture that has led nowhere after all these years.

 

[cynic]

Dr. Wecht, a pro-RDI forensic pathologist, concluded that the presence of such a small volume of blood proved she was either dead or died very quickly after this blow. Her heart and lungs had stopped or would stop very soon after impact, from some other cause. Why? She was strangled first.

His pro-RDI theory on the cause of death eliminates the endless, convoluted, criss-crossed and wildly imaginative but hardly plausible conjecture that has led nowhere after all these years.

Dr. Spitz, Tom Faure, Dr. Carey Weinheimer, Dr.Tom Henry, Dr. Kerry Brega Dr. Robert Kirschner and Dr. Ronald Wright disagree with you and Wecht.
Wecht also spoke at length about the evidence relating to prior sexual abuse of JBR, do you believe that?

 

[WHITEFANG]

Yes, I noticed, but I didn't understand the logic they applied. How do they weave together all the various facts of the injuries to explain what happened?

 

[BBB167893]

Yes! And by the same token people are more than willing to decide someone is guilty because they aren't clergy or good looking or well off. Be honest IDI's: in your minds the killer is some scruffy, scummy perv who has never contributed to society.

I'd like to hear an answer to that, too.

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'd like to hear an answer to that, too.

Perv? Amen. Oh he's scruffy and scuzzy and a slime ball puke, no doubt, too, but not necessarily in his appearance, but absolutely in his person.

BTW, didn't one of our most highly esteemed sleuths on this website contend that a certain poster was a lowlife because he used the term "fuzz" to refer to the police?

 

[WHITEFANG]

I'd like to hear an answer to that, too.

Sup, Need I remind you of the present state of the clergy? Do the names Swagger, Baker, Tilden, Oral Roberts, etc. mean anything to you?

 

[BBB167893]

Dr. Spitz, Tom Faure, Dr. Carey Weinheimer, Dr.Tom Henry, Dr. Kerry Brega Dr. Robert Kirschner and Dr. Ronald Wright disagree with you and Wecht.
Wecht also spoke at length about the evidence relating to prior sexual abuse of JBR, do you believe that?

cynic, I wish you better luck than I've had up to now!

 

[BBB167893]

Perv? Amen. Oh he's scruffy and scuzzy and a slime ball puke, no doubt, too, but not necessarily in his appearance, but absolutely in his person.

Agreed, but that was not my_tee_mouse's point. It just seems like people are more willing to vote their prejudices.

BTW, didn't one of our most highly esteemed sleuths on this website contend that a certain poster was a lowlife because he used the term "fuzz" to refer to the police?

Not in the least. Merely that the use of the terms implies contempt for law enforcement.

Sup, Need I remind you of the present state of the clergy? Do the names Swagger, Baker, Tilden, Oral Roberts, etc. mean anything to you?

Doesn't that reinforce what I've been saying?

 

[Tadpole12]

Hey WF.

Well, in the numerous group discussions of profiles and personality types, so many types have been suggested.

Appearance? I dunno, perhaps as neatly groomed as the young man mistaken by JB to be JAR. vs the physic composite of the perp?

A hybrid type has been suggested, constructed by perceived abilities the IDI must have to accomplish the multifacetted crime.

JMK, .... I could have never imagined a crossgender necrophiliac pedophile teacher stalker, so the IDI is that individual
Somewhere Out There.
JMK is not one of a kind.

 

[WHITEFANG]

cynic, I wish you better luck than I've had up to now!

Tom Faure , received a master’s degree in Public Administration, with a specialty in medical legal investigations, from Seattle University in 1978.

Dr. Carey Weinheimer is who?

Tom Henry, autopsy report consultant

Dr. Robert Kirschner, a retired deputy chief medical examiner of Cook County, Ill., and a clinical associate in the Departments of Pathology and Pediatrics at the University of Chicago, disagreed.

"You very often find head injuries with very little bleeding, even if some people just die of head injury without strangulation," Kirschner said.


Of course that happens in some cases. No one disagrees. It didn't happen in this case, however. The part of the brain that controls the heart and respiration wasn't damaged. Therefore, there should have been much more blood leakage given the damage to the brain. There wasn't; because she was dead or close to death from the strangulation.

 

[cynic]

Of course that happens in some cases. No one disagrees. It didn't happen in this case, however. The part of the brain that controls the heart and respiration wasn't damaged. Therefore, there should have been much more blood leakage given the damage to the brain. There wasn't; because she was dead or close to death from the strangulation.

It really doesn't matter if you understand it or not, and I'm not trying to be rude, but medical experts are aware of what is and is not possible.
Dr Werner Spitz was a Chief Medical Examiner
Kerry Brega was the chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center
Dr. Robert Kirschner was a deputy chief medical examiner
Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine
Seriously, WF, how many experts would it take for you to admit that it is possible that the head wound may have come first?

 

[DeeDee249]

A bullet makes a different kind of impact on a skull. JB was classified as "blunt force trauma" and a bullet is not blunt, but has a pointed end which penetrates in a different way. While the bullet that pierced JFK's skull would have caused massive damage as it broke the skull and wound a trajectory through the brain tissue, it would not cause the kind of depressed fracture shown on JB's skull. So we really can't compare the two things (bullet vs bludgeon) as far as the amount of bleeding that would result.

 

[WHITEFANG]

It really doesn't matter if you understand it or not, and I'm not trying to be rude, but medical experts are aware of what is and is not possible.
Dr Werner Spitz was a Chief Medical Examiner
Kerry Brega was the chief neurologist at Denver Health Medical Center
Dr. Robert Kirschner was a deputy chief medical examiner
Dr. Ronald Wright, director of the forensic pathology department at the University of Miami School of Medicine
Seriously, WF, how many experts would it take for you to admit that it is possible that the head wound may have come first?

fair question. i will accept wecht's opinion over theirs until i can understand their reasoning. i know a woman who felt a small lump in her breast. she went to a specialist who couldn't detect anything and sent her on her way. she went to another specialist who told her the same thing. she went to a third specialist who implied she might be a tad off her rocker. true story. she went to a fourth specialist. he believed her and thought he detected something, too. he ran tests, discovered a malignant tumor, did a radical and saved her life.

 

[WHITEFANG]

A bullet makes a different kind of impact on a skull. JB was classified as "blunt force trauma" and a bullet is not blunt, but has a pointed end which penetrates in a different way. While the bullet that pierced JFK's skull would have caused massive damage as it broke the skull and wound a trajectory through the brain tissue, it would not cause the kind of depressed fracture shown on JB's skull. So we really can't compare the two things (bullet vs bludgeon) as far as the amount of bleeding that would result.

true. a bullet does penetrate in a different way. what i think is fair to compare is the destruction of tissue. but you have a point, so let's use a sledge hammer instead. whatever impacted the skull of joni, she experienced damage to the tissues in her skull. a sledge hammer swung into a skull would do something similar. the top of the skull, that is. what wecht is saying, if i understand him, is that the damage done was so severe it should have bled considerably more than it did. He concluded it didn't because she had just died or was near death already. this makes sense to me. remember, too, wecht is pretty good at what he has been doing for 50 years, too.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

true. a bullet does penetrate in a different way. what i think is fair to compare is the destruction of tissue. but you have a point, so let's use a sledge hammer instead. whatever impacted the skull of joni, she experienced damage to the tissues in her skull. a sledge hammer swung into a skull would do something similar. the top of the skull, that is. what wecht is saying, if i understand him, is that the damage done was so severe it should have bled considerably more than it did. He concluded it didn't because she had just died or was near death already. this makes sense to me. remember, too, wecht is pretty good at what he has been doing for 50 years, too.

I agree WF. I mean, one can not move an inch in 15 years while pondering the most remote possibilities! When we consider the most likely scenario as probably correct, then JBR had already been strangled before she was struck in the head, and there was no accident.

This redundancy is common in murders, to prevent the rescue attempt.

 

[madeleine]

I am not a Wecht fan but this makes the most sense to me out of all the arguments I've heard so far re what came first.

Wecht's explanation is as follows: "If you inflict a blow like that on someone whose heart is beating," he asserts, "the heart doesn't stop, because the cardiac and respiratory centers are at the base of the brain. You're not damaging that with a blow to the top of the head. It'll become compromised as the brain swells, but initially there's no compromise. They control your heart and lungs. The heart continues to beat. The blood continues to flow. But in the Ramsey case, they got less than a teaspoon and a half of blood. If you have a beating heart and the carotid arteries are carrying blood, this person doesn't die right away. That means that blow was inflicted when she was already dead or dying."

http://jonbenetramsey.pbworks.com/Interpreting the Evidence#WhichCameFirstHeadBloworStrangulation

 

[BBB167893]

fair question.

I was about to ask it myself.

i will accept wecht's opinion over theirs until i can understand their reasoning.

Maybe I can help in that regard. From a general standpoint, they were focused on the amount of bleeding in the brain (which taken altogether was quite a lot) and the fact that the brain had swelled so much that it was pressing against the skull. More specifically, let's take it a bit at a time.

PMPT, pages 558-559, pb:

According to the specialists (Spitz, Faure, Lee, Henry, Wright, Kirschner), her head injury had likely come first. The injury to her head was fully developed, which meant that her heart had beaten for some time after the blow. The specialist estimated that 10 to 45 minutes might have elapsed between the blow to her head and the cessation of her vital functions.

Then we have Tom Henry:

The fact that she's got this extensive of described of a blood, essentially blood clot in the scalp, to me indicates a little longer period of time that she had to survive a little more blood pumping under pressure for a longer period of time.

Werner Spitz took it to the next level. In March 2000, he decided to try and recreate the head injury using a forensic testing dummy complete with the skull of a six-year-old child. A program on the Discovery Channel interviewed him at length. You can find it here:

http://thewebsafe.tripod.com/03172000spitzondiscovery.htm

Some highlights (Spitz's responses in bold):

You believe JBR was hit on the head first, and then strangled.

Dr. WS: Yes.

LC: But in reports published this week, a former detective, who also worked on the case, claimed the head wound did not bleed enough to be the first injury, but Spitz says, he can prove his case, and it's believed the Boulder police agree.

Dr.WS: Because there was hemmoraging in the brain.

LC: There was hemmoraging in the brain?

Dr.WS: There was hemmoraging in the scalp, in the skin,in other words,

LC: Spitz says those hemmorages would not have formed if JB was already dead of strangulation when she suffered the head injury.

Dr.WS: She did have a circulation....she did have blood clots, she did have heart beat, she did breathe, for awhile, after the head injury.

LC:Let me say that the noose, made of cord similar to this, was not tied around her neck after death. He believes that she was dying of the head injury while she was strangled. His evidence,...a tell tale pattern of hemmoraging on the internal surface of her eye lids. Petechial or penpoint hemmorages.

Dr.WS: When strangulation occurs, there is a point where the blood vessels to the neck get obstructed. The blood still flows into the head, but it doesn't flow out.

LC: That's because veins, which have lower blood pressure, are shut off first. Arteries, with higher blood pressure, keep flowing longer.

Dr.WS: ........?..there is increased pressure above the knees, and tiny little blood vessels in the eyes and around the eyes, may break.

LC: But Spitz thinks the sexual assault was an attempt to disguise the crime scene, to make it look like a sex crime.

Dr.WS: I believe that the injury to the head was first, knocked her out. I think everything else here was staging.

LC: Spitz maintains the blow to the head was the central element of the murder, and he carefully studied JB's fatal skull fracture.

Dr.WS: ...? it was perfectly rectangular. That piece of bone that was knocked out, remained attached on a hinge,and was bendable.

LC: The size and shape of the fracture was so distinctive, Spitz decided to conduct his own tests, reenacting the injury.

Dr.WS: You could do it on syrofoam, you could do it on cardboard, you could do it on bone. I did it on all three.

remember, too, wecht is pretty good at what he has been doing for 50 years, too.

Fang, I've got something for you in just that regard. But not here.

BTW, that material you were asking about, referring to Borderline Personality Disorder? How did that work out?

 

[WHITEFANG]

thanks for the comprehensive explanation. thanks for the bpd stuff, too.

i am going to write to dr. wecht to ask him for a more detailed explanation. i will ask him to respond to the other doctors who've opined on the topic, too. if you have questions for him you'd like me to include, let me know.

btw, a woman is seeking a legal remedy for her recent termination. allegedly, she was fired for being too attractive. i have poured over the evidence and i've decided to offer her my expert services pro bono!

 

[BBB167893]

thanks for the comprehensive explanation. thanks for the bpd stuff, too.

No problem, man. It's what I do.

i am going to write to dr. wecht to ask him for a more detailed explanation. i will ask him to respond to the other doctors who've opined on the topic, too. if you have questions for him you'd like me to include, let me know.

I'm not sure where to start. But I can't pass up the chance.

1) Ask for a more detailed explanation about the vaginal injuries too. And the marks on JB's body.

2) Ask him if it's okay if I can quote him for the book.

btw, a woman is seeking a legal remedy for her recent termination. allegedly, she was fired for being too attractive. i have pored over the evidence and i've decided to offer her my expert services pro bono!

I didn't know you were a lawyer.

 

[WHITEFANG]

No problem, man. It's what I do.



I'm not sure where to start. But I can't pass up the chance.

1) Ask for a more detailed explanation about the vaginal injuries too. And the marks on JB's body.

2) Ask him if it's okay if I can quote him for the book.



I didn't know you were a lawyer.

i said my expert services