"Jersey" and MW #2

[Karmaa]

I don't know the last case you mentioned but the only case here that is similar is Abeyta's case. In Breeann and Tori's murder, neither of them were at home sleeping with the parent also in the home. Both girls were abducted while they were outside and murdered by people other than the parents. I know the victims' parents claimed that they failed their lie detector tests in those cases. I don't put much faith in these tests, really. I find the parents behavior in this case suspicious based on the changing time tine and their refusal to cooperate with police three days after their child goes missing. It is possible that a child can be abducted from their home while the parents are there. A case in Canada, Keinan Hebert, a 3 years old, was taken and returned by the abductor. Everyone was overjoyed and thankful. It is possible Lisa was abducted. I just don't think this is what happened in this case. I hope I'm wrong and Lisa will turn up alive. The stats show that if she was abducted by someone other than a parent, that she is likely alive. I don't have the stats link for this.

Here is a snippet of Keinan's case: http://www2.macleans.ca/2011/09/12/three-year-old-keinan-hebert-returned-to-family/

The OP was asking specifically how we knew that these parents who FAILED polygraphs were actually innocent. It was not about comparisons between cases. Just about whether innocent parents could fail a LDT.

But - you may want to go read the Fox case. It is really really similar to this case. Dad home. Mom away. Dad was out partying. Son was sleeping in unusual place (the couch). No one heard anything. LE decided that dad HAD to have done it, and ignored everything else. Community and internet all thought he was guilty. They still would if the real killer had not been caught.

 

[realmomof5]

I thought it was strange too. How would LE know so quickly that Jersey wasn't involved when this is supposed to be an on going investigation? If LE had all the answers there would have been an arrest. And why did LE initially disregard the 12:15 sighting? A baby is missing and LE disregards a baby sighting around the same time, same neighborhood, of a man going up the yard of a house that Jersey had worked at and broken into. I think LE developed their own theory early and blew off anything that didn't fit their theory. Now LE is trying to catch up and I hope it's not too late.

That is it my dear Watson!!! My brother In law has been a member of the police force for almost 20 years and believe me...by day 2 the jury was in around the department. I hate that these men and women have to see what they see on a daily basis. It definitely jades them as it would anyone. Looking at statistics, the case was solved before DB and JI ever went in for questioning. It is almost as if we need an entirely separate team for missing children cases. I know from the different departments he has worked in, there is extensive training in different areas, child abductions are happening more and more frequently (once is too frequent in my book) that if I were the parent of a missing child...I would want a team who was trained in what to look for and where to go next!
My son decided to run away at 11 hrs old. I was extremely pregnant and home with my other 3 kids as well, I called the sherriff to help me find him, 4 cars and 8 officers showed up only to look around my 20 acres in the wooded areas, looking down at the ground. Not one went looking for my son in the direction I thought he might have gone. 40 minutes later, I get a call from my mom asking if I knew where he was...strange? He had traveled 14 miles to the Library, used there phone after telling them he was running away and called my father to come get him. I literally shudder every time I think of the what if's because he hitched a ride to get that far, but the officers were at my house ONLY looking for where I might have hurried him.

I am just saying statistics work against cases like this. I would have felt better if they could have split up to find him and followed both scenarios. I loaded up my kids and went looking for him on my own but just around the neighborhood, never dreaming he would get into someone's car.

 

[Karmaa]

The Riley Fox case is very similar to this one, IMO. In that case there were several unusual factors that made the father look guilty--it was the one night where the mother just happened to be out of town and the father had been out late and put the kids to bed on the couch instead of in their bedrooms. The father failed a lie detector and gave a confession after a long interrogation. Turned out the real killer was a neighborhood petty criminal who did a lot of burglaries. He entered the house to burglarize it, saw the toddler and took her without planning it, but left behind the 7-yr-old, and the father slept through the whole thing. The offender raped and killed the little girl though he had never been a pedophile offender before. LE was absolutely convinced the father was guilty.

Reminds me a lot of this case. Not exactly the same of course, but several noticeable similarities.

Plus, LE found a pair of shoes in the water where the baby was found. The shoes "looked recent" and had the perp's name written inside each one. LE didn't think it was relevant. PLUS the cops had shown up at the perp's house after the baby was killed, but before it was known (someone called for a welfare check on him), and he asked the cops if they had found the baby yet. This was before the kidnapping was broadcast. Two incredible clues but they still didn't find the guy for 5 years.

 

[In da Middle]

When you say he was known to squat at this house, do you mean prior to LB's disappearance he was known or do you mean this info has come out since? Also who knew this? LE or people in the neighborhood? Also are the owner's of this house still gone or have they returned? I am sure they have been thoroughly investigated and the house searched. Is this correct? tia

In Da Middle,

In addition to questions in my earlier post: When the people in the house left obviously the water was left on, but how about their electricity and phone?

There is an interview with the neighbor that lives directly across the street that states he was tired of calling LE on him so many times for a long period of time. I am sure LE has searched this house. I haven't heard anything stating that they didn't.
To my knowledge all utilities are on, the owners just travel a lot. It seems Jersey wasawareofwhen they were gone. Maybe noticed vehicles that were gone for an extended period of time, or had personal knowledge of their travels.

 

[Kamille]

He has been known to squat at a house in the 3700 block of N Lister (about 6 door up) while the owner was away. He had LE called on him many times for breaking into this house (through the window, no less) by the neighbor across the street. He felt so comfortable squatting in this house, he actually listed it as his residence when he was arrested.

I did see the interview with the neighbour who spoke of Jersey staying at this house. But was he still doing this after being caught on several occasions? He's also been in the area for quite a long time. I don't remember the man stating a time frame for when he may have used that house but it was obviously before his last arrest. I also wonder if the owner has returned since then.

I assume he wasn't there when LE were going around the neighbourhood showing his picture and looking for him. Not sure if LE searched the houses on N Lister right away since the sighting was on N Chelsea but I'm sure at least the surrounding houses on N Lister were part of the initial search and that house was probably among the 200 plus that were eventually searched.

I also wonder if his head was shaved on the Saturday night when he was thrown out of the bar. Did he do it after that so that he could disguise his appearance and perhaps get back into the bar? Did he have any connections in that bar?

MOO

 

[matou]

The OP was asking specifically how we knew that these parents who FAILED polygraphs were actually innocent. It was not about comparisons between cases. Just about whether innocent parents could fail a LDT.

But - you may want to go read the Fox case. It is really really similar to this case. Dad home. Mom away. Dad was out partying. Son was sleeping in unusual place (the couch). No one heard anything. LE decided that dad HAD to have done it, and ignored everything else. Community and internet all thought he was guilty. They still would if the real killer had not been caught.

The OP and thread is about Jersey and MW. This is not a thread about lie detector tests. Just saying. I stated my feelings about lie detector tests and how I know that people claim to fail them and be innocent of their child's murder. You can go ahead and read about Keinan's case too. It is very hopeful if Lisa was abducted. The likelihood is that she is alive if she was abducted.

 

[Karmaa]

That is it my dear Watson!!! My brother In law has been a member of the police force for almost 20 years and believe me...by day 2 the jury was in around the department. I hate that these men and women have to see what they see on a daily basis. It definitely jades them as it would anyone. Looking at statistics, the case was solved before DB and JI ever went in for questioning. It is almost as if we need an entirely separate team for missing children cases. I know from the different departments he has worked in, there is extensive training in different areas, child abductions are happening more and more frequently (once is too frequent in my book) that if I were the parent of a missing child...I would want a team who was trained in what to look for and where to go next!
My son decided to run away at 11 hrs old. I was extremely pregnant and home with my other 3 kids as well, I called the sherriff to help me find him, 4 cars and 8 officers showed up only to look around my 20 acres in the wooded areas, looking down at the ground. Not one went looking for my son in the direction I thought he might have gone. 40 minutes later, I get a call from my mom asking if I knew where he was...strange? He had traveled 14 miles to the Library, used there phone after telling them he was running away and called my father to come get him. I literally shudder every time I think of the what if's because he hitched a ride to get that far, but the officers were at my house ONLY looking for where I might have hurried him.

I am just saying statistics work against cases like this. I would have felt better if they could have split up to find him and followed both scenarios. I loaded up my kids and went looking for him on my own but just around the neighborhood, never dreaming he would get into someone's car.

That was a pretty precocious baby to do all that at 11 hours old! (Just making fun of your typo, lol!) I know you meant 11 years old, and it's not funny at all in reality. I am so glad that he was safe.

My brother and I ran away from Maryland to New York City when we were 12 and 13. We took money from our bank accounts and bought bus tickets. When we got there we were like "what do we do now?" and called our uncle who lived in the city. He told us: DO NOT TALK TO ANYONE. get a cab, give my address and the doorman will pay your taxi bill. Looking back on it, I guess we were pretty brave, but mostly incredibly stupid! And thank goodness, we were lucky!

 

[askfornina]

He has been known to squat at a house in the 3700 block of N Lister (about 6 door up) while the owner was away. He had LE called on him many times for breaking into this house (through the window, no less) by the neighbor across the street. He felt so comfortable squatting in this house, he actually listed it as his residence when he was arrested.

o/t: i can't imagine how much you must wish that you would have taken a late night stroll past the Irwin/Bradley home at around...11:50ish the night baby Lisa went missing. you have been (and continue to be) such a blessing. :rocker:

 

[In da Middle]

I did see the interview with the neighbour who spoke of Jersey staying at this house. But was he still doing this after being caught on several occasions? He's also been in the area for quite a long time. I don't remember the man stating a time frame for when he may have used that house but it was obviously before his last arrest. I also wonder if the owner has returned since then.

I assume he wasn't there when LE were going around the neighbourhood showing his picture and looking for him. Not sure if LE searched the houses on N Lister right away since the sighting was on N Chelsea but I'm sure at least the surrounding houses on N Lister were part of the initial search and that house was probably among the 200 plus that were eventually searched.

I also wonder if his head was shaved on the Saturday night when he was thrown out of the bar. Did he do it after that so that he could disguise his appearance and perhaps get back into the bar? Did he have any connections in that bar?

MOO

1st BBM
Well, that is kind of self answering. If he was caught doing it multiple times, he obviously went back after being caught.

2nd BBM the houses in the entire neighborhood were searched the first day and extended into the following days as people that were missed on the first day were able to be available. They started concentrating on the Chelsea and NBT areas and worked out from there during the day. My area was being done that evening.

3rd BBM That is an idea that he may have been altering to get back in the bar. It is the closest bar currently to the neighborhood. The next closest is further up N Brighton about a mile. So if you are on foot or bicycle, distance is important.

 

[In da Middle]

o/t: i can't imagine how much you must wish that you would have taken a late night stroll past the Irwin/Bradley home at around...11:50ish the night baby Lisa went missing. you have been (and continue to be) such a blessing. :rocker:

If it had not been a Monday night, There is a very real possibility I could have been. It was so nice out, especially for an October evening, that a lot of us were out enjoying it as late as we could. If it had been a weekend night, I can almost bet more would have been out still socializing at that time. This is a neighborhood where somebody taking a midnight stroll, while not necessarily a nightly occurrence, is not uncommon on a rare, very nice night. We also have a lot of shift workers here that are out at night.

 

[mck16]

1st BBM
Well, that is kind of self answering. If he was caught doing it multiple times, he obviously went back after being caught.

2nd BBM the houses in the entire neighborhood were searched the first day and extended into the following days as people that were missed on the first day were able to be available. They started concentrating on the Chelsea and NBT areas and worked out from there during the day. My area was being done that evening.

3rd BBM That is an idea that he may have been altering to get back in the bar. It is the closest bar currently to the neighborhood. The next closest is further up N Brighton about a mile. So if you are on foot or bicycle, distance is important.

I think it is significant too that the original picture we saw of Jersey was his mug shot showing him with long bushy hair. It was MW who originally said that the picture did not look like him now as he had shaved his head. This was later confirmed when we saw Jersey in his court appearance. His looks were very very different. jmo

 

[lorann]

If it had not been a Monday night, There is a very real possibility I could have been. It was so nice out, especially for an October evening, that a lot of us were out enjoying it as late as we could. If it had been a weekend night, I can almost bet more would have been out still socializing at that time. This is a neighborhood where somebody taking a midnight stroll, while not necessarily a nightly occurrence, is not uncommon on a rare, very nice night. We also have a lot of shift workers here that are out at night.

For Lisa's sake, I am sure if you were a witness to anything, you would have reported it to LE and not spoken to the press. or us. Since you weren't, for our sakes I am glad you are our voice in the neighborhood.

 

[Kamille]

1st BBM
Well, that is kind of self answering. If he was caught doing it multiple times, he obviously went back after being caught.

2nd BBM the houses in the entire neighborhood were searched the first day and extended into the following days as people that were missed on the first day were able to be available. They started concentrating on the Chelsea and NBT areas and worked out from there during the day. My area was being done that evening.

3rd BBM That is an idea that he may have been altering to get back in the bar. It is the closest bar currently to the neighborhood. The next closest is further up N Brighton about a mile. So if you are on foot or bicycle, distance is important.

What I meant by him still doing it after being caught several times was perhaps the homeowner returned at some point and increased the security around his/her home so that he was unable to gain access through the window. And since he was supposed to be at a halfway house and he had used that address for his arrest and LE were aware of it, I don't know if he'd want to be squatting at that particular address if he was supposed to be elsewhere.

What I do find interesting about the Saturday evening bar incident is that I believe it was said he was drunk and was kicked out of the patio area for spitting on patrons? So had he gotten drunk at the bar or did he just show up to the bar already drunk? I could see him showing up to the bar already drunk and not being allowed in so he proceeded to the outdoor area trying to get patrons to buy him more alcohol and thus spitting on them when they refused. But I find it hard to believe that someone in his financial situation would spend money at a bar to get drunk in the first place. If the purpose is just to get drunk, a trip to the local store would be cheaper.

So I just wondered if he had been in the bar with other people who were buying him drinks earlier in the evening and when they left he was trying to find others to keep buying him drinks. In other words, why did he go to the bar that night? Did he frequent that bar often and did he have people there that he would socialize with? Or did he sometimes just show up there trying to get people to buy him drinks? How much of a loner was he?

If there is video surveillence of him in the bar talking with a person or persons for an extended period of time and that people were buying him drinks, I hope that LE has checked out anyone that he may have been in conversation with that night. I hope this makes sense but what I'm saying is that if this was a pre-planned event, it could have started in that bar.

MOO

 

[yllek]

1st BBM
Well, that is kind of self answering. If he was caught doing it multiple times, he obviously went back after being caught.

2nd BBM the houses in the entire neighborhood were searched the first day and extended into the following days as people that were missed on the first day were able to be available. They started concentrating on the Chelsea and NBT areas and worked out from there during the day. My area was being done that evening.

3rd BBM That is an idea that he may have been altering to get back in the bar. It is the closest bar currently to the neighborhood. The next closest is further up N Brighton about a mile. So if you are on foot or bicycle, distance is important.

BBM

Also, we know from Mary Hurt's interview on Nancy Grace that Jersey had told folks in the neighborhood about a week before Lisa's disappearance that he was wanted on a warrant (she said they were surprised to learn that). And, we know that Jersey had his head shaved sometime before 1 p.m. on Oct 3rd when Mary saw him (before the assumed window of opportunity for Lisa's disappearance), So also possible that Jersey was altering his appearance in fear that LE was out to bust him on the warrant? Imo, Jersey is able to alter his appearance dramatically (judging from very old mugshot vs. more recent mugshot vs. video of court appearance - I wouldn't recognize him as the same guy).

I'm wondering if Jersey was already evading LE. Then, when Lisa disappeared and he was unaccounted for, LE started showing his photo to folks in the area, pushing him further underground and possibly prompting him to steal a van to get the heck outta dodge.

I think it's possible that there is some connection between the Irwin house (or somebody known to the parents or at the house) and Jersey or Dane. It may have nothing to do with Lisa's abduction directly, but I do think there is some connection that we don't yet know about. I would still like to know if Samantha Brando knows Jersey, Megan or Dane. I would also like to know if Shane knows Jersey, Megan, or Dane. There was some reason for that attempted call, imo... There's not enough info for me to conclude that any of them have anything to do with Lisa at this time, but I do think the phones and the dumpster fire may involve folks that have histories of floating stolen goods and arson. Not convinced or accusing anybody, but it's not unreasonable to consider the possibility.

In Da Middle: Is One Eyed Jack's within 1/3 mile from the Irwin house?

 

[Sparklin]

The witnesses that describe a man walking with a baby, say the baby was not clothed. DB says that Lisa was wearing pajamas when she put her to bed.

Tshirt and shorts though - if it was dark and all they could see was the little arms and legs, they might have assumed she was unclothed.

 

[JohnBull]

Is there any indication that Jersey might be a paranoid schizophrenic?

 

[cindysue]

Tshirt and shorts though - if it was dark and all they could see was the little arms and legs, they might have assumed she was unclothed.

Iirc they showed parents burned clothes at an early interview I'm guessing taken out of the burned dumpster

 

[In da Middle]

For Lisa's sake, I am sure if you were a witness to anything, you would have reported it to LE and not spoken to the press. or us. Since you weren't, for our sakes I am glad you are our voice in the neighborhood.

Absolutely would NOT report anything to the media. They are bound to screw it up. We have talked to LE on multiple occasions, mostly about areas of interest to those of us who grew up in the woods when they were searching there. We also helped keep the media OUT of the area as asked when they were searching the areas the media thought they might be able to sneak in pictures when they were asked to not film. My dogs outed them! The media did not like being told to get off of private property that they did not have permission to be on.

 

[In da Middle]

In Da Middle: Is One Eyed Jack's within 1/3 mile from the Irwin house?

SBM
More like a mile. No businesses within 1/3 mile. Just residential and woods. With the exception of a school.

 

[yllek]

Is there any indication that Jersey might be a paranoid schizophrenic?

There have been no medical records released or hints at mentall illness in regards to Jersey or anyone else in this case.