Jodi Arias Trial: the weekend discussion

[creepingskills]

Obviously Jodi is crazy, but do we know if she has a history of mental illness or emotional instability? Taking any medications? I wouldn't be surprised if did go untreated her entire life (considering her ability to deceive). I hope the prosecution examined her medial records with fine tooth comb.

 

[Karmady]

From your link.

6. The relationship between the victim and the defendant is currently or was previously a romantic or sexual relationship. The following factors may be considered in determining whether the relationship between the victim and the defendant is currently or was previously a romantic or sexual relationship:

Everyone knew they were in a romantic relationship. Even Travis never denied that nor Jodi.

Agree. So, to take my example, do you think that the john would be charged with dv under that section? He clearly had a sexual relationship with the victim and it might have been ongoing and for an extended period of time. I'm skeptical. Plus, I'd have to go back and figure out what all the offenses listed in the beginning of the statute and I'm too lazy to do that right now!

Also, keep in mind that the DP is less likely (possibly the least likely) to be imposed in a dv situation. Gitana cited several studies to that effect a few days ago. So maybe it's better to NOT be a dv case if we're worried about the result.

In any event, I don't see a dv designator on the docket and I can't find the indictment, so this probably is all moot. Was she charged with a dv crime, do you know?

eta: I see you already commented on the john thing, but note that the definition doesn't require a domestic relationship, just a sexual or romantic one.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Obviously Jodi is crazy, but do we know if she has a history of mental illness or emotional instability? Taking any medications? I wouldn't be surprised if did go untreated her entire life (considering her ability to deceive). I hope the prosecution examined her medial records with fine tooth comb.

If she was crazy the DT would have done a happy dance and that would have been their defense instead of the ridiculous self defense they are promoting.

She isnt legally insane by judicial standards, imo. I think she is just another pychopath and the prisons are full of them. They know right from wrong but they just dont care.

IMO

 

[Linda7NJ]

Obviously Jodi is crazy, but do we know if she has a history of mental illness or emotional instability? Taking any medications? I wouldn't be surprised if did go untreated her entire life (considering her ability to deceive). I hope the prosecution examined her medial records with fine tooth comb.

They is no cure or pill for psychopathy


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[kkdj]

I had to comment on your post. Coming from a law enforcement background, I can tell you that LE is legally not able to get involved in custodial cases. This is a civil matter and they are not able to just "go get" a child unless the child is in danger or there has been some domestic abuse involving the child. If the child had lived with both the mom and the boyfriend, then he could very well claim that he was the father, thus instigating a civil action. I'm not saying that you aren't telling the full story, so please don't think that, but there had to be more to it than that. This officer would be risking his job by saying that "he didn't want to risk his life that night".

Just another side of the story. I just have been on too many threads that blame LE for everything and I don't want this thread to turn into that.

I appreciate your post but I would have thought this would have been considered kidnapping and/or an abduction of sorts. This guy was not the boys father, he had no rights to him, I'm assuming the boy did not go willingly with him and he was taken to and being held somewhere presumably against his will, hence running out to the aunts car.
Jmo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Agree. So, to take my example, do you think that the john would be charged with dv under that section? He clearly had a sexual relationship with the victim and it might have been ongoing and for an extended period of time. I'm skeptical. Plus, I'd have to go back and figure out what all the offenses listed in the beginning of the statute and I'm too lazy to do that right now!

Also, keep in mind that the DP is less likely (possibly the least likely) to be imposed in a dv situation. Gitana cited several studies to that effect a few days ago. So maybe it's better to NOT be a dv case if we're worried about the result.

In any event, I don't see a dv designator on the docket and I can't find the indictment, so this probably is all moot. Was she charged with a dv crime, do you know?

No I really dont. He is not in an intimate personal relationship with a hooker he pays to have sex with like an ex-boyfriend and ex-girlfriend would be.

I just read about one of the women who is on death row in Arizona. She too tried to say she was abused by her husband........she too said he attacked her even though he was terminally ill. They jury didnt buy it and gave her death.

I have faith in this jury that they will do the same.

I dont think they charge them with domestic crimes since she wound up murdering him so they only charged her with murder.

Domestic violence homicides are used by the DOJ to keep up with how many are murdered or injured because of DV. That is where Travis will be added to the statistics. Murder by an intimate partner.

IMO

 

[Justme84]

Obviously Jodi is crazy, but do we know if she has a history of mental illness or emotional instability? Taking any medications? I wouldn't be surprised if did go untreated her entire life (considering her ability to deceive). I hope the prosecution examined her medial records with fine tooth comb.

I am sure they did but honestly the defense has probably
tried to look into it just as much. Then of course the media
would be getting anything it could although medical records are
SUPPOSED to be private.

In my humble opinion, the assumptions that she must be completely
void of emotion comes from the crime scene
but things like
panic( because she
shot or stabbed him and he didn't immediately die)
Or rage ( he really really pissed her off- hence the fact that there even is a crime of passion defense) could create a scene like this.

It is very possible that she has something like borderline personality or
narcissistic personality but those things often go
undiagnosed because the person with the disorder does not
seek treatment. That being said, it has been stated frequently
as fact and no one has been put on the stand to confirm it.

 

[kkdj]

They is no cure or pill for psychopathy


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Thank you for stating this!

 

[CBTampa]

I just read that there will be two days of testimony this week and then a 2-3 week break. Has anyone heard this? If this is true, than I can understand why it will take so long to complete this trial. Is this normal in Arizona?

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am sure they did but honestly the defense has probably
tried to look into it just as much. Then of course the media
would be getting anything it could although medical records are
SUPPOSED to be private.

In my humble opinion, the assumptions that she must be completely
void of emotion comes from the crime scene
but things like
panic( because she
shot or stabbed him and he didn't immediately die)
Or rage ( he really really pissed her off- hence the fact that there even is a crime of passion defense) could create a scene like this.

It is very possible that she has something like borderline personality or
narcissistic personality but those things often go
undiagnosed because the person with the disorder does not
seek treatment. That being said, it has been stated frequently
as fact and no one has been put on the stand to confirm it.

Her behavior before during and after says differently.


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[Justme84]

I just read that there will be two days of testimony this week and then a 3 week break. Has anyone heard this? If this is true, than I can understand why it will take so long to complete this trial. Is this normal in Arizona?

No kidding! This judge is clearly not one who is strict with time.

 

[Justme84]

Her behavior before during and after says differently.


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In all of which, the details are vague at this point.

 

[norest4thewicked]

I appreciate your post but I would have thought this would have been considered kidnapping and/or an abduction of sorts. This guy was not the boys father, he had no rights to him, I'm assuming the boy did not go willingly with him and he was taken to and being held somewhere presumably against his will, hence running out to the aunts car.
Jmo

Again, we don't have the actual story of what happened. Again, I am not saying that anyone was fabricating a story. What I am saying is that those of us reading this board have one side to the story.

I was only responding in defense of law enforcement in that in a case like this, there are MANY aspects to the story.

Did another officer go to talk to the boyfriend and the boyfriend told LE that he was only removing the boy because the mother was out of control?
If LE talked to him and he seemed more rational than the mother and the child was fine with it, how is LE supposed to make the decision to return the child to the mother?

A child is extremely vulnerable, especially when two people he loves are arguing. Did the child tell LE that he was fine?

Running out to a car does not necessarily mean that a child is in danger. If he was held against his will, the adult would not have let him go to run out the door. Kids run. That's what they do.

I'm not trying to be argumentative. I'm only saying that there are several sides to a story. I posted because of the statement that was made that a police officer said something that made LE look stupid. That's all.

 

[LotusPawprint]

FWIW: I found your wording to be accurate, at least to my imagination. Admittedly, I have not spent years reading in depth on other horrible crimes. I came upon WS (and subsequently MDS) only a few months ago when reading Morgan Ingram's mom's blog. Somehow other cases keep getting my attention here. Mostly, it's like what I fear about seeing any of TA's worst wounds. Now that I have seen all of these people here, either missing or needing justice, I can't un-know it. Thus, I find myself checking on BW or LW everyday.

I hope I don't become jaded to a point where I ever find myself thinking "meh, that's not unimaginable. I've seen worse" when speaking of someone who was butchered in such a way as Travis has had done to him. I mean no disrespect to anyone who does feel that way. I do understand that repeated exposure to the same kinds of things makes one desensitized to it. It's just not how I want to be and has me contemplating whether it's a good thing for me to be so aware of horrors like this every single day.

ITA with your sentiments in this post. It's very easy to become jaded and view these horrible cases clinically, which probably comes from repeated exposure as you pointed out. Some people are better equipped to deal that way, which is fine... someone like me could never be a Medical Examiner or Lawyer with my deep emotional reaction and connection, they have the ability to be professional and detach.
I cannot seperate a victim in death from the dynamic person they were in life, the family member and friend with character and personality.

Personally I don't think I'll ever become desensitized to the stories we read about and follow here on WS - missing children and adults, victims of violent crimes. The day I find myself minimizing anything so tragic and horrific will be time for me to re-evaluate and do a gutcheck.

Also, re: the last sentence you wrote... I find myself wondering why I spend so much of my time immersed in such heavy, dark stories (not only on WS but in "real life")... Like you I contemplate whether it's good to be aware of horrors like this everyday. IMO I think as long as there is evil and pain surrounding us, there has to be a voice and force for justice and for good. By no means do I think I make a difference, but it's important for me to be aware and engaged.

 

[Linda7NJ]

In all of which, the details are vague at this point.

Vague? How so?


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[Justme84]

Vague? How so?


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Much of it is vague in that we THINK we know
what happened but much of it is pieced together
based on evidence and what we do know.

Example- telling 3 different stories
In telling 3 stories she obviously comes off as having signs of
psychopathy but in a situation where someone does not
want to go to jail, they do not have to be a psychopath to be willing
to lie to keep from facing up to their actions.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Much of it is vague in that we THINK we know
what happened but much of it is pieced together
based on evidence and what we do know.

Example- telling 3 different stories
In telling 3 stories she obviously comes off as having signs of
psychopathy but in a situation where someone does not
want to go to jail, they do not have to be a psychopath to be willing
to lie to keep from facing up to their actions.

Staged a robbery to obtain a gun, dyed hair, rented a car almost 100 miles out if her way? What did she do immediately after leaving? Call another guy, create an alabi by Climbing on top of another guyDid you see and hear her in the phone calls with the detective? Interviews? See the crime scene?

I don't think any of that is vague


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[LotusPawprint]

It is a domestic violence homicide as it should be.

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE DEFINED

Domestic violence is defined as a pattern of behaviors involving physical, sexual, economic and emotional abuse, alone or in combination, by an intimate partner often for the purpose of establishing and maintaining power and control over the other partner.

DOMESTIC VIOLENCE HOMICIDES DEFINED

Domestic violence homicides are those murders that occur between men and women, husbands and wives, boyfriends and girlfriends, boyfriends and boyfriends and girlfriends and girlfriend relationships. In fact, any murder between intimate partners would be considered a domestic violence homicide. They may also involve third party relationships, such as "love triangles" former husbands and/or wives, and jilted lovers.

INTERPERSONAL VIOLENCE ORIENTED DISPUTES AND ASSAULTS

In Practical Homicide Investigation: Tactics, Procedures, and Forensic Techniques, these murders are classified sex related homicides in the category of INTERPERSONAL VIOLENCE ORIENTED DISPUTES AND ASSAULTS or LUST MURDERS depending on what was done to the victim. The motive in this category of slayings is most often based upon elements of rage, hate, anger, jealously or revenge. The psychological dynamics involved in such violent interpersonal disputes and assaults oftentimes present scenarios which involve violent actions and the classic statement; "If I can't have you then nobody will have you." This is most common in sexual domestic dispute cases. DYNAMICS



http://www.practicalhomicide.com/Research/domviolence.htm

And we know the violence usually esculates when the victim either leaves or breaks up with the spouse or boyfriend ...girlfriend etc.

ITA of course that this was DV, so thank you for bringing over the definitions.

While some may struggle with Travis' victim status, IMO one thing is certain --the defense theory of Jodi being a DV victim is complete fiction.

"Willmott says that an expert will testify about how Arias' relationship with Alexander fits the mold of domestic violence."

I'm sure the defense hired gun will testify to anything. As someone else pointed out a couple threads back, I hope the state has their own expert to explain what you've defined - and Travis was a victim before the day of his murder.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I am sure they did but honestly the defense has probably
tried to look into it just as much. Then of course the media
would be getting anything it could although medical records are
SUPPOSED to be private.

In my humble opinion, the assumptions that she must be completely
void of emotion comes from the crime scene
but things like
panic( because she
shot or stabbed him and he didn't immediately die)
Or rage ( he really really pissed her off- hence the fact that there even is a crime of passion defense) could create a scene like this.

It is very possible that she has something like borderline personality or
narcissistic personality but those things often go
undiagnosed because the person with the disorder does not
seek treatment. That being said, it has been stated frequently
as fact and no one has been put on the stand to confirm it.

Usually those who are psychopathic are narcissistic as well. In fact one of our posters put up a link of the psychopath traits prior in one of the threads. Im not sure it was in this thread though. It was interesting to see how many traits fit JA though.

Everything we have heard and read to date shows JA as a person capable of doing the most heinous of acts......lying with ease about it and quickly moving on to another lover after she murdered a truly innocent man. Nothing we have seen thus far shows he tried to attack her. Two minutes before he died he was in his shower minding his own business when the clothed murderess took his last alive photo. He is the one with the horrible defense wounds......not JA who only had two small bandaids covering her cuts just like OJ had when he sliced Nicole and Ron to death.

But those are not viable mental disorders anyway under judicial standards. She certainly knew what she did was wrong and that is all she has to know. It is proven she did or she would not have tried to cover her tracks and tell outlandish lies trying to distance herself from being there.

If she is a psychopath even if treated with medication it would not cure her. I have read that medication actually can even make them worse because they are being treated with meds for something that isnt treatable. Mental health professionals have never learned how to grow a conscience inside of someone who does not have one.

I doubt there will be any mental issues in her past history. This is not a mental defense case. After telling various lies about what happened she then chose self defense much later on when she obtained her lawyers.

IMO

 

[CarolinaMoon]

To change the topic a bit, I've been contemplating the blood spatter evidence from Friday. Based on the testimony, it appears Travis was likely stabbed in the heart near the shower door. He possibly lunged out in surprise. He headed away from Jodi in a clockwise direction since she was probably blocking the hall to the bedroom. He went past the tub and possibly collapsed (couldn't feel his legs) and Jodi stabbed at him, causing the spatter to appear at a relatively low height. He worked his way around to the sink and tried to pull himself up at the sink. There, he coughed up blood and was continually stabbed by Jodi. He managed to crawl as far as the bedroom where she slashed his throat. She then dragged him back to the shower. By then, he was dead. She likely shot him in the head to be sure he was dead before she put him in the shower.

All of this took less than 1 1/2 minutes. Those were the most horrifyingly painful moments in Travis' life. He had to know he was dying.

I do believe Travis lunged after Jodi. It wasn't because the camera was dropped, it was because he had been stabbed in the heart.

That would explain why the walls of the shower were clean. He never bled in there until post-mortem. That blood came about because of sheer gravity.

IMHO, any stab wounds or slashing wounds after the first could in no way be part of self defense. Travis was crawling for his life and couldn't outrun the hyped-up Jodi.

As to their relative moral characters, I could care less. In the long run, the proof is in those wounds, three of them fatal.