John & the Basement

[BBB167893]

Woah, how could these people not have been arrested? Truly amazing. Agatha, this was before my time also and I am shocked!

That's the question that plagues us all, Sunnie.

 

[DeeDee249]

RTC,

Here is a discussion on the topic:
http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63733&highlight=FAO+Swartz

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It was good to revisit that. We don't really get much information from JR in that interview. As Patsy does the same thing, no one has any way of knowing whether they are telling the truth about whether things in the photos are out of place or not. And obviously, both Rs recall EXACTLY what they did that night, what they moved, what they touched. So if any of the photos point to activities involving the staging or the crime itself, they would obviously say things were out of place. It was interesting to see that JR seemed to say that the cigars were part of a gift about to be wrapped. Yet, when Patsy was questioned about the cigars, she seemed to be unaware of their existence, but said that maybe JR kept them in there. She never mentioned them as a gift. First of all, I don't believe JR would wrap gifts at all. Patsy would. And neither would wrap gifts in THAT room. I also don't believe JR wouldn't have owned at least a small humidor for cigars. No cigar smoker would leave them in a moldy room like that. Possibly they were trying to hint that the "intruder" brought the cigars with him, too. Along with the pineapple, spoon, bowl, box of tissues,, Santa bear and flashlight.
I don't believe the police ever gave an itemized list of what was in each of the boxes and who they were for. Or if the boxes were had name tags on them and if any of the opened ones were for Jenny. At this point, we don't know if the police actually looked in the boxes.

 

[UKGuy]

It was good to revisit that. We don't really get much information from JR in that interview. As Patsy does the same thing, no one has any way of knowing whether they are telling the truth about whether things in the photos are out of place or not. And obviously, both Rs recall EXACTLY what they did that night, what they moved, what they touched. So if any of the photos point to activities involving the staging or the crime itself, they would obviously say things were out of place. It was interesting to see that JR seemed to say that the cigars were part of a gift about to be wrapped. Yet, when Patsy was questioned about the cigars, she seemed to be unaware of their existence, but said that maybe JR kept them in there. She never mentioned them as a gift. First of all, I don't believe JR would wrap gifts at all. Patsy would. And neither would wrap gifts in THAT room. I also don't believe JR wouldn't have owned at least a small humidor for cigars. No cigar smoker would leave them in a moldy room like that. Possibly they were trying to hint that the "intruder" brought the cigars with him, too. Along with the pineapple, spoon, bowl, box of tissues,, Santa bear and flashlight.
I don't believe the police ever gave an itemized list of what was in each of the boxes and who they were for. Or if the boxes were had name tags on them and if any of the opened ones were for Jenny. At this point, we don't know if the police actually looked in the boxes.

DeeDee249,
Yes it helps to re-read stuff occasionally.

At this point, we don't know if the police actually looked in the boxes.

Not certain what you mean. I reckon they will have opened them and looked inside?

Some gifts were partially opened Patsy states this is because she needed to peek. I'm not satisfied with that answer, its a bit like when she says I put the size-12's into JonBenet's drawer.

Or if the boxes were had name tags on them and if any of the opened ones were for Jenny.

If the boxes had name tags why would Patsy need to peek inside? Curiously referring back to Patsy's size-12 interview she said she had already placed the size-12's into JonBenet's drawer, but made no mention of any other substitute gift for Jenny.

So there might not have any gift for Jenny deposited in the basement or wine-cellar?

Then why partially open the gifts, maybe there is another motive here, one we have overlooked?

Surely when FAO Swartz wrap gifts they name tag the gifts in some manner?

I don't believe the police ever gave an itemized list of what was in each of the boxes and who they were for.

I've never seen one, nor any mention of an empty gift wrapping.


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[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
Yes it helps to re-read stuff occasionally.


Not certain what you mean. I reckon they will have opened them and looked inside?

Some gifts were partially opened Patsy states this is because she needed to peek. I'm not satisfied with that answer, its a bit like when she says I put the size-12's into JonBenet's drawer.


If the boxes had name tags why would Patsy need to peek inside? Curiously referring back to Patsy's size-12 interview she said she had already placed the size-12's into JonBenet's drawer, but made no mention of any other substitute gift for Jenny.

So there might not have any gift for Jenny deposited in the basement or wine-cellar?

Then why partially open the gifts, maybe there is another motive here, one we have overlooked?

Surely when FAO Swartz wrap gifts they name tag the gifts in some manner?



I've never seen one, nor any mention of an empty gift wrapping.


.

I meant that I wasn't so sure the police DID actually look inside the partially unwrapped boxes. I have not seen where they said they did.
Patsy needed to look in the boxes to find the panties, because they were in a box with other things (according to her, she put several gifts together in a box).
I did not infer there were NO gifts for Jenny in the basement. What I meant was if the police ever said they FOUND a box with Jenny's name in it. This would give more credence to the panties that were bought for Jenny having been packed up to send to Jenny as opposed to being put in JB's drawer.
I never mentioned an empty gift wrapping. If LE took the partially wrapped gifts into evidence, I am sure they took them the way they found them.
FAO Scwartz may not have tagged the gifts, leaving that to the buyer, unless the buyer asks them to do so.
I don't believe LE ever said what was in the boxes or if any of them had name tags.

 

[UKGuy]

I meant that I wasn't so sure the police DID actually look inside the partially unwrapped boxes. I have not seen where they said they did.
Patsy needed to look in the boxes to find the panties, because they were in a box with other things (according to her, she put several gifts together in a box).
I did not infer there were NO gifts for Jenny in the basement. What I meant was if the police ever said they FOUND a box with Jenny's name in it. This would give more credence to the panties that were bought for Jenny having been packed up to send to Jenny as opposed to being put in JB's drawer.
I never mentioned an empty gift wrapping. If LE took the partially wrapped gifts into evidence, I am sure they took them the way they found them.
FAO Scwartz may not have tagged the gifts, leaving that to the buyer, unless the buyer asks them to do so.
I don't believe LE ever said what was in the boxes or if any of them had name tags.

DeeDee249,

Patsy needed to look in the boxes to find the panties, because they were in a box with other things (according to her, she put several gifts together in a box).

If Patsy looked in the boxes for the size-12's why would she later say she had already decided not to give them to Jenny and placed them into JonBenet's underwear drawer?

I reckon Jenny's gift(s) were made to vanish along with JonBenet's bloodstained size-6's.

Realizing their mistake the R's returned what they said were the remaining size-12's.

This demonstrates how important these size-12's were as evidence, worn and not worn!


.

 

[eileenhawkeye]

When you used to be able to see Burke's friends on FB, he was friends with Jenny Ramsey. Is she Jeff's daughter? It's sad to think that if JonBenet was alive today, her and Jenny would probably be close since she's only a few years older than JBR.

 

[DeeDee249]

When you used to be able to see Burke's friends on FB, he was friends with Jenny Ramsey. Is she Jeff's daughter? It's sad to think that if JonBenet was alive today, her and Jenny would probably be close since she's only a few years older than JBR.

The "Jenny" for whom the panties were originally bought had a different last name, not Ramsey. The Jenny you saw may be Jeff's daughter, though.

 

[twinkiesmom]

Could Patsy have become resentful towards JonBenet? Here is JonBenet asserting her autonomy, displaying sexualised behaviour when she has likely been told not to make such requests?
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Do you have evidence that Patsy had a problem with JonBenet making such requests? The fact that various adults were allowed to wipe her is a strong sign that proper boundaries were not in place. Why wouldn't any sane adult not related to her refuse to do it and coach her into wiping herself?

 

[Toltec]

The "Jenny" for whom the panties were originally bought had a different last name, not Ramsey. The Jenny you saw may be Jeff's daughter, though.

Jenny Davis...Polly Paugh Davis daughter. Didn't know Polly had a daughter that old...12. I know Polly had a child in 1993.

 

[DeeDee249]

Do you have evidence that Patsy had a problem with JonBenet making such requests? The fact that various adults were allowed to wipe her is a strong sign that proper boundaries were not in place. Why wouldn't any sane adult not related to her refuse to do it and coach her into wiping herself?

Well, I would certainly have not allowed it, as I am sure most would agree. You are right- proper boundaries seemed to be missing here. If it were me she'd asked, I'd probably see if her mother was available. If I were her mother, I wouldn't want any other adult, especially a male, to be in the bathroom with my daughter. My grandson has ASKED for privacy in the bathroom since he was THREE. While we wait outside the door, more to be sure we hear him washing his hands, we do not enter unless he has dressed himself. On rare occasions he may need help- but he is FOUR, not six. There is quite a difference in maturity over the next 2 years.
Interesting - his underwear never has any fecal staining. It isn't hard to teach a child to wipe properly.

 

[Whaleshark]

I found this thread today and read through the whole thing...

Guess I am just highlighting this testimony below to digest and consider the possiblities and implications of JR saying that he himself went down to wrap presents, or that he thinks he might have...of course there's no commitment: thinks, not sure, can't remember, yadda yadda, but if he did, and it's a possibility, as he puts it, it was to get things ready to go on the airplane the next day....I'm used to remembering Patsy stating she wrapped on the 24th and 25th down there, but didn't remember that JR said he did. There are theories in this thread as to why he places himself connected to the wine cellar, and one is the possibility that it is to explain why he would have been there at all and why his fibers or dna or prints would have been down there. But maybe he was, and maybe he did wrap, but either way it adds to the possibility that both parents knew what items were wrapped and in the wine cellar.....

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Butler Kitchen)

0089
19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents
21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,
22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some
23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I
24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think

0090
1 those were there.
2 LOU SMIT: So when you wrapped them, the
3 items, you wrapped them, where would you get the
4 wrapping paper and all the things?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I could have either
6 gotten it from there or down in the basement.
7 Patsy had by the (INAUDIBLE) a bunch of wrapping
8 paper and stuff, and I think there was some there
9 in the butler's kitchen area as well. I might have
10 even went downstairs to get the paper and stuff. I
11 don't remember. That's where a lot of them would
12 have been.
13 LOU SMIT: I think what I'm trying to get
14 at is, did you go into the wine cellar at that
15 time in order to get any of these items?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It wouldn't
17 have been out of the question or impossible.
___

 

[UKGuy]

I found this thread today and read through the whole thing...

Guess I am just highlighting this testimony below to digest and consider the possiblities and implications of JR saying that he himself went down to wrap presents, or that he thinks he might have...of course there's no commitment: thinks, not sure, can't remember, yadda yadda, but if he did, and it's a possibility, as he puts it, it was to get things ready to go on the airplane the next day....I'm used to remembering Patsy stating she wrapped on the 24th and 25th down there, but didn't remember that JR said he did. There are theories in this thread as to why he places himself connected to the wine cellar, and one is the possibility that it is to explain why he would have been there at all and why his fibers or dna or prints would have been down there. But maybe he was, and maybe he did wrap, but either way it adds to the possibility that both parents knew what items were wrapped and in the wine cellar.....

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane (Butler Kitchen)

0089
19 LOU SMIT: Where were those presents kept?
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well there were some presents
21 in a little, what we call, the butler's kitchen,
22 but it was a lower level kitchen. There were some
23 presents some presents down there. In fact, I
24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think

0090
1 those were there.
2 LOU SMIT: So when you wrapped them, the
3 items, you wrapped them, where would you get the
4 wrapping paper and all the things?
5 JOHN RAMSEY: I think I could have either
6 gotten it from there or down in the basement.
7 Patsy had by the (INAUDIBLE) a bunch of wrapping
8 paper and stuff, and I think there was some there
9 in the butler's kitchen area as well. I might have
10 even went downstairs to get the paper and stuff. I
11 don't remember. That's where a lot of them would
12 have been.
13 LOU SMIT: I think what I'm trying to get
14 at is, did you go into the wine cellar at that
15 time in order to get any of these items?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It wouldn't
17 have been out of the question or impossible.
___

Whaleshark,

3 LOU SMIT: I think what I'm trying to get
14 at is, did you go into the wine cellar at that
15 time in order to get any of these items?
16 JOHN RAMSEY: I don't remember. It wouldn't
17 have been out of the question or impossible.

I doubt he would have been wearing his black Israeli shirt though?

If Patsy had intended Jenny to receive the size-12's then its possible that John may have known about their existence and location, particularly if he had been tasked with taking them to the plane?

So later on whe he wipes down JonBenet and thinks she needs to be dressed properly, maybe he automatically reached out for the size-12's used a Wednesday pair, becuase he thought that would be the most obvious pair. Then he removed the remainder since his forensic traces were probably all over the packaging of the Bloomingdales?


.

 

[Whaleshark]

I doubt he would have been wearing his black Israeli shirt though?.

If he wrapped on Xmas Day like he said he did, isn't that what he was wearing that day?

Per John:

In fact, I
24 think I wrapped some Christmas day to take to the
25 airplane to get ready for the next day. I think
1 those were there.

If Patsy had intended Jenny to receive the size-12's then it's possible that John may have known about their existence and location, particularly if he had been tasked with taking them to the plane?

Makes sense to me as a plausible option. So whether he wrapped them or not, he had to know which gifts were to go, if he was the one taking them to the plane. And he puts himself wrapping on Xmas Day, but Patsy also put herself wrapping on Xmas day. He puts himself getting stuff ready to take to the plane; she and he also puts her doing last minute wrapping and getting stuff ready for the trip and plane as well.

So later on whe he wipes down JonBenet and thinks she needs to be dressed properly, maybe he automatically reached out for the size-12's, used a Wednesday pair because he thought that would be the most obvious pair. Then he removed the remainder since his forensic traces were probably all over the packaging of the Bloomingdales?

Also a plausible option...they both know there are gifts down there, and that some still needed wrapping before going on the trip and everything still needed to get on the plane.

But also if you notice from here:
http://www.acandyrose.com/s-evidence-fao-swartz.htm

All the gifts in FAO Schwarz paper would have been gift-wrapped and sent by the store. Neither Patsy nor John wrapped those, but there were 3 FAO Schwarz-wrapped paper that were considered 'partially wrapped', which Patsy states she peeked into because she didn't remember what they were, and some were to be set aside for Burke's birthday in January.

June 1998 John Ramsey Interrogation by Lou Smit and Mike Kane
(Presents in Wine Cellar)

0271
24 LOU SMIT: Okay. we'll get off that subject
25 for just a little while, may be I'll come back to
1 it later. I'm going to just touch a little bit on
2 presents, okay?
3 JOHN RAMSEY: Um hmm.
4 LOU SMIT: And I wanted to do that and kind
6 of lead into various photographs, okay? I've got
7 photographs of the wine cellar. And these were
8 taken during the course of the crime scene
9 investigation. And it shows various presents in
10 the wine cellar. And I just had a couple questions
11 on that.
12 It's 263, 264, 265, 266, 267 -- I'm sorry. We'll
13 eliminate those 266, 267 and 268. we'll just
14 concentrate on the first three. And we'll just
15 show that to the camera and that will make up
16 somewhat of an image. Do you have any comments
17 about that, or does anything that looks out of
18 place? Because you're the one that knows basically
19 your house.
20 JOHN RAMSEY: Well Patsy had gotten a bunch
21 of gifts at FAO Swartz up in New York in early
22 December, some of which were for them were for
23 Burke's birthday, which was in January. She didn't
24 know they were in the closet exactly,

13 LOU SMIT: You notice how the packages seem
14 to be partially opened. Can you explain this?
15 JOHN RAMSEY: No, I can't.
16 LOU SMIT: So Patsy had gone there and
17 just kind looked to see what was (INAUDBILE)?
18 JOHN RAMSEY: It's possible. (INAUDIBLE) I mean,
19 you can figure out what's in them. The cigar box
20 was sitting on a paint can, or something like
21 that. And I believe it shouldn't have.
___

TOM HANEY: Before we go on, could we just
18 talk briefly about the packages, these were presents
19 for whom, the ones that were left in there?
PATSY RAMSEY: I believe for, you know, I
21 held some back for Burke's birthday which is in
22 January.
23 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
24 TOM HANEY: So that could have been that.
25 PATSY RAMSEY: Yeah. I don't remember what
1 was in them.
2 TOM HANEY: Would any of these packages be
3 opened?
4 PATSY RAMSEY: Probably. Well, see, these
5 came up, I was at FAO Schwartz in New York when
6 JonBenet and I were up there for a trip, and I had them
7 sent back to Boulder and they wrapped them, free gift
8 wrapping.
9 So like right here it looks like I kind of
10 peeled a little back to see what was in it because I
11 couldn't remember what was in them.
12 TRIP DEMUTH: If the wrapping has been undone
13 partially, that was --
14 PATSY RAMSEY: I probably would have done
15 that to peek to see what was in there.
16 TRIP DEMUTH: Okay.
17 TOM HANEY: Where did you do the bulk of your
18 Christmas shopping, the items you put in there?
19 PATSY RAMSEY: Well, all of this stuff right
20 here was from FAO Schwartz in New York.

__


Bloomingdale's panties: not FAO Schwarz, so not gift-wrapped by FAO Schwarz. Were they wrapped in other paper...were they going to be a gift at all?

Okay so the more I read on the gifts the more I found on the underwear.... and I'm about to get into the underwear more...so maybe I'll just put the rest of the train of thought -- or where it's leading me to -- on the underwear thread......