JonBenet's Skull Fractures: The Weapon

[Bayareamom]

deca,

Oh, I'm a firm believer in 'nothing is always as it seems.' I certainly don't believe that the Ramseys had a perfect marriage/family. I certainly believe, though, that Patsy and John DID love one another - very much. But perfect? No.

 

[Bayareamom]

deca,

I'm a firm believer in the saying, "nothing is always as it seems.' While I never once felt that the Ramseys had a 'perfect' marriage, I do believe they loved one another.

Self-preservation is a human instinct. EVEN if the Ramseys didn't have a perfect marriage/love/family, doesn't mean that they wouldn't have striven to protect their family unit at all costs.

Some people feel their facade or illusion as to the perfect wife, husband, marriage, family, etc., is to be protected at all costs, most especially when there is this perceived notion that to lose one's prestige in society would be one of the worst things imaginable.

I think this would have been more Patsy's issue than perhaps, John's. So as I've said, I think the very realization of John's that he could possibly be left struggling to raise two little ones on his own, all the while having to run a corporate business, etc., was just overwhelming to him, which provided the motivation for him to participate in the cover-up.

I've just heard that there a few of John's clothing fibers found on JonBenet's underwear. I hadn't heard that before. How this would all fit in with my scenario above, I don't know, but I'm completely willing to stay open minded about that as it relates to the possibility of John's involvement with JonBenet's murder.

But given what the police state they found during their interviews with various members of John's company, his friends and acquaintances, it just doesn't FIT that John was involved - at least, not with the murder.

The cover-up, though...absolutely.

 

[Bayareamom]

I see now that the annual Christmas Tour did not happen in 1996; it happened in 1994. But still, Patsy always put an enormous amount of effort into her holiday festivities, so the pressure she put on herself at Christmas time, even w/o a tour situation, must have still been overwhelming.

 

[Darlene733510]

I hope otg will read this post. He mentioned the rolling pin from the kitchen. I just want to let him know that there are rolling pins made out of marble. Cooks like them because they are heavy and roll out the dough much easier. Did PR have one of these, and was it used on JB in the kitchen?

 

[otg]

otg,

You must demonstrate it happened in the kitchen first, otherwise you might be guilty of confirmation bias.

No, I don’t need to demonstrate anywhere that it happened. I think you missed the point of what I was saying. The kitchen is not part of any theory I have espoused. I stated two “if” locations simply to illustrate the concept of accessibility/availability and likelihood as they relate to a particular weapon that might have caused the head wound. I don’t believe it was a rolling pin; I used that as the example. Right now, I’m not trying to prove where it might have occurred. It could have happened in any room in the house; but based on what we know, that part of her injuries most likely happened in one of four rooms. Chief Kolar stated that he thinks the head blow happened in the kitchen. I don’t. But I know that he has seen evidence that we haven’t, and he has information that has still not been released to the public, so I give that possibility more weight than I would have based on his knowledge. I still lean toward everything (except for the pineapple snack) happening in the basement.

I reckon it simply depends on what you think took place. i.e. was JonBenet's sexual assault and head injury more or less simultaneous, e.g. something close to hand was used.

Alternatively was JonBenet sexually assaulted and whilst being constrained by her neck she fell into a coma. Subsequently someone visits the kitchen returns with a rolling pin, and whacks JonBenet above her parietal lobe?

Yes, that’s correct. Many things we think about this are based on what we know up to this point, and what we can imagine might have happened. But again, the rolling pin is not my theory, nor do I think it very likely to have been used.

A metal door handle in the shape of a globe might inflict such an injury if someone was fighting with JonBenet, holding her by neck, to keep her from fleeing via the door, but when JonBenet falls unconcious she collapses backwards onto the handle.

The latter is a bit contrived but is in accord with the idea of an accidental death.

.

Everything in this example is completely impossible. A globe shaped anything against the globe shape of a skull will not make an oval shaped impression. Falling unconscious (regardless of the circumstances leading up to it) and collapsing backwards onto anything will not be enough force to crack anyone’s skull.

So why try to contrive anything simply to be in accordance with the idea of an accidental death? Why not theorize (since we'll never know) based on what we know and what we can surmise, and then decide if the resulting theory supports accidental, premeditation, or something in between?

 

[otg]

I hope otg will read this post.

:seeya: How could he miss it when you post only a minute before he finishes answering another post? :floorlaugh:

But seriously, I read all the posts. It may take me a while to answer one, but I will read it... eventually.

He mentioned the rolling pin from the kitchen. I just want to let him know that there are rolling pins made out of marble. Cooks like them because they are heavy and roll out the dough much easier. Did PR have one of these, and was it used on JB in the kitchen?

I didn't think about it, Darlene, but yes, thank you for reminding me of the marble rolling pins. That would certainly add more weight to one and make it much harder than the cheap one I had access to. (Why couldn't I have read this before I told UKGuy I didn't think the rolling pin was very likely?)

But I'll pass this information on to him.:dance:

 

[dodie20]

Bayareamom, I agree with so much you said, and I also think the chocolates would be motive for a rage. I also believe PR was more than capable of causing the prior injuries. But, for this theory to be close, we have to accept that at some point, things went from accident to cold blooded murder. Somebody built that garotte and deliberately strangled JB, and that person also raped her with a paintbrush. What kind of rage would last long enough to lead to this? At some point, a rage would dissipate and remorse would set in, but I don't see much remorse here, just more trauma piled on top of trauma. IMO, if the killer was a woman, she might have been trying to give the allusion of a male killer, (with the rape), but I don't know, because this might have been done to hide prior abuse. IMO, the most likely theory seems to be a case of ongoing abuse, a rage and then self preservation. But, even with this theory, there are a lot of things that don't add up. Mainly JR. IMO, we have to be careful in giving him too much benefit of the doubt here. The grand jury voted to indict him too, so IMO, there was evidence to back up that he was more than just an innocent bystander. Also, he Did find the body, and if that isn't a red flag, I don't know what is. Linda Arndt was very suspicious of him, and I noticed in the Barbara Walters interview, the show seemed to center around him. After reading his own words in police interviews, I have a hard time seeing him as a victim. This man was covering and changing stories for some reason, and IMO, it was motivated by more than his 'love' for PR. all moo

 

[wengr]

The chocolates are interesting, and can be a problem when one brings a theory to the chocolates. As they are possibly of evidentiary value, I try instead let the chocolates lead me to the theory. So keeping to the residents- who would do such a thing?
Parents - unlikely
JB - why would someone do this to her own candy?
So who is left?

And if he went on to later do what I suspect that he did to JB, then expressing his feelings about her by smearing fecal material on her chocolate is not remotely surprising.

 

[dodie20]

I hope otg will read this post. He mentioned the rolling pin from the kitchen. I just want to let him know that there are rolling pins made out of marble. Cooks like them because they are heavy and roll out the dough much easier. Did PR have one of these, and was it used on JB in the kitchen?

Also, I remember around this time, (1990's), it became kind of trendy to use rolling pins as decoration. My mother bought me a hand made wooden one from Arkansas, and somebody else gave me a marble one. I've never actually used them, but I'll tell you, I sure would hate to be hit with one of them.

 

[dodie20]

The chocolates are interesting, and can be a problem when one brings a theory to the chocolates. As they are possibly of evidentiary value, I try instead let the chocolates lead me to the theory. So keeping to the residents- who would do such a thing?
Parents - unlikely
JB - why would someone do this to her own candy?
So who is left?

And if he went on to later do what I suspect that he did to JB, then expressing his feelings about her by smearing fecal material on her chocolate is not remotely surprising.

It could go either way, but I've suspected that the chocolates and feces belonged to JB. This was an abused little girl, and IMO, she might have zoned out when doing such things. One thing I know about abused children, is they often punish themselves...maybe because of self loathing? So, her ruining her own candy wouldn't surprise me. Especially if it was gift from her abuser. But, BR also suffered from the same wetting and soiling issues, so who knows. moo

 

[dodie20]

The chocolates are interesting, and can be a problem when one brings a theory to the chocolates. As they are possibly of evidentiary value, I try instead let the chocolates lead me to the theory. So keeping to the residents- who would do such a thing?
Parents - unlikely
JB - why would someone do this to her own candy?
So who is left?

And if he went on to later do what I suspect that he did to JB, then expressing his feelings about her by smearing fecal material on her chocolate is not remotely surprising.

Here's something else to consider. Awhile back, a poster mentioned that she thought PR smeared the chocolates out of pure meanness. Well, why not? We give the parents the benefit of the doubt on this, but why should we? If JR gave the chocolates to JB, as a special little gift, who's to say that PR, in a jealous rage, didn't ruin them? This is the same mother who wrote about beheading her daughter and said killing wouldn't be difficult. just a thought.

 

[wengr]

Here's something else to consider. Awhile back, a poster mentioned that she thought PR smeared the chocolates out of pure meanness. Well, why not? We give the parents the benefit of the doubt on this, but why should we? If JR gave the chocolates to JB, as a special little gift, who's to say that PR, in a jealous rage, didn't ruin them? This is the same mother who wrote about beheading her daughter and said killing wouldn't be difficult. just a thought.

Maybe so. I can't prove a negative of course, and I can accept that everyone had access to them and could have done it. My point I guess is that we all spin things like this to fit our favored narrative. I feel it's helpful to me sometimes to drop the theory, stop over intellectualizing, and try to feel what the evidence expresses.
A parent is in a position of authority and can punish to a point with impunity. They have no need to stoop to underhanded tricks. Imo it smacks of immaturity. Ymmv of course.

 

[dodie20]

Maybe so. I can't prove a negative of course, and I can accept that everyone had access to them and could have done it. My point I guess is that we all spin things like this to fit our favored narrative. I feel it's helpful to me sometimes to drop the theory, stop over intellectualizing, and try to feel what the evidence expresses.
A parent is in a position of authority and can punish to a point with impunity. They have no need to stoop to underhanded tricks. Imo it smacks of immaturity. Ymmv of course.

agreed and I'm not too keen on this theory myself, just thought it was worth a mention. Mainly the reason I don't like the theory isn't because PR was the mother, but IMO, if she was doing these kinds of things, somebody would have noticed and hopefully intervened. And if they didn't intervene, (like so much else that went ignored), at the least, somebody would have said something by now.

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Kolar strongly implies Burke as having scatological behaviors, not JB. Also there is no evidence anywhere at all to suggest that PR sexually abused her daughter. And make no mistake, JB was raped the night of her death.

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

One more vital point; the head bash occurred because of a reaction on JB's part to the severe sexual abuse she was undergoing at the time. Either she screamed and the abuser bashed her to shut her up, or he bashed her to control her because she was trying to fight back. The discovery of the identity of the abuser is they key to solving the whole crime. Someone was getting a lot of thrills from sexually abusing this girl, and the motive in this crime is sex. I do not believe for one second that the paint brush insertion was a "cover-up" to mask the chronic abuse. It was part of that evenings exploration and ESCALLATION of the sexual abuse that had been going on for some time. No way would so much effort be put into cleaning up and covering up of the sexual abuse that went on that night if this were the case. The Ramsey's did NOT want the rape to be discovered. And I highly doubt that they ever thought that her vagina was going to be dissected out and all of the trauma revealed.
My own opinions only.

 

[otg]

Welcome to WS, Bayareamom. You’ve already laid out quite a bit of information, so I don’t have to tell you to speak up if you have something you want to add to the conversation.

I won’t try to convince you one way or another as to who did what, but I will point out other possibilities for you to consider. I also always listen to others’ ideas and consider them even though I may think differently. I’ve said many times before, and I’ll tell you also, I don’t want to be right about who I think is responsible for JonBenet’s death. But I don’t see it as the “brutal murder” that so many others see it as. For this reason, I can’t help but sympathize with every member of the family for the tragic circumstances that they had to deal with. I think JR and PR made decisions about how to handle the circumstances that not many other people would have made (or even considered). Stupid decisions. But decisions nevertheless that accomplished what they wanted, even though the unforeseen consequence of their actions was to make this whole story worldwide news and make them suspect and the scorn of much of the public.

[FONT=&quot]So bear with me and I’ll simply ask you to consider a few other possibilities in what you’ve stated.

[/FONT]

I realize Kolar is somewhat aligned with the BDI theory, but that's just never resonated with me for some reason. One reason would be that the Ramseys had Burke so quickly taken out of their home that following morning. I cannot imagine that Burke would have been able to compose himself with his family's adult friends on the way to the White home. Just imagining him behaving in such a way as to be determined 'normal' under the BDI theory, and now finding himself in a car with two adult friends of his parents and keeping it all together, just does not resonate.

Consider here that a choice was made between sending him off to another place amongst friends who wouldn’t be asking him many questions, or leaving him there in the house where eventually he would be expected to be awake and probably questioned by the police about what he might have heard or seen during the night. Consider also how he was supposedly awakened without any knowledge of what had happened during the night on a day that he had expected to be going away on a vacation to Charlevoix. Then he’s brought downstairs to a house full of people (including the police) and whisked away through the crowd (with his mother sobbing and wailing in the adjacent room) to be taken to someone else’s house. All this, and he doesn’t even ask one single question about what’s going on?

It is quite possible that JonBenet and Burke would have explored one another's bodies, as children are want to do at various developmental stages in their life times (I did this as well with a friend of mine when I was a little older than Burke), but going from what is perceived as a very normal thing to do, to then stating that Burke must have had something to do with JonBenet's murder, is a bit of a stretch for me.

So above, if it is BR, you refer to it as a murder. But below, when you are speaking about PR possibly being the one responsible, you say that you really do believe the death to be accidental, and that you “don't for one moment, doubt that”.

By the by, I neglected to say that I really do believe this death was accidental. I don't for one moment, doubt that. To ME, the fact that JonBenet's body was wrapped up in a blanket when John found her, that there was a red heart drawn on her palm and that she'd been found with a Barbie nightgown near her body, speaks to the heartbreak and anguish of the person who did this to her.

Patsy.

Now, since you’ve considered my points, I’ll give you something that will add to the case for it to be her father who was abusing her (although I don’t personally believe that to be the case) from the following portion of your post:

Speaking of business trips, I recently read in one of my books that JonBenet would often chat up with the Ramsey gardener. Scott was his name (last name or first name, cannot recall). The gardener recalls that on one particular occasion, JonBenet told him that her Dad was gone, away on a business trip, and that she REALLY MISSED HIM. The gardener states that JonBenet teared up when she spoke of her father.

What little girl, if she was horribly abused by her dad on a consistent basis, would tear up and profess to really, really miss him? Doesn't make any sense to me. John was gone A LOT...which leaves two other people of whom were around JonBenet a lot more than John, Patsy and Burke.

Have you ever heard that when children are abused, particularly physically or emotionally abused, they tend to “cling” to that person responsible for the abuse? I’m not a psychologist (there are those here who are more qualified than me to address the reasons for this), so I don’t have a complete understanding of this or how to explain it. But I think it has to do with the child’s desire for approval from the person they feel is punishing them in some way.

Again, I don’t believe JR was the person molesting her. But I do consider all possibilities despite my current opinions.

I've already stated why I don't think Burke had anything to do with any of this. But again, that's just my opinion.

We all have them. They are based on what we know about this case and our own personal life experiences. That’s why I won’t try to convince you of anything -- I’ll just ask you to consider other possibilities.

And again, welcome to WS. I'll be reading your posts with interest because I can see you've put a lot of thought into them.

 

[otg]

One more vital point; the head bash occurred because of a reaction on JB's part to the severe sexual abuse she was undergoing at the time. Either she screamed and the abuser bashed her to shut her up, or he bashed her to control her because she was trying to fight back. The discovery of the identity of the abuser is they key to solving the whole crime. Someone was getting a lot of thrills from sexually abusing this girl, and the motive in this crime is sex. I do not believe for one second that the paint brush insertion was a "cover-up" to mask the chronic abuse. It was part of that evenings exploration and ESCALLATION of the sexual abuse that had been going on for some time. No way would so much effort be put into cleaning up and covering up of the sexual abuse that went on that night if this were the case. The Ramsey's did NOT want the rape to be discovered. And I highly doubt that they ever thought that her vagina was going to be dissected out and all of the trauma revealed.
My own opinions only.

I started to bbm things in your post to point out the things that I absolutely agreed with, RD. But it ended up that it was all bolded, so I decided to turn it off.

Anyway... Just had to say that I agree with you about everything there. :yesss:

 

[Rashi'sDaughter]

Wow, otg, that is high praise indeed, coming from a man with your intellectual gifts. Thanks very much, and keep on keepin' on!:great:

 

[wengr]

One more vital point; the head bash occurred because of a reaction on JB's part to the severe sexual abuse she was undergoing at the time. Either she screamed and the abuser bashed her to shut her up, or he bashed her to control her because she was trying to fight back. The discovery of the identity of the abuser is they key to solving the whole crime. Someone was getting a lot of thrills from sexually abusing this girl, and the motive in this crime is sex. I do not believe for one second that the paint brush insertion was a "cover-up" to mask the chronic abuse. It was part of that evenings exploration and ESCALLATION of the sexual abuse that had been going on for some time. No way would so much effort be put into cleaning up and covering up of the sexual abuse that went on that night if this were the case. The Ramsey's did NOT want the rape to be discovered. And I highly doubt that they ever thought that her vagina was going to be dissected out and all of the trauma revealed.
My own opinions only.

Well said. It could be that on this occasion, JB stood up for herself and threatened to tell. Maybe she tried to break away to tell immediately. Quite possibly this reaction cost her her life. As you claim, the death of JB is sexually motivated incident. And imo, the main factor in the resultant cover up is shame of the sexual nature of the incident.

 

[midwest mama]

Well said. It could be that on this occasion, JB stood up for herself and threatened to tell. Maybe she tried to break away to tell immediately. Quite possibly this reaction cost her her life. As you claim, the death of JB is sexually motivated incident. And imo, the main factor in the resultant cover up is shame of the sexual nature of the incident.

Yes, yes, yes - to those of you who agree this is a sexually motivated, bash JB because you fear you can't keep her controlled/quiet this time, attempt to cover-up the molestation that was escalating so perpetrator is not discovered immediately by family/police when body is found strangled to death by fake kidnapper who was not able to dispose of the body as planned, but who was careful enough to leave a convoluted ransom note behind in order to try to fool others into believing JB was killed by a 'monstrous' intruder! :twocents: and :moo: