Journalistic Ransom Note

[BlueCrab]

This is probably a dumb question but has john ramsey been ruled out as the donor of the saliva in JonBenet's panties?

duffy,

John Ramsey was ruled out as the donor of the DNA in JonBenet's panties as were, supposedly, all male Ramseys. However, I personally don't trust the DNA results that were leaked because, in Colorado, it is legal to lie to protect the identity of a minor.

 

[Camper]

Patsy told LE that she asked JonBenet to wash up...e.g. her hands. When LE asked Patsy whether JonBenet had indeed washed up, her answer was "I don't know." She further said that if JonBenet could get away without washing, she would.

No bath on the 25th...last bath, most likely the 24th, before church and dinner at Pasta Jays...the restaurant with the public toilets.

--------->>>Oh thank you Toltec, public toilet that is a good lead. Bet she had on the same panties both days too, I am guessing, but IF IF a mother did not know whether her child 6 year old had cleaned up, how would she know IF IF she had changed her panties either?

Here is another nugget to think on, IF IF someone did spit in a toilet and hit dead center ok, perhaps when the toilet was flushed some residue flew up onto the toilet seat, IF IF the flushing action was particularly robust!

The business buildings on the Pearl Street Mall are older structures, and may not have had such wondrous plumbing fixtures, donut know. Anyone reading who has gone to the powder room in Pasta Jays, ever er about 9 years ago?


.

About the spitting, one person, one time, and sorta missing would be enough. Not everyone spits in the toilet, but all WE need is for one person to have done it. Again sorta missing would leave the underside of the toilet seat open for not as quick drying as an exposed area.

I used to be fond of asking posters to do an at home test on some bright ideas that I had years ago. Some people took me up on it. Check and see where your panties hit when you as an adult, sit on the THRONE.

 

[BlueCrab]

The business buildings on the Pearl Street Mall are older structures, and may not have had such wondrous plumbing fixtures, donut know. Anyone reading who has gone to the powder room in Pasta Jays, ever er about 9 years ago?

About the spitting, one person, one time, and sorta missing would be enough. Not everyone spits in the toilet, but all WE need is for one person to have done it. Again sorta missing would leave the underside of the toilet seat open for not as quick drying as an exposed area.

Okay Camper, let's discuss toilet seats.

Commercial toilet seats, such as at Pasta Jay's, would have open fronts (horseshoe shaped) and it would be almost impossible to transfer DNA onto the crotch of JonBenet's underwear from the toilet seat. The crotch of the underwear cannot touch the toilet seat because there's no toilet seat at that front central location.

 

[Lacy Wood]

Sorry, I don't know anything much about toilet seats except that one girl I knew in school claimed she got a STD from one and nobody believed her.

But this is a thread about the ransom note so I'm going to repeat an item from the Chris Wolf interview...which was lengthy and some folks may not have gone through it to see what was to me, a fascinating tidbit.

Chris Wolf states one of his handwriting experts, Gideon Epstein, was dismissed by Judge Carnes in the case because Epstein was "certain" PR wrote the ransom note. He described "100% certainty". The Judge apparently wouldn't accept that. (You can check the interview above and scan down to 17:46)

I did a brief search to see if there was a credentialing issue but Epstein seems to be at the top of the field, even instructing at the FBI. The Judge seemed to be rejecting the idea that any methodology could support a 100% conclusion. (I saw a very interesting thread here about 6 months ago on the handwriting in the note, experts comments, etc, but I don't know if this was discussed.)

The interview is very interesting for those with time to go through. There is considerable insight into the problems a plaintiff faces in such a lawsuit.

 

[tipper]

[...]
Chris Wolf states one of his handwriting experts, Gideon Epstein, was dismissed by Judge Carnes in the case because Epstein was "certain" PR wrote the ransom note. He described "100% certainty". The Judge apparently wouldn't accept that. (You can check the interview above and scan down to 17:46)

I did a brief search to see if there was a credentialing issue but Epstein seems to be at the top of the field, even instructing at the FBI. The Judge seemed to be rejecting the idea that any methodology could support a 100% conclusion. (I saw a very interesting thread here about 6 months ago on the handwriting in the note, experts comments, etc, but I don't know if this was discussed.)

The interview is very interesting for those with time to go through. There is considerable insight into the problems a plaintiff faces in such a lawsuit.

While poking around I found these quotes at the 2BWS. It would be interesting to watch a round-table discussion between the experts Osborn refers to and Epstein.

October 31, 1997
Thomas C. Miller, Esq
700 Clermont Street
Denver, Co 80220
Dear Tom:
Could you please fax me a copy of your C.V.F. My fax is (212)496-xxxx. I need to begin preparing your court affidavit, and a recital of your qualifications as a handwriting expert is essential.
You might be interested to know that I spoke with handwriting expert Paul A. Osborn who is, as you probably already know, the grandson of Albert S. and son of Albert D. Osborn. He refuses to touch the Ramsey case with a ten foot pole. His reasons: he knows the handwriting experts who gave their reports to the defense team and to C.B.I. – four in all. According to Osborn these experts are supposedly top of their field (he won’t give me their names) with impeccable ethical credentials. Their verdict: the similiarities between Patsy and the ransom note writers handwriting is at the very lowest end of the spectrum, i.e. there is little or no basis for match.
I don’t have to tell you what is going to happen when I present your report and affidavit to a district court judge. When Alex Hunter and Hal Haddon are finished with you, you will either look like Henry Lee or Dennis Fung. Obviously, this is going to be a "defining moment" for both of us. My former law professor Barry Scheck just took a wicked hit in the Nanny murder trial, so it can happen to the best of us.
Trust me (as they say in Hollywood) when I tell you that if you’re doing this solely for the money, then you’re nuts. This is "a career move." You better be in this because you "like the action." Because you’re going to see plenty of it when this report hits the courts.
Best,
Darnay Hoffman

______________________

From Carnes' decision:

Whenever encountering any differences between the known writing of Mrs. Ramsey and the Ransom Note, Epstein finds refuge in the explanation that Mrs. Ramsey must have been trying to disguise her handwriting. While it is, of course, possible that differences between known writing and questioned documents are the result of a known writer's efforts to disguise her handwriting, it is just as plausible that the differences can occur because the known writer is not the author of the questioned matter. On that issue, Epstein offers no hint of the methodology that he employs to distinguish between disguised writing and writing that is simply being provided by two different people.

 

[Camper]

Okay Camper, let's discuss toilet seats.

Commercial toilet seats, such as at Pasta Jay's, would have open fronts (horseshoe shaped) and it would be almost impossible to transfer DNA onto the crotch of JonBenet's underwear from the toilet seat. The crotch of the underwear cannot touch the toilet seat because there's no toilet seat at that front central location.

==============>>>BlueCrab, THAT is the entire point of my belief, THERE IS AN opening at the front TO SNAG panties IF IF they are NOT pulled way down before getting on the toilet. An adult sits directly down on the throne, a tiny 6 year old squiggles to position themselves particularly when there IS AN OPENING, trust me. FACTOR in winter leggings and a tiny child NOT pulling their panties waaaaaaaaaay down, and catching the underwear/clothing on one of the pointy open ends of the seat cover!

PLUS a tiny child OFTEN puts their hands on the largest part of the toilet seat on either side of them, BECAUSE their tiny bottoms do not COVER THE ENTIRE SEAT, trust me. IF THEY do not put their hands ON THE TOILET SEAT, their tiny bottoms fall into the BOWL. Trust me, a mom of eight to know about the distinct possibility of this being a logical thought process, on how the foreign dna came to be in her panties!

PLUS little girls panties are thin in the crotch, to not think that liquid could enter from either side is to ignore an elephant in the living room.


----------------Yes this is a thread about the ransom note. Keep in mind that Patsy is an artist, which means a person is clever at making lines and creating artistic renderings. Keep also in mind that during PR's school years, that her teacher/college professor ?, told of her being so proud of BEING AMBIDEXTROUS, being talented and able to WRITE WITH BOTH HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just as WE sleuthers, do the best we know how to find root things in the evidence that WE know of. OUR fault in not being accurate is NOT BEING Privvy to ALL KNOWN evidence. Sorta like playing a piano with the base note keys removed. THE judge in the chat discussion, I am betting did NOT KNOW THAT Patsy was well known by many people to be very proficient at writing with BOTH HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder if Epstein knew this. I had every trust in him ! and POOF he was dumped, bad for JonBenet's justice.

FOR all of the coverups, the Ramsey family suffers a fate worse than death, in what has happend to THEIR reputation. They have given their all for what, a child and his future, perhaps. Will we ever know the truth?

Lacy Wood, about the girl and STD, from the toilet seat, a possibility imop.

Blue Crab, IF IF JonBenet was wearing those larger weekday panties, my theory is even stronger. She may have been wearing them more than one day, particularly if they were big girls panties and she really really wanted them, and wanted to be a big girl.



:boohoo:



.

 

[tipper]

[...]Keep also in mind that during PR's school years, that her teacher/college professor ?, told of her being so proud of BEING AMBIDEXTROUS, being talented and able to WRITE WITH BOTH HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just as WE sleuthers, do the best we know how to find root things in the evidence that WE know of. OUR fault in not being accurate is NOT BEING Privvy to ALL KNOWN evidence. Sorta like playing a piano with the base note keys removed. THE judge in the chat discussion, I am betting did NOT KNOW THAT Patsy was well known by many people to be very proficient at writing with BOTH HANDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I wonder if Epstein knew this. I had every trust in him ! and POOF he was dumped, bad for JonBenet's justice.

FOR all of the coverups, the Ramsey family suffers a fate worse than death, in what has happend to THEIR reputation. They have given their all for what, a child and his future, perhaps. Will we ever know the truth?

Lacy Wood, about the girl and STD, from the toilet seat, a possibility imop.

Blue Crab, IF IF JonBenet was wearing those larger weekday panties, my theory is even stronger. She may have been wearing them more than one day, particularly if they were big girls panties and she really really wanted them, and wanted to be a big girl.[...]
.

What is the source for Patsy being ambidextrous? I've read that she was but don't remember who said so.

Also, If JonBenet really really wanted those underpants she had 7 of them to choose from. No need to wear them more than once. Part of the fun is putting on a new pair. I don't think she'd wear previously worn ones.

 

[UKGuy]

So Patsy says...well didnt say...she said she couldnt remember if she had one on the 25th.Its christmas day, the Ramsey's are going to a friends christmas party. Surely Patsy would have got the kids bathed and dressed nicely before they went. Patsy can remember what clothes Jonbenet wore and remembers the disagreement they had about the clothes, but not whether Jonbenet had a bath.

narlacat,

Patsy does remember some details e.g.

Tom Trujillo: "Did you have to wake her up to get her inside or..?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she was just really zonked and John carried her up to her room... and, I, uh, you know, ran up behind him and, or in front of him, I can't remember. Maybe, or it might have been in front of him to turn the bed down. And he laid her down and I got her undressed and put her, I left her shirt on her and, uh, went to the bathroom and tried to find some pajama pants and all I could find was some, like long underwear pants... and put those on."

Tom Trujillo: "What color of top did she wear to bed that night. What color top was she wearing actually to the Whites' house like?

Patsy Ramsey: "Well, she wore this little outfit that I had gotten her at the Gap. We had a little, little riff over that 'cause I wanted her to wear, I was wearing a red sweater and I wanted her to wear this red sweater with her black velvet pants, 'cause I was wearing black velvet pants and it was Christmas and all that. And she didn't want to wear the red shirt just because I was wearing it. She wanted to wear the shirt that went with the outfit which was a Gap out fit that I had bought her when we went shopping for her and it was a little white, kind of neck like this.."

Tom Trujillo: "Kind of a crew neck?"

Patsy Ramsey: "...Crew neck and it had a little, little rhinestone, little kind of sequin kind of star thing on it."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "So I just left that on her."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay. And I'm sorry. What kind of pants, what color of pants...?"

Patsy Ramsey: "They were black velvet. Black velvet jeans, kind of like, from the Gap. Some little black velvet vest."

Tom Trujillo: "And what were you wearing Patsy, a, a red turtleneck and black...?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Velvet jeans, yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "Okay."

Patsy Ramsey: "Velvet pants. And I have a Christmas sweater I was wearing."

Tom Trujillo: "And what color was that?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Red with all kinds of..."

Tom Trujillo: "And that was over the turtleneck?"

Patsy Ramsey: "Yeah."

Tom Trujillo: "..When you say you wore black velvet jeans, were those like a, a, were they a jean material..?"

Patsy Ramsey: "No, they're, no, no, no. They're black velvet."

But there is no mention of wearing leggings or longjohns to the Whites, so I assume JonBenet was not wearing them. Patsy does state the longjohns were placed on her after returning home.

Patsy mentions that JonBenet was also wearing a little black velvet vest. But I do not recall JonBenet wearing a black vest in the wine-cellar, is this my faulty memory or was it under her white gap top?

The Byfield search warrant executed on the On Dec. 27, 1996 does itemize a black velvet vest (65BAB) , although I am uncertain if this is the same vest referred to by Patsy.


So along with JonBenet possibly being redressed in size-12 underwear, her black vest may have been removed?

If those size-12 pants were placed on JonBenet after she returned from the Whites, then they should not have any black velvet fibers on them? More so if they were fresh out the bloomingdales packet!

 

[tipper]

narlacat,

[...]Patsy mentions that JonBenet was also wearing a little black velvet vest. But I do not recall JonBenet wearing a black vest in the wine-cellar, is this my faulty memory or was it under her white gap top?

The Byfield search warrant executed on the On Dec. 27, 1996 does itemize a black velvet vest (65BAB) , although I am uncertain if this is the same vest referred to by Patsy.


So along with JonBenet possibly being redressed in size-12 underwear, her black vest may have been removed?

If those size-12 pants were placed on JonBenet after she returned from the Whites, then they should not have any black velvet fibers on them? More so if they were fresh out the bloomingdales packet!

UKGuy

You may be confusing what you would call a vest with what we would call an undershirt. What we call a vest you would probably call a waistcoat. Easy enough to slip off a sleeping kid.

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy

You may be confusing what you would call a vest with what we would call an undershirt. What we call a vest you would probably call a waistcoat. Easy enough to slip off a sleeping kid.

tipper,

Thanks for that, yes I assumed it was the same as an undershirt. It struck me reading her replies that between Patsy and JonBenet there were quite a few potential sources for black or dark fibers.

 

[tipper]

tipper,

Thanks for that, yes I assumed it was the same as an undershirt. It struck me reading her replies that between Patsy and JonBenet there were quite a few potential sources for black or dark fibers.

I agree about the potential sources. It would be nice to see those lab reports. I'm also curious as to whether the pants were actually velvet or a more practical velveteen.

 

[capps]

Just so we're all on the same page.
Below is the definition of "vest" according to Webster's Dictionary.

2 a : a man's sleeveless garment for the upper body usually worn under a suit coat; also : a similar garment for women b : a protective usually sleeveless garment (as a life preserver) that extends to the waist c : an insulated sleeveless waist-length garment often worn under or in place of a coat

I believe this is what PR is referring to when she says LB wore a vest.

 

[UKGuy]

Just so we're all on the same page.
Below is the definition of "vest" according to Webster's Dictionary.

2 a : a man's sleeveless garment for the upper body usually worn under a suit coat; also : a similar garment for women b : a protective usually sleeveless garment (as a life preserver) that extends to the waist c : an insulated sleeveless waist-length garment often worn under or in place of a coat

I believe this is what PR is referring to when she says LB wore a vest.

capps,

Yes seems so, I had thought it was a garment worn underneath a shirt etc, UK version, but the US version is on top of a shirt, thanks.

 

[UKGuy]

I agree about the potential sources. It would be nice to see those lab reports. I'm also curious as to whether the pants were actually velvet or a more practical velveteen.

tipper ,

I would love to see those lab reports too, it would help clear up a few issues, since fibers sourced from Patsy's or JonBenet's vest or pants can be described as dark or black. The probability is that JonBenet's pants were of the velveteen you describe or one of those simulated velvet fabrics that are popular.

I wonder if anyone else has purchased those pants at Gap, same with JonBenet's Barbie Gown , knowing a few more details or a picture would help lots.

.

 

[Camper]

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[Camper]

Having some major problems posting!!!


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[BlueCrab]

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Camper,

Can't argue with you there.

But here's something I can ague with you about: The size 12/14 panties JonBenet was wearing had to have been put on her by the killer after JonBenet was dead. Therefore, the foreign male DNA in the crotch had to be from the killer, not a toilet sat.

BlueCrab

 

[Camper]

BlueCrab, IF the killer or the writer of the note got the panties out, were the panties BEHIND the diapers that were hanging out of the closet? Were those big girl panties put behind the diapers to be used when diapers were not longer needed, no bed wetting, then you are a big girl.

WHAT random killer would know that tidbit on WHERE THE big girl panties were kept? We now have a killer who has ESP as well.

WE don't know where the BIG girl panties were kept, but my poor old thought has merit.

Now then IF IF the panties were too big, all the more reason they would/could get caught on the toilet seat.

So now two possibilities, JonBenet got them down when she and mom were having discussions about WHAT JonBenet would wear, OR mom got em down, OR the killer got em down, IF IF that was where they were kept, BEHIND the diapers, and not to be used until she was a BIG girl.


===========I am gonna try to now post my post from yesterday that never made it!!!

"

What is the source for Patsy being ambidextrous? I've read
that she was but don't remember who said so.

Also, If JonBenet really really wanted those underpants she had 7 of
them to choose from. No need to wear them more than once. Part of the
fun is putting on a new pair. I don't think she'd wear previously worn
ones.

------------->>>Yes fun would be the order of the day, unless she was
not supposed to be wearing those panties at all. My understanding was
that these panties were purchased by PR for a young relative, and that
JonBenet put up a dialogue about her wanting them for herself, and that
they were put away for the day when she would be a big girl to wear them
then.

So I will settle for black velvet pants like PR's, then the fancy white
sweater with the sequins then the black velvet vest over that, makes for
a slight conundrum when going to the bathroom, making me even more fond
of my toilet seat thoughts dna transfer etc.

NOW about the ambidextrous, I unlike others have not kept records on the
case, just my memory, my books, and my one time long subscription to the
Enquirer. I will show the link for confirmation on ambidextrous ability
for PR.

I also recall that Mrs. Pugh, recalled that PR would paint pictures in
the kitchen on a counter and Pugh and children would stand around and
watch as PR would paint with one hand and then the other. Anyone have
source for that one??


http://www.louisville.edu/~ntnguy04/bib.html
Gentile, Don and David Wright. “ JonBenet Breakthrough; Mom’s secret
uncovered.” The National Enquirer 24 Oct. 2000: 24.
The purpose of this article is to provide new information on the
JonBenet Ramsey murder. An Enquirer investigation showed that Patsy
Ramsey is ambidextrous. The article implied she wrote the ransom
letter. Enquirer reporters went to Patsy’s high school and interviewed
her teachers. The teachers said the ability to write with either hand
was one of Patsy’s talents.
Appearing next to check out lane all over America, this article appears
to target middle class America. The authors, who then turned the
information over to the police, personally developed the information in
the article.


=====

 

[Toltec]

According to Patsy...the Bloomingdales panties were kept in JonBenet's bathroom drawer.

The reason Patsy gave for the Pull-Ups being askew was that she grabbed a few while packing for the Disney trip.

BlueCrab....little girls do get their panties snagged on toilet seats. They are so small that they have to use both hands to hang onto the toilet seat lest they fall in. Given that, can you imagine all the DNA this little girl got on her hands and vaginal area? She did not bathe Christmas day so it is possible that the foreign dna could have come from the toilet at Pasta Jays.

Furthermore...JonBenet was wiped down with a dark cloth....including THE FOLDS OF THE CLITORIS!

Listen Carefully....ONLY WOMEN THINK TO CLEAN IN THAT AREA...which leads me to believe that Patsy wiped JonBenet down.

 

[Lacy Wood]

Other possible sources of foreign DNA in the panties? I understand they were oversize and had been there over a period of time. Two observations: 1. When my kids were young the girls dressed young male cousins in girls clothes (even those) and paraded them around the house. 2. Some males have a fetish about panties I hear. Any young (or older) male in the house or visiting could have looked through her drawers for a quick thrill and slipped on the larger size... and they would remain there by not cycling through the use and wash routine.