Journalistic Ransom Note

[BlueCrab]

BC, i have a question for you about Lou Smit. I know he believes that neither Patsy nor J killed JBR.

1. Has he dropped Burke & JAR from his sights as well? Has he ever made a statement about the good ol' Ramsey Boys?

2. When we say that Smit favors an intruder theory, do you think he is STILL open to the pssibility that the "intruder" may have been someone known to the family, perhaps a juvenile, perhaps working in conjunction with a member of the R household that night?

GuruJosh,

Sorry, but I don't have the answers to your questions. However, I do know that Lou Smit has not eliminated the possibility that kids were involved in this crime.

 

[Camper]

I am revisiting my pre med theory of so long ago. I really cannot believe, that it was written that night by PR, and I have been influenced by the poster here who noted how very difficult it would have been for PR to chug out that note the night of the murder, IF IF she was innocent of the crime.

It would have been difficult IF she was covering for a family member, but I do believe she could have done it.

HOWEVER, I am becoming more fond of the note having been written BEFORE the night of the murder, by someone.


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[Holdontoyourhat]

I was watching a program last night in which Clint Van Zant mentioned the JonBenet Ramsey case....the evidence destroyed so they could not solve the case.

Anyhoo...Camper...the Whites drove to Aspen to visit his mother.

HOTYH...what "scandal" are you speaking about????

I am speaking about the scandal caused by creative storytelling, as opposed to scandal caused by reporting of factual data or reasonably drawn conclusions.

Suppose you present a theory based on selective inclusion of only a few of the available facts, with the obvious exclusion of other facts. It becomes more a story and less a scenario. A scenario has to reasonably account for all known facts. I've not yet seen any one scenario that seems to take into consideration all the known case facts, or primary evidence, at once.

I would be skeptical of so-called scenarios that only include a few case facts, ignore other case facts, present fabricated ideas as though they were case facts, especially if the scenario is at the expense of a specific person or group.

 

[duffy]

Quote from Duffy's post:

My daughter almost shouted at me when she interrupted me and then she said "Don't forget Susan."

What is up with Susan any way, and that bogus e-mail?!

You didn't hear hide nor hair from her ... then six years later, after the case has some what calmed down ... she decides to pretend she is the chief of police and sends e-mails to certain people who handled the investigation in Mark Beckner's name. Also in the e-mails,showing the Ramsey's in a negative light with:" .. that BS law suit the Ramsey's had against Steve Thomas",and mocking Wood,the Ramsey lawyer.If I was the Ramsey's,I would not take too kindly to that.

And what does she have to say for herself? It was a joke,I'm a funny person." What the ...??? She thinks the investigation of her friends murdered child is a joke?? With friends like that,who needs enemies?

I wonder what the real purpose was for that?

The police did not charge her. I wonder why?

Capps, sorry if I wasn't clear enough but the Susan I was speaking of was a young woman who grew up with my youngest daughter. This Susan has been an extended part of our family since she was a young teen after leaving her adoptive parents home.

There are obviously many women who have murdered their children and Susan's mother didn't murder her but she was capable. It was just the first and closest person my daughter thought of. Does that make more sense?

I think pr could also be cunning enough to put saliva on the over-sized panties. She may not be and she may not have, but I think she could.

Dingo, I think you answered the question of the pristine shape the note was in. Wonder if they ever checked the box for gloves. I can see how it could easily get overlooked, they had so much to process as it was. They also had the added effort of a horribly contaminated crime scene.

If p.r. picked up the note from the stairs as she claimed how did she and j.r. explain that their prints were'nt on it? Anyone?

Holdontoyourhat in my estimation the "p.r. did it" theory pulls many things together. This is a thread about the ransom note so I'm trying to keep it to that.

My problem had been giving p.r. the benefit of the doubt in JonBenet's murder was an accident, not premeditated. I've changed my mind.

 

[Camper]

I believe this is my post that has HOTYH, 'bothered'. I will address each item with a blue response to my own post.


Camper]This scenario would fit the 'forgiveness' comment by JAR, so SOON after the murder.

Why would anyone forgive an unknown killer of tiny JonBenet, so SOON after the murder. Perhaps certainly it would be possible to forgive a killer AFTER they are caught and some substantial time had passed. This was a hair raising fact in my book of ODD.

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With a house that big, it would have been possible for Barnhills sighting of the person he first identified as JAR approaching the house Christmas Day, to have slipped into the home unoticed and right up the stairs to the bedroom area.

Barnhill saw whom he thought was JAR approach the Ramsey house Christmas Day. WHO was the person IF it was NOT JAR. No flap from the Ramseys wondering or using the 'detectives' to determine WHO it was. Nor did the Ramseys clarify who the 'person' was. Rather the Ramsey attorneys, 'quieted' the media with it wasn't JAR. Mr. Barnhill was not deaf dumb and blind. Did the police ask IF IF the person went into the home? This would have been a 'basic' question to have asked. WE don't know either!!!

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The up staircase is right by the front door. Is it possible that there had been another encounter by the Seuss book owner and the victim, and that PR found them yet again? WHEN would the note have been written that very day of Christmas, or BEFORE after the party of the 23rd. I am thinking Christmas day, IF IF this scenario fits the crime.

WHO came to the house Christmas Day, and where did he go?

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WE, don't know the actual truth in all matters of this case, these are opinions we offer here. Opinions are also all that the BPD and other investigators have to work with, but they do have more information to work with.

I repeat the above paragraph, in case you missed it. "
WE, don't know the actual truth in all matters of this case, these are opinions we offer here. Opinions are also all that the BPD and other investigators have to work with, but they do have more information to work with.

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Your scenario 'dufffy' works to tie in with John's statement that he had to get to Atlanta the 26th to attend to an important matter. IF IF JR had it figured out by then, on the who that wrote the note, and the murderer.

WHAT was more important than staying in BOULDER to help find the murderer of his baby? Was it an internal family matter, about sexual abuse? Was it to make sure that the entire family had the same 'story'. Alibis for JAR did not emerge until 3 months later as far as producing movie stubs for the Christmas night attendees.

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The Victory ties in (saving the little girl from further abuse), the pre med ties in, the comment in the note about good southern common sense, works for your input, imop. I am also wondering about how the two trips to the school nurse fit it, PR must have known about them, and what caused them. Adding fuel to the fire.

]S.B.T.C. and Victory, we now have a foreign faction perp who think they have a victory, over what? Were the Foreign Faction folks bible oriented, Saved By The Cross ?, what did the win ?, they did NOT get the money they asked for?? Was PR called by the school nurse about the two visits?

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It also explains their lawsuits clearing Burke. Protective of JonBenet and Burke, indicates a pattern of love for the two small children. although IF IF this scenario is correct, one of the children ended up dead.

There are all sorts of love, some good some bad. Parents are not given training in the American School System on HOW to be the best parents. Some parents are better than others, more skilled, more caring, more watchful over their children. Some people have mental problems, most don't. Lots of choices. 8.5 years later the speculation goes on.

IF IF all of the sleuthers who have devoted time, energy and caring for this tiny girl, HAD ALL of the facts, I feel certain that 'someone' would be sitting ia striped sun tan jail spa cell, by now. imop

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The judicial system quieted the one handwriting expert who was more than qualified to prove and did prove that PR wrote the ransom note. Now why would that have happened? Perhaps a judge that was ignorant about HOW that ransom 'letter' would have helped solve this case. Perhaps that judge was not schooled in the art of 'sleuthery'. Another thread for that, in fact Tricia has one on this forum about that.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Primary evidence:

1. Ransom note.
2. Ransom note content.
3. Ransom note terminology or linguistics.
4. Ransom note handwriting.
5. Ransom note writing pen.
6. JBR.
7. JBR head trauma.
8. JBR ligature marks on neck
9. JBR ligature marks on wrist
10. Garrote
11. Broken paintbrush
12. cord
13. 911 call
14. No 911 from neighbors during the night (no disturbances).

Primary evidence used in your scenario:

1. Ransom note
2. Ransom note handwriting
3. JBR

In your scenario, the rest of the primary evidence becomes incidental, and leaves many questions, like what does SBTC stand for? Why include it in the note? Why the closing salutation "Victory!"? Why break a paintbrush instead of using a household item? Why not wait until later to call 911? Why call 911 at all? Why strangle AND headbash JBR?

In your scenario, it seems to me the parents would wait hours and hours and not call the police, and use the RN as an excuse for not calling. The fact is the 911 call was made, it was made early in the AM, it was made contrary to the RN instructions, and it alerted police to a kidnapping.

These so-called "cunning" perps of yours are going to ask for the FBI?!? How cunning is that?

 

[Camper]

I Camper will respond in red to HOTYH quoted post below.



Holdontoyourhat, Primary evidence used in your scenario:

1. Ransom note
2. Ransom note handwriting
3. JBR

This is not my scenario these items are primarily my thread topic.

In your scenario, the rest of the primary evidence becomes incidental, and leaves many questions, like what does SBTC stand for? Why include it in the note? Why the closing salutation "Victory!"? Why break a paintbrush instead of using a household item? Why not wait until later to call 911? Why call 911 at all? Why strangle AND headbash JBR?

I explained this in blue in the preceding post. Going with duffy's scenario about a mother killing the child. Paintbrush was handy, and perhaps the garote was made a long time ago, maybe not. WE donut know how she was strangled for certain or what was actually used to strangle her. Headbash could have been emotional frustration about ending the childs life, or a Victorious crazy action by a totally out of control person. Guess you would have to ask the person who did the crime the WHY of WHY they did the head bashing.

In your scenario, it seems to me the parents would wait hours and hours and not call the police, and use the RN as an excuse for not calling. The fact is the 911 call was made, it was made early in the AM, it was made contrary to the RN instructions, and it alerted police to a kidnapping.

Welllll, it wasn't a kidnapping either, confusion reigns. The entire crime makes no sense, the note, the murder, the non kidnapping.

These so-called "cunning" perps of yours are going to ask for the FBI?!? How cunning is that?

I don't know where you came up with me saying anything remotely like that. Enlighten me please. Certainly IF IF it was a cunning perp, JR being a CEO of a very large company, any CEO is surmised to be a very intelligent and with it person, so imop

a. He should have made the call himself to BPD.
b. Or better yet, he should have called the FBI directly, why deal with the middle man BPD?

I am gonna be gone for the rest of the day doing my own life stuff. So carry on, will check back later. Feel free to jump in guys.



.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

In your scenario, "cunning" perps call the BPD early to report a kidnapping. Why would "cunning" perps report a kidnapping knowing it will cause a response from BPD and FBI?

I don't believe that having multiple LE agencies descending on the crime scene early could ever be at the perps request, its just not in the perps interest to do so. For that reason, this scenario is not believable.

 

[Camper]

In your scenario, "cunning" perps call the BPD early to report a kidnapping. Why would "cunning" perps report a kidnapping knowing it will cause a response from BPD and FBI?

I don't believe that having multiple LE agencies descending on the crime scene early could ever be at the perps request, its just not in the perps interest to do so. For that reason, this scenario is not believable.

end of HOTYH
======================================================



----------------->>>Holdontoyourhat, I would request that you post the exact post with the number of the post, where I came to the conclusions that you present as 'mine', in the quote above.

I would not consider the Ramseys collectively cunning, but more devious. An innocent CEO would have called the FBI directly and explained the note to them in FULL, to PROTECT his baby, imop.





Also for the NEW people to WS, the FBI did come to the Ramsey house the morning of the 26th, while the BPD were there. The FBI told the BPD - LOOK at the family.

 

[Lacy Wood]

Camper, You are one of the most pleasant and interesting voices around here. As I have pointed out before, unowho has theories about one step better than intergalactic serial killers. It's something of an vindication of one's thinking when he goes after you, so don't let it bug you.

 

[Camper]

Camper, You are one of the most pleasant and interesting voices around here. As I have pointed out before, unowho has theories about one step better than intergalactic serial killers. It's something of an vindication of one's thinking when he goes after you, so don't let it bug you.

-------------->>>Thank you, I love clear thinkers.

Interpretive reading skills are a lost art. We have become a visual society, with retangular eye balls from watching and watching too much TV.

I have a very large hat pin that serves me well. Hee Hee.


.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

end of HOTYH
======================================================



----------------->>>Holdontoyourhat, I would request that you post the exact post with the number of the post, where I came to the conclusions that you present as 'mine', in the quote above.

I would not consider the Ramseys collectively cunning, but more devious. An innocent CEO would have called the FBI directly and explained the note to them in FULL, to PROTECT his baby, imop.





Also for the NEW people to WS, the FBI did come to the Ramsey house the morning of the 26th, while the BPD were there. The FBI told the BPD - LOOK at the family.

I'm sorry camper, I think I got your ideas mixed up with duffy's in the post where you comingled/shuffled your ideas with duffy's.

Anyway, IMO the killers of JBR would not call LE and report a kidnapping early in the AM, as this would invite an onslaught of multiple LE agencies. It is too unrealistic to be believable.

Its like bank robbers calling the police to report they just robbed the bank. Nopey nope.
:hand:

 

[duffy]

I would like to jump in on this.

Primary evidence:

1. Ransom note. -found on the stair case which was typically only used by p.r.
2. Ransom note content. -some of the no-typical words in the rn had been found in other writings of p.r.
3. Ransom note terminology or linguistics. -see above. I believe one of the similarities in the r.n. and patsy's typical way of talking was "Don't grow a brain John".
4. Ransom note handwriting. -p.r. could not be ruled out as the writer.
5. Ransom note writing pen. -pen and paper used was from the ramsey home from what I have understood
6. JBR. -ummmm. dead
7. JBR head trauma. -not much blood. I forget what they believed was the instrument but it was from the house
8. JBR ligature marks on neck
9. JBR ligature marks on wrist
10. Garrote
11. Broken paintbrush -patsy ramseys paint brush
12. cord
13. 911 call -patsy calls the police even though specifically instructed not to by the rn. Not only was the rn ignored in this but calling "others" too. I agree with Camper in that a CEO of a major corporation would have known to call the FBI not the Boulder Police. i.e. "Operator, please get me the FBI, this is an emergency."

1. No 911 from neighbors during the night (no disturbances). If the neighbors didn't hear anything, they didn't hear anything.

Primary evidence used in your scenario:

1. Ransom note
2. Ransom note handwriting
3. JBR

In your scenario, the rest of the primary evidence becomes incidental, and leaves many questions, like what does SBTC stand for? Why include it in the note? Why the closing salutation "Victory!"? Why break a paintbrush instead of using a household item? Why not wait until later to call 911? Why call 911 at all? Why strangle AND headbash JBR?

In your scenario, it seems to me the parents would wait hours and hours and not call the police, and use the RN as an excuse for not calling. The fact is the 911 call was made, it was made early in the AM, it was made contrary to the RN instructions, and it alerted police to a kidnapping.

These so-called "cunning" perps of yours are going to ask for the FBI?!? How cunning is that?

This is a "ransom note thread" but to address the issue of ignoring primary evidence. I'm sure I won't think of everything but will list a few things which I believe are very incriminating to the ramsey's.

j.r. going directly downstairs where he discovered the murdered JonBenet.

calling the pilot to leave Boulder immediately. You find your young daughter brutally murdered and the first person you call is your pilot to get the hell out of dodge, citing fear of safety? Yet Burke went with family friends, out of the sight of his mother and father. I would think you would call your closest family members, the older kids, patsy's mother, father & siblings. I would also think you would not let your remaining child out of your sight or a tight embrace.

The following day of the discovered murder you lawyer up for the next 4 months? I have said before, if j.r. felt he needed legal representation to help in interviews with the police, you couldn't fault him for that. To use a lawyer to avoid being questioned by the police? WTH? As a parent wouldn't you be at the police station doorsteps asking 5 bazillion questions? Who? Why? Even if you felt you needed to bring your legal rep with you. Why wouldn't j.r. attorney urge j.r. to talk with police if there wasn't something to cover up?

Not only was JonBenet sexually assaulted with the paint brush, it was patsy's paintbrush and I believe the reason being was to cover up the prior molestation. It just didn't work.

The ramsey's were coached on what to say to the alleged kidnappers/murderers in their television interview. I forget who they had the interview with and I also forget who coached them. I'm thinking John Douglas, former FBI profiler. I still didn't find patsy credible at all. John Douglas has since clarified his relationship with the ramsey's in that he didn't believe j.r. was the murderer of JonBenet. He didn't say patsy did but he made the clarification when ask directly why he would support patsy. He wouldn't damn patsy but he also let it be known that specifically he didn't believe j.r. was the murderer.

I don't want to take up the next few pages of the thread so I will let this suffice for now.

p.s. HOTYH if nothing makes any difference in your opinion please just say so because I won't waiste my time. Forum's are for discussions, sometimes debate but not arguing for the sake of arguing or challenging just to be challenging. Know what I mean?

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Also for the NEW people to WS, the FBI did come to the Ramsey house the morning of the 26th, while the BPD were there. The FBI told the BPD - LOOK at the family.

Hey maybe that's why they immediately "lawyered up." I would've lawyered up too!

 

[Camper]

Hey maybe that's why they immediately "lawyered up." I would've lawyered up too!

--------------------->>>I feel certain that the 'Ramseys' were not told about WHAT the FBI told BPD.


There is something I am really interested in about the way the Dutch Government is handling the Natalee - Aruba case. The PD can hold suspects for up to six months, and quiz them mightily for six hours straight daily.

IF we had THAT law, and had taken custody of the Ramseys the morning of the 26th, we just might have one of em sitting in prison, counting defects in the cement walls.




.

 

[duffy]

Camper, I saw on Fox the Aruba l.e. can interrogate a suspect up to 14 hours a day, this after they questioned the one boy for 11 hours.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

--------------------->>>I feel certain that the 'Ramseys' were not told about WHAT the FBI told BPD.


.

Welllll I donut know who your source is, but the 'Ramseys' didn't have to be 'told' anything. All it would take is a suspicious look from BPD to send them scrambling for attorneys.

 

[Camper]

I would like to hear your personal thinking on WHY JR, furnished attornies for HIS family in Georgia?

Looks from police officers don't cut it for me.



Yep duffy, IF IF we and our 'justice system' had not eliminated the poor suspect from sitting under a bare light bulb in a hard chair for loooooooooong periods of time, being asked 'pertinent' questions about the crime, for the dead victim, we could most likely have a convicted person sitting in a cell, staring at defects in the cement walls too.

 

[tipper]

Yep duffy, IF IF we and our 'justice system' had not eliminated the poor suspect from sitting under a bare light bulb in a hard chair for loooooooooong periods of time, being asked 'pertinent' questions about the crime, for the dead victim, we could most likely have a convicted person sitting in a cell, staring at defects in the cement walls too.

Like Kevon Fox and Michael Crowe?

 

[Camper]

Not necessarily but it certainly 'seems' like the Dutch thingie may be working, and they treat their suspects quite well, it 'appears', time will tell.

The Dutch LAW 'seems' to work ok dokey with the suspects attorney. I am watching this Aruba case carefully.

Wonder what sort of food Aruba PD gives to the suspects, certainly not five star meals?

I admire their law so far, in that the suspects do not have the immediate priviledge of hiding behind their lawyers skirts/pants AND not having to say anything whatsoever to LE.

I am learning something NEW that I never knew before.

Tipper I suspect you are waaaaaaaaaay younger than I, but in the olde days of movie making, LE would slap the suspect around quite heartily, and intimidate vociferously, and literally slap a confession out of em.

I have said many times, that IF IF our LE allowed the Victims spouse/parents/siblings into the room where the suspect is being questioned, AND enable them to ask questions at a safe distance, we might unearth more information instantly than it takes LE weeks of time to 'discover'.


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