Juggalo Thread

[KelliH]

Juggalos are simply devoted fans of the Insane Clown Posse. You can equate them to Deadheads in many ways. I've liked and listened to ICP since the 1990's. I find their music to be more humorous or fantastical as opposed to advocating violence. Yes there are some violent crimes committed by "Juggalos" just as there are violent crimes committed by groups of friends that are all rap music fans or Deadheads or sport team fans not to mention people in just about every walk of life and every social class, including McMansion living soccor moms from Suburbia and of course Christians.

In my opinion the FBI needs to open their minds (along with a lot of other folks!) and spend more time and money investigating pedophiles and other sex offenders than fans of a white hiphop group. Peace.

 

[katydid23]

While I remain firmly perched on the fence about what happened to Lisa, and would love there to be some nefarious group of neighborhood juggalos to blame so that I could more easily justify my stance regarding DB, I find the "juggalos took the baby" idea way too far fetched to hitch my wagon to.

I have a nephew who firmly identifies as a juggalo and is a non murderous, non criminal non,kidnapping type of dude. The little I know about juggalo culture is from him. From what he tells me, there is a small number of juggalos who are very criminal in their mndset and probably would be whether they identified as juggalos or not.

ETA this doesn't mean I discount any possible juggalo in the neighborhood as involved in some fashion, simply that I do not subscribe to the theory that rage, drug and ICP fueled individuals kidnapped a baby simply to feed some sick, twisted bloodlust. I hope that makes sense.

I am not saying that jugallos took the baby. But I am saying that there have been several very high profile crimes done by rage filled juggalos, including the senseless murder of little Elizabeth Olten. And many of the missing persons cases seem to have suspects that are ICP fans as well. I just think it is noteworthy.

And the only reason that it seems interesting in this case is that originally, people have said, what kind of maniac breaks into a house, turns on the lights and takes a baby, then walks around in the woods setting fires and carries the baby around all night? The answer could well be someone who is crazy like a juggalo. imo I am not saying it is THEE answer. Just saying it is still a possible one. imo

ps. I KNOW that 98% of ICP fans are just regular normal kids. Not maniacs or killers. It is that remaining 2% that I aqm wondering about.

 

[highflyer]

Juggalos are simply devoted fans of the Insane Clown Posse. You can equate them to Deadheads in many ways. I've liked and listened to ICP since the 1990's. I find their music to be more humorous or fantastical as opposed to advocating violence. Yes there are some violent crimes committed by "Juggalos" just as there are violent crimes committed by groups of friends that are all rap music fans or Deadheads or sport team fans not to mention people in just about every walk of life and every social class, including McMansion living soccor moms from Suburbia and of course Christians.

In my opinion the FBI needs to open their minds (along with a lot of other folks!) and spend more time and money investigating pedophiles and other sex offenders than fans of a white hiphop group. Peace.

I think that the FBI probably has a good idea on what they need and do not need to investigate.

 

[katydid23]

Juggalos are simply devoted fans of the Insane Clown Posse. You can equate them to Deadheads in many ways. I've liked and listened to ICP since the 1990's. I find their music to be more humorous or fantastical as opposed to advocating violence. Yes there are some violent crimes committed by "Juggalos" just as there are violent crimes committed by groups of friends that are all rap music fans or Deadheads or sport team fans not to mention people in just about every walk of life and every social class, including McMansion living soccor moms from Suburbia and of course Christians.

In my opinion the FBI needs to open their minds (along with a lot of other folks!) and spend more time and money investigating pedophiles and other sex offenders than fans of a white hiphop group. Peace.

I was one of the original Deadheads. I grew up in the Bay area during the 60's and 70's/ I have been to hundreds of Dead shows over the years. They NEVER sang about smashing open a child's head and laughing while his brains turns to mush. NEVER, ever.
The Dead sang about PEACE/LOVE/REBELLION. Not about hatchetting victims to death. Jerry Garcia was a Buddha, not a glorified serial killer.

There were a lot of Deadhead's who got themselves arrested for crimes. As you say, it happens in every group. But violence for the LOVE OF VIOLENCE, that is a juggalo thing. And it concerns my dear old Hippie Heart..

 

[vlpate]

[/B]
Yes, I read that. It was just a thing of interest with people being brought up in the case tied to this group. Why does this particular bit of information seem to concern you so?

I'm not losing sleep over it, but I don't think any group of people who choose a certain style of music should be labeled as violent offenders who might be capable of abducting a child. I'm also entitled to discuss the options and try to reach a more solid theory than the one I have now. If abducting babies was part of the Juggalo MO,, and they were known to be prominent in Missouri, I might give the possibility that a Juggalo was responsible more weight - as it stands, anything is possible, but not probabable in this case, IMO.

 

[vlpate]

I was one of the original Deadheads. I grew up in the Bay area during the 60's and 70's/ I have been to hundreds of Dead shows over the years. They NEVER sang about smashing open a child's head and laughing while his brains turns to mush. NEVER, ever.
The Dead sang about PEACE/LOVE/REBELLION. Not about hatchetting victims to death. Jerry Garcia was a Buddha, not a glorified serial killer.

There were a lot of Deadhead's who got themselves arrested for crimes. As you say, it happens in every group. But violence for the LOVE OF VIOLENCE, that is a juggalo thing. And it concerns my dear old Hippie Heart..

I agree, but there is violence in all genre of music. Have you listened to Miranda Lambert? Rap? Heavy Metal? Marylin Manson, Cake and Sodomy... the worst. Manson probably has just as many, if not more, fans than ICP.

So, let's list the case players or criminals in the neighborhood who listen to any of the above, or the worst of the worst, Eminem - "Hey Slim, that's my girlfriend screamin in the trunk but I didn't slit her throat, I just tied her up, see I ain't like you cause if she suffocates she'll suffer more, and then she'll die too".

If they listen to violent lyrics, if they own CD's or have downloaded violent tunes, should we look more closely at them?

 

[highflyer]

The only kind of unusual group that I had really any contact with was some Goth kids. They would hang outside of Barnes and Noble because the bookstore kicked them out as they had been using it for a hangout. I felt bad for them. They were reading poetry and being glum mostly. I had always smiled and said hi when I was going in and they were always pleasant back and one night a sweet but frightful looking little girl asked if I would be her Mom and walk her back to the bathroom. Surely did not want her walking across the parking lot to find another restroom at night so I said sure. Remember taking them some water outside too one time when it was way too hot and this boy looked like he was about to pass out. That is my one tale of some people who looked a lot different but turned out to be very nice. I'm quite sure that a lot of the Juggalos are very nice people too but if the FBI thinks that Juggalos are a threat, then there surely must be something to it.

 

[vlpate]

The only kind of unusual group that I had really any contact with was some Goth kids. They would hang outside of Barnes and Noble because the bookstore kicked them out as they had been using it for a hangout. I felt bad for them. They were reading poetry and being glum mostly. I had always smiled and said hi when I was going in and they were always pleasant back and one night a sweet but frightful looking little girl asked if I would be her Mom and walk her back to the bathroom. Surely did not want her walking across the parking lot to find another restroom at night so I said sure. Remember taking them some water outside too one time when it was way too hot and this boy looked like he was about to pass out. That is my one tale of some people who looked a lot different but turned out to be very nice. I'm quite sure that a lot of the Juggalos are very nice people too but if the FBI thinks that Juggalos are a threat, then there surely must be something to it.

"Gangs, or organized criminal enterprises, are defined by the FBI as “any group having some manner of a formalized structure and whose primary objective is to obtain money through illegal activities” (taken from the organized crime glossary found on the FBI website).

So, how would a Juggalo gang profit from two dead cell phones, one broken one, and a 10 month old baby.

Goths, by the way, are fascinated with death, just saying

 

[wfgodot]

Not an ICP fan at all, but the Beatles, it will be recalled, had a sort of wildness (e.g. this) to them at one time, and, at least according to Vincent Bugliosi's book "Helter Skelter," were the (unwitting) triggers to some of the (Charles) Manson killings. Yes, the Posse (et al., black metal, death metal, etc. etc.) lyrics bother me, too, but I've not seen real evidence of Juggalo involvement in terms of what could have happened to baby Lisa - or of a steady and dramatic increase of rapine and pillage attributable to them in the culture at large. Interesting topic though, good thread.

 

[highflyer]

"Gangs, or organized criminal enterprises, are defined by the FBI as “any group having some manner of a formalized structure and whose primary objective is to obtain money through illegal activities” (taken from the organized crime glossary found on the FBI website).

So, how would a Juggalo gang profit from two dead cell phones, one broken one, and a 10 month old baby.

Goths, by the way, are fascinated with death, just saying

Yes, the poetry readings were very dark and depressing.

 

[Jacie Estes]

His history of what? Breaking into houses? He's never been arrested or charged with breaking into houses. He went into the window of a house that he knew well. He did odd jobs for the man who owned it. Unless we've been hoodwinked, he had never been into the Irwin home nor was he ever hired to do odd jobs there.

On the one hand it is stated that Lisa was always in the front yard, as if this would prompt him to take her, but then you have to ask yourself, why? What would a homeless man want with a 10 month old baby? I could see him taking one of the older boys, if he were a pedophile, but not Lisa.

Jersey does not fit the profile of an infant abductor, IMO.

He has a history of being a squatter; he is comfortable going into places that he does not own or rent. Remember the afternoon spent watching LE go into a well and then tearing a house apart? jersey is not someone who one would invite over for coffee, he is a street . He went from looking like Ratso Rizzo to shaving his head.

It would not be about pedophilia; he is an anti-social cretin who is right now where he belongs, in jail.

jersey is a confirmed criminal yet some wish to dismiss him as a suspect. Deborah and Jeremy have no criminal history and yet they are presumed not just the suspects but the perpetrators?

 

[Jacie Estes]

"Gangs, or organized criminal enterprises, are defined by the FBI as “any group having some manner of a formalized structure and whose primary objective is to obtain money through illegal activities” (taken from the organized crime glossary found on the FBI website).

So, how would a Juggalo gang profit from two dead cell phones, one broken one, and a 10 month old baby.

Goths, by the way, are fascinated with death, just saying

It is not just about 'profit' but sometimes crime is commited just for the thrill factor or the eff u factor. Conventional thinking and alternative life styles don't mesh.

There is no tutto de capo of the juggalos; it is a 'movement' or 'lifestyle' that has a criminal element. Watch American Juggalo. NOT PG-13. lol

 

[Sherbie]

At present, the only thing linking Jersey to the periphery of this case is that an ex-girlfriend's number allegedly showed up on the records for one of the DB phones. It sounds like a lot of people may have used MW's phones/had her number. I can't just assume it must have been Jersey who dialed the number or even that it was MW that someone was trying to reach.

IIRC, the husband/wife sightings described a tall, slender, balding man...and MT identified someone else altogether as the man he saw. The so-called "white blob" video is unidentifiable and useless. IMO, based just on what we know, I don't believe there was any credible sighting of Jersey that night. Also, didn't he have a hurt knee (maybe hit/bumped by a car)? That's a lot of walking around to do, carrying 30 lbs of extra weight on an injured knee.

1. Do we even know that Jersey IS a Juggalo? As far as I'm aware, we know only that Megan is a Juggalette. I feel like we're putting the cart in front of the horse a little bit to assume that Jersey must be one, too...and then making an even bigger leap to think he might be one of the gang-type, babykiller-lyrics-loving, violence-craving Juggalos.
2. If he is a Juggalo, to what extent is he entrenched in that lifestyle? Are most of his associations with Juggalos?
3. Do we know whether Jersey has ever mentioned kidnapping or selling/harming a baby or whether he's ever seemed to covet someone's infant?
4. Has Jersey ever been convicted of any crimes involving children? Any crimes involving kidnapping? Armed robbery? Home invasion? Carjacking?
5. Has he ever been arrested/convicted for breaking into any homes when the occupants were there?
6. Has he been involved in instances of violence, and if so, were they bar-type brawls/fights among the crowd he runs with or were there attacks against innocent third parties?
7. Has there ever been any connection between Jersey and this family (immediate or extended)? If so, is there some reason he might hold a grudge against the family? Is there a drug connection? A failure to pay? Does he think they turned him in to LE for some other incident?

Absent any evidence whatsoever linking him to this crime (at least that we've been made aware of), those are some of the things I'd like to know before I can seriously consider Jersey a suspect in this case. He is a shady guy, no doubt, and just about anything in this world is possible...but it's a HUGE leap, IMO, to go from an arson conviction, stealing and selling stuff - being a criminal miscreant in general - to kidnapping an infant from her crib, inside her own home.

It's especially risky while the mother and two other children lay sleeping a few yards away. Even if he knew JI wasn't home, how would he know DB wouldn't wake up and fill him full of lead, call 911 from some other phone in the house, or at least catch him in the act and make a getaway extremely difficult if not impossible?

All the above are why I'm hesitant to go down the Jersey-did-it path. On the other hand, while DB certainly doesn't have a criminal record like Jersey does, I have concerns about her. Among them, she was in charge of Lisa's care and we know for a fact she was in the home that night; she may have been impaired to the point she doesn't even know what she did or what happened; she's made some troubling and inconsistent statements; she will not talk individually to LE even with her lawyer present. These are very valid concerns, IMO.

I'd have to make a lot of leaps to put Jersey in the house, and even more to have him taking Lisa. I don't have to make any leaps at all to put DB there. I don't have to make leaps to know she's made inconsistent statements and has not since the earliest days talked to LE individually, even though her lawyer was also invited to accompany her. That doesn't necessarily mean she is guilty of anything. It's just why I have far more reason to be concerned about her as a POI at present than Jersey.

I'm not by ANY means defending the character of Jersey. And if it turns out he can be linked to the attempted MW phone call, or if answers to some of the questions above are in the affirmative, my opinion about his possible involvement would change in a hurry. I understand that others see him as a very good suspect, and that's fine. But I think if next to nothing can tie him to it, then there are others with way more than next-to-nothing ties who have to be at least as equally suspected based on the limited info we've been able to glean thus far.

Sorry for the super-long post. My cats helped. :crazy:

:cat:

 

[vlpate]

He has a history of being a squatter; he is comfortable going into places that he does not own or rent. Remember the afternoon spent watching LE go into a well and then tearing a house apart? jersey is not someone who one would invite over for coffee, he is a street . He went from looking like Ratso Rizzo to shaving his head.

It would not be about pedophilia; he is an anti-social cretin who is right now where he belongs, in jail.

jersey is a confirmed criminal yet some wish to dismiss him as a suspect. Deborah and Jeremy have no criminal history and yet they are presumed not just the suspects but the perpetrators?

There has never been a case of a drifter, arsonist, car thief, stealing an infant from a house he's never been into and from people he doesn't know.

Parents, on the other hand, have killed their children and then called in an abduction many times - 1,500 parents kill their children every year. How many Juggalo drifters kill their infants every year?

As I've said countless times, anything is possible, just trying to figure out why Jersey would do this, and I've yet to hear a viable reason. Saying he fits the profile won't fly - because he doesn't, nor do Juggalo gangs. There would have to be a reason this criminal, with no sexual offenses, would do this.

 

[hambirg]

There has never been a case of a drifter, arsonist, car thief, stealing an infant from a house he's never been into and from people he doesn't know.

Parents, on the other hand, have killed their children and then called in an abduction many times - 1,500 parents kill their children every year. How many Juggalo drifters kill their infants every year?

As I've said countless times, anything is possible, just trying to figure out why Jersey would do this, and I've yet to hear a viable reason. Saying he fits the profile won't fly - because he doesn't, nor do Juggalo gangs. There would have to be a reason this criminal, with no sexual offenses, would do this.

JMHO. . .Jersey is NOT down with the clown. He was born in 1969. He's 42. He's from New Jersey. He's much more likely to be a AC/DC/Metallica/Bon Jovi fan than a fan of ICP.

He probably hates ICP like most people over 40 do. :lol:

ETA-Sherbie :tyou: Great post!

 

[vlpate]

At present, the only thing linking Jersey to the periphery of this case is that an ex-girlfriend's number allegedly showed up on the records for one of the DB phones. It sounds like a lot of people may have used MW's phones/had her number. I can't just assume it must have been Jersey who dialed the number or even that it was MW that someone was trying to reach.

IIRC, the husband/wife sightings described a tall, slender, balding man...and MT identified someone else altogether as the man he saw. The so-called "white blob" video is unidentifiable and useless. IMO, based just on what we know, I don't believe there was any credible sighting of Jersey that night. Also, didn't he have a hurt knee (maybe hit/bumped by a car)? That's a lot of walking around to do, carrying 30 lbs of extra weight on an injured knee.

1. Do we even know that Jersey IS a Juggalo? As far as I'm aware, we know only that Megan is a Juggalette. I feel like we're putting the cart in front of the horse a little bit to assume that Jersey must be one, too...and then making an even bigger leap to think he might be one of the gang-type, babykiller-lyrics-loving, violence-craving Juggalos.
2. If he is a Juggalo, to what extent is he entrenched in that lifestyle? Are most of his associations with Juggalos?
3. Do we know whether Jersey has ever mentioned kidnapping or selling/harming a baby or whether he's ever seemed to covet someone's infant?
4. Has Jersey ever been convicted of any crimes involving children? Any crimes involving kidnapping? Armed robbery? Home invasion? Carjacking?
5. Has he ever been arrested/convicted for breaking into any homes when the occupants were there?
6. Has he been involved in instances of violence, and if so, were they bar-type brawls/fights among the crowd he runs with or were there attacks against innocent third parties?
7. Has there ever been any connection between Jersey and this family (immediate or extended)? If so, is there some reason he might hold a grudge against the family? Is there a drug connection? A failure to pay? Does he think they turned him in to LE for some other incident?

Absent any evidence whatsoever linking him to this crime (at least that we've been made aware of), those are some of the things I'd like to know before I can seriously consider Jersey a suspect in this case. He is a shady guy, no doubt, and just about anything in this world is possible...but it's a HUGE leap, IMO, to go from an arson conviction, stealing and selling stuff - being a criminal miscreant in general - to kidnapping an infant from her crib, inside her own home.

It's especially risky while the mother and two other children lay sleeping a few yards away. Even if he knew JI wasn't home, how would he know DB wouldn't wake up and fill him full of lead, call 911 from some other phone in the house, or at least catch him in the act and make a getaway extremely difficult if not impossible?

All the above are why I'm hesitant to go down the Jersey-did-it path. On the other hand, while DB certainly doesn't have a criminal record like Jersey does, I have concerns about her. Among them, she was in charge of Lisa's care and we know for a fact she was in the home that night; she may have been impaired to the point she doesn't even know what she did or what happened; she's made some troubling and inconsistent statements; she will not talk individually to LE even with her lawyer present. These are very valid concerns, IMO.

I'd have to make a lot of leaps to put Jersey in the house, and even more to have him taking Lisa. I don't have to make any leaps at all to put DB there. I don't have to make leaps to know she's made inconsistent statements and has not since the earliest days talked to LE individually, even though her lawyer was also invited to accompany her. That doesn't necessarily mean she is guilty of anything. It's just why I have far more reason to be concerned about her as a POI at present than Jersey.

I'm not by ANY means defending the character of Jersey. And if it turns out he can be linked to the attempted MW phone call, or if answers to some of the questions above are in the affirmative, my opinion about his possible involvement would change in a hurry. I understand that others see him as a very good suspect, and that's fine. But I think if next to nothing can tie him to it, then there are others with way more than next-to-nothing ties who have to be at least as equally suspected based on the limited info we've been able to glean thus far.

Sorry for the super-long post. My cats helped. :crazy:

:cat:

Jesus Sherbie, I had to go out on the stoop and have a ciggy after that post!

Seriously - excellent post, IMO, and not just because I agree with virtually all of it. Your questions are valid, and like you, I will throw a leg over :fence: if Jersey is in any way connected to the MW phone call.

 

[vlpate]

JMHO. . .Jersey is NOT down with the clown. He was born in 1969. He's 42. He's from New Jersey. He's much more likely to be a AC/DC/Metallica/Bon Jovi fan than a fan of ICP.

He probably hates ICP like most people over 40 do. :lol:

My sister is his age and is still stuck on David Lee Roth - although I don't see him inspiring violence, unless, of course, he tries to wear those skin tight leotards at this point in time :help:

 

[wfgodot]

I think Jersey's pretty much an "any port in a storm" candidate for anyone who believes the child did not disappear because of actions traceable to those who lived in the home. Still - there he is, at least his name is known (as are some of his attributes), he can be traced to the specific neighborhood, and theories must have a locus. As for Jersey-as-Juggalo....um, can't see it, me. Agreeing with hambirg above on that.

 

[highflyer]

When did Jersey become a Juggalo? The only Juggalos that are known are MW and DG unless someone has a link.

 

[Sherbie]

Jesus Sherbie, I had to go out on the stoop and have a ciggy after that post!

Seriously - excellent post, IMO, and not just because I agree with virtually all of it. Your questions are valid, and like you, I will throw a leg over :fence: if Jersey is in any way connected to the MW phone call.

Thanks. I think I actually should've put that post on the MW/Jersey thread since it ended up being more about Jersey in general than his potentially being a Juggalo. Should I delete it here and move it to the other thread?