Just a theory about JBR case

[cenazoic]

Because the DA was intimidated by John Ramsey's money and by his connections.

I dunno. I’ve accepted this as a truism as well, but seeing it this morning hit me in a different way.

But how wealthy was he, really? Do we know? A millionaire certainly, but I’m curious now about whether the Ramseys were actually in good financial shape or perhaps somewhat overleveraged, due to things like Patsy’s cancer treatments, JonBenet’s pageant activities, the overall appearance (from the house pictures) of people (or just Patsy) who buy lots of stuff, maybe a bit compulsively.

At any rate, I did a (tiny) bit of research into ‘millionaire murderers’ , and there’s actually quite a few, so I’m not sure how much credence I give the ‘DA was intimidated’ theory anymore. It could very well be he just thought he didn’t have enough of a case. Even those of us here, with the amount of evidence out in public (although not all, presumably) - even we can come up with reasonable arguments against our own pet theories, using known evidence. It’s a real pickle.

Here’s some examples:

Cullen Davis - tried for murdering his 12-year old stepdaughter. Despite overwhelming evidence of guilt, he had probably the best criminal defense attorney in Texas and was acquitted. Net worth: $100 million+.

Robert Durst - serial killer. Net worth: 100M+

Phil Spector - 50M.

Menendez brothers - 15M.

Other millionaires/or from very wealthy families accused of murder:

Michael Skakel
OJ Simpson
Robert Pickton (apparently a millionaire!)
Leopold and Loeb
Harold Landry
Joran van der Sloot
HH Holmes

And I’m sure many others less well-known.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

IMO there were / are potentially at least five elements of a possible crime(s) relating to the death of JBR. And they might not necessarily be in the following given order:

1) Some event or occurrence that resulted in the wound to JBR head;
2) an event or occurrence that resulted in the two-pronged mark or wound on JBR back;
3) events that resulted in the garrote being placed around JBR neck;
4) preparation of the ‘ransom note’
5) possible elements of staging the residence including placement of JBR in the basement, placing a blanket, and placing and removing tape on the body IIRC.

And if one believes the so-called ‘intruder’ theory the above becomes six elements; with 6) events regarding breaking and entering the residence.

Until there is either court-presented evidence of the above or a better publicly presented analysis of these events believed to have occurred and supported with evidence, there is IMO nothing more that needs be discussed or debated in this miscarriage of justice. Four people entered the residence that evening or early morning and only three remained the next morning. MOO

 

[tezi]

IMO there were / are potentially at least five elements of a possible crime(s) relating to the death of JBR. And they might not necessarily be in the following given order:

1) Some event or occurrence that resulted in the wound to JBR head;
2) an event or occurrence that resulted in the two-pronged mark or wound on JBR back;
3) events that resulted in the garrote being placed around JBR neck;
4) preparation of the ‘ransom note’
5) possible elements of staging the residence including placement of JBR in the basement, placing a blanket, and placing and removing tape on the body IIRC.

And if one believes the so-called ‘intruder’ theory the above becomes six elements; with 6) events regarding breaking and entering the residence.

Until there is either court-presented evidence of the above or a better publicly presented analysis of these events believed to have occurred and supported with evidence, there is IMO nothing more that needs be discussed or debated in this miscarriage of justice. Four people entered the residence that evening or early morning and only three remained the next morning. MOO

RBBM: EXACTLY!!!!

 

[Ponytale]

@Ponytale, you're suggesting the R's would lie about evidence that would provide innocent explanations for the fiber transfer? Why would they do that?

No, not at all. I'm just pointing out that Patsy and John are both known for changing their previous stories and statements, for not recalling or forgetting about things and even for lying. So what they have said should not be taken as truth.

Thank you for providing information about the fiber evidence. So it really may be truth that there were fibers tied inside the knot as well. But still I do think we should be open for the possibility that those fibers got there before anything sinister happened.

How can fibers get into, a ligature without the fibers having been shed by the individual who either tied or handled the ligature very shortly before it was tied?

I can think of many ways. Perhaps Patsy was holding the cord in her hands before any strangulation happened? Holding it against her sweater would surely get clothing fibers all over it before it was applied. Or, if Patsy had touched her sweater with her hands (like for example holding your palms on your chest when you are panicking and it is hard to breath) and fibers got attached to her hands, maybe her hands were even little sweaty from panicking. Then when she would have grabbed the rope I also can see fibers transferring onto it. Or maybe Patsy was caressing and stroking JB's head and kneeling close to apologize and say sorry to her while John applied the rope to her neck. That would also explain the fibers being entwined in the ligature and found around JB's upper body and head area.

The truth of the matter is that we do not know. If the fibers were there, they got transferred there somehow. I do not argue that fact. All I say is that we should be open to think other theories as well - Patsy's fibers being found inside the ligature knot does not mean for a fact that Patsy was the one who strangled her. Yes she might have been, but not in my theory. I do not claim to know any of it as a fact. She just could have handled the ligature at some point that night or handled JB's body.

Also, you say Patsy was present during the strangulation. I'm not sure I understand how that would support BDI. Why would Patsy observe Burke strangling JBR?

Then you have not read my theory thoroughly. I have not written that Patsy observed Burke strangling JBR.

The CBS series was scripted and was produced for ratings and entertainment purposes.

So are all the documentaries and many interviews. It does not mean we can not discuss them here or have them as the basis of our formed theories.

 

[Ponytale]

IMO there were / are potentially at least five elements of a possible crime(s) relating to the death of JBR. And they might not necessarily be in the following given order:

1) Some event or occurrence that resulted in the wound to JBR head;
2) an event or occurrence that resulted in the two-pronged mark or wound on JBR back;
3) events that resulted in the garrote being placed around JBR neck;
4) preparation of the ‘ransom note’
5) possible elements of staging the residence including placement of JBR in the basement, placing a blanket, and placing and removing tape on the body IIRC.

And if one believes the so-called ‘intruder’ theory the above becomes six elements; with 6) events regarding breaking and entering the residence.

Until there is either court-presented evidence of the above or a better publicly presented analysis of these events believed to have occurred and supported with evidence, there is IMO nothing more that needs be discussed or debated in this miscarriage of justice. Four people entered the residence that evening or early morning and only three remained the next morning. MOO

Exactly my thoughts as well.

 

[I am not Sherlock H.]

Exactly my thoughts as well.

Thank you @Ponytale ….and I just read your other posts and musings on this JBR case in one of the other threads for this case. (And just saying….. and not directed at you!….. there are way too many threads on this case. Why one might ask,…… seems just like the real case eh? Someone trying to confuse someone?)

Just keep an eye on the ball. When one IMO looks at those five or six elements, it IMO makes it frankly readily apparent as to what seems to have happened in that house and to the now dear deceased child. MOO

 

[Swirlz]

it IMO makes it frankly readily apparent as to what seems to have happened in that house and to the now dear deceased child. MOO

It wasn't Burke.

 

[Ponytale]

It wasn't Burke.

Were you there? If not, you do not know that, it is just your opinion.
My opinion is that Burke caused the accidental head blow that started this whole thing.

 

[Swirlz]

No, I wasn't there. Maybe an intruder broke in since none of us was there and could know for sure.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

O.k., but to get to Burke being responsible for SA and murder, you have to explain John's fibers linking him to sexual assault. How did John manage to clean JBR well enough to remove Burke's fibers but then manage to leave his own fibers? How did Patsy's fibers get into the ligature knot? How did multiple trained investigators fail to identify Burke as the party responsible for SA and murder. How in particular did Steve Thomas who watched Burke's interviews from behind glass not spot deception or come away believing Burke was guilty and how did the child psychologist, Susanne Bernhard, not conclude her interview believing Burke was the perpetrator?

It was either JB or PR who screamed IMO. In either scenerio, when PR was alerted to what had happened, I could see a mother trying to undue the ligature and deposting fibers.
The cleaning of her body comes with some debate but I'd say it would make sense.
I am in the minority who think she was found this way and while there was staging, the ligature was already in place and set the stage for the intruder theory.
I've always held the belief what happened was too heinous to pass off as an accident. JR and PR were intelligent enough to look for signs of life. I will never believe they finished her off.
There are a lot of running narratives about the Ramseys that paint them as horrible parents. I don't believe much of it is fair. Ive seen soccer parents who were far more disgusting then PR beauty pageants. Cancer treatment is brutal and I suspect they had a dysregulated child. JR was gone a lit Two very difficult things that would not have allowed them to be at their best. Were they likable? Ethical? I don't imagine so but that's very different than being a murderer. I got reamed on a post for saying in PRs mind she had every right to be offended at being accused of killing JB. I don't believe she did and that hurt her deeply.
Imo, their disgusting behavior came after with the " take no prisoners" cover up.
These are just theories in the murder and not based in fact. I can't help but see this as far more than her getting knocked on the head.

 

[Swirlz]

The fibers were located INSIDE the ligature knot. Fibers don't magically transfer into the INSIDE of a ligature knot. Fumbling around with a knot that has already been tied is not going to transfer fibers into the inside of the knot.

I'm not clear on how the cleaning of the lower regions of the body can imply staging for Burke because the area is devoid of physical evidence of Burke although fibers shed from both a cotton towel and John Ramsey's sweater are present in that area. If the area was wiped well enough to remove Burke's evidence, evidence of John shouldn't be present either.

There is zero evidence to suggest Burke Ramsey was "dysregulated". He's described by his teachers as "withdrawn" but "normal". Nannies have described Burke as quiet and well behaved, he was also described as having many friends.

 

[ispywithmylittleeye]

The fibers were located INSIDE the ligature knot. Fibers don't magically transfer into the INSIDE of a ligature knot. Fumbling around with a knot that has already been tied is not going to transfer fibers into the inside of the knot.

I'm not clear on how the cleaning of the lower regions of the body can imply staging for Burke because the area is devoid of physical evidence of Burke although fibers shed from both a cotton towel and John Ramsey's sweater are present in that area. If the area was wiped well enough to remove Burke's evidence, evidence of John shouldn't be present either.

There is zero evidence to suggest Burke Ramsey was "dysregulated". He's described by his teachers as "withdrawn" but "normal". Nannies have described Burke as quiet and well behaved, he was also described as having many friends.

I'm not sure how you can deduce that if JR cleaned her up well enough to remove any evidence of BR that it was then impossible for him to leave his own fiber evidence behind. There is a starting point and an end point to the process. Him leaving trace evidence could have happened at the end.
As for BR, dysregulation isn't something that necessarily happens 24/7. Often, children who have emotional problems keep it together all day at school which creates greater stress on them and then they fall apart when they get home. The opposite can be true also. Kids can become unglued at school due to the demands and show few problems at home as it is their sanctuary.
There were people who came forward and said he had a bad temper.

 

[Swirlz]

There is only one person who has come forward to say Burke had a bad temper, a former family friend named Judith Phillips who told a story about Patsy claiming an incident from when Burke was 7 where he struck JBR with a golf club was intentional and that Patsy told her he "has a temper". If Phillips told this story to the police, they didn't believe it because the lead investigator believed the golf club incident was an accident. She went public with this in 2016.

I don't think John Ramsey wiped blood off of his unconscious 6 yr. old's private area and the redressed her in size 12 underpants to cover for Burke.

 

[Ponytale]

The fibers were located INSIDE the ligature knot. Fibers don't magically transfer into the INSIDE of a ligature knot. Fumbling around with a knot that has already been tied is not going to transfer fibers into the inside of the knot.

There were also JBs own hair tied inside the ligature knot. One explanation could be that Patsy's clothing fibers could have transferred there with the hair. I'm sure they hugged and/or snuggled previously at some point in the day, at the party or after the party. They were a mother and a child. That way JB could have gotten Patsy's sweater fibers into her hair and later they could have transferred into the knot. Just one more possibility to consider.

 

[Swirlz]

If fibers transfer that easily, where are Burke's fibers?

 

[CloudedTruth]

If fibers transfer that easily, where are Burke's fibers?

Excellent question.

The facts are that Patsy's fibers were all over the scene. On the sticky side of the duct tape that covered JB's mouth, in the paint tray and all over the cords and intertwined in them, on the white blanket.

 

[PrairieWind]

I have suspected Burke as well.

 

[Swirlz]

I have suspected Burke as well.

Based on what evidence?

 

[borndem]

Welcome to Websleuths,

Ponytale !!​

 

[Ray_of_hope]

John was asked extensive questions about whether or not he helped JBR in the bathroom or with dressing that day and he adamantly denied having had that kind of contact with her and Patsy didn't say she recalled him doing this either. Both John and Patsy were asked extensive questions about laundering and both denied the sweater John's fibers in JBR's vulva had been shed from had ever been either worn or laundered before, their position was that the sweater had been taken from straight out of the package.

The fibers that were found INSIDE the ligature knot could NOT have been transferred by Patsy touching or caressing JBR's neck after she'd found the body. Either Patsy tied the knot or handled the cord very shortly before and handed it to the person who did.

No investigator other than James Kolar has ever suggested they believe Burke Ramsey is the perpetrator of this crime. Kolar reviewed evidence while working briefly for the Boulder DA in 2005 and self-published a book titled Foreign Faction.

Transfer of clothing fibers of family members can take place when someone lumps together clothing to be washed, dried and folded. Especially when tumbled dry and the clothing attaches together, mixes and transfers lint, etc. Clothing fibers can then transfer to vaginal folds simply by being raised and lowered when using the rest room. If any moisture is left in the meatal area, especially by a young child, the moisture will grab the fibers and hold them.
I found your post persuasive and well thought out. Your command of the English language is excellent, IMO. The fact that the Ramsey parents let their young son go to a neighbor's home is startling because they don't know who the kidnapper(s) is/are and with a lot of personal info in the ransom letter, the kidnapper could be a 'friend', employee, etc.
Furthermore, like all kidnappers there was verbiage telling them not to call LE or tell anyone, so they have tons of friends come to the home which may have put JB's life in danger.
I can only think that staging was due to a family member being involved and I find your theory plausible.