Kaine tells us about Terri and PPD - what role does it play in this case, if any?

[gwenabob]

I thought I had read somewhere on one of these threads that D & K didn't have an official (court-ordered) custody / visitation, that it was worked out between the two of them. That didn't make sense to me, because I thought that was part of any divorce order. Maybe it isn't...

Or was it that Desiree gave Kyron over to Kaine without an order (if so, does that mean she still has legal custody)? Does "shared custody" mean the parents get to decide where the kids live, when visitation occurs, etc?

They did have a court order. I saw the docket. It was in March of 2004.

 

[wondering1]

I thought I had read somewhere on one of these threads that D & K didn't have an official (court-ordered) custody / visitation, that it was worked out between the two of them. That didn't make sense to me, because I thought that was part of any divorce order. Maybe it isn't...

Or was it that Desiree gave Kyron over to Kaine without an order (if so, does that mean she still has legal custody)? Does "shared custody" mean the parents get to decide where the kids live, when visitation occurs, etc?

I don't know any details about that. But even if Kaine got custody without an order (by consent when DY was ill), she would have been hard pressed to enforce her rights under the pre-existing order when she was able to since there had been a significant "change in circumstances," i.e. kyron living with dad for some period and her illness-- which, together with the best interests of the child, is the criteria for a custody mod. She may, to this day, have an order saying she is the primary custodial parent, but if she tried to enforce it under the circumstances prior to Kyron going missing, I don't think she would have been successful.

Joint legal custody is decision making. Joint physical custody is shared parenting time. You can have either, but usually both. At least these days.

 

[cypress]

With regard to this phone call from the school and Terri giving Desiree an account of the morning:

If Kaine was already gone home when Desiree called Terri, then it's reasonable to assume that Terri and Kaine were otherwise occupied with LE leading up to the point that Desiree was called.

It's also interesting that Desiree called Terri, not Kaine, immediately. Also interesting that Terri was supposed to drive Kyron to Eugene to meet Desiree. For a woman no one trusted, Terri was sure trusted to help Kyron with his school projects, drive Kyron around, be the primary caretaker of Kyron, and drive Kyron when it was his scheduled weekend with his biological mother.

Having said that, if you left your child or someone else's child at school, and you were attempting to explain the events leading up to him being missing, what would you say? Wouldn't you say something like, "I left Tommy right here! I told him to tuck in his shirt and I waved and everything was fine and I left him right here!" What should she have said? Nothing? I want a lawyer? I don't remember?

According to Desiree, Terri giving an account of that part of the morning is suspicous, but according to Desiree, Terri not giving a full account of the rest of the day is suspicious, too.

This case is maddening.

 

[wondering1]

I thought I had read somewhere on one of these threads that D & K didn't have an official (court-ordered) custody / visitation, that it was worked out between the two of them. That didn't make sense to me, because I thought that was part of any divorce order. Maybe it isn't...

Or was it that Desiree gave Kyron over to Kaine without an order (if so, does that mean she still has legal custody)? Does "shared custody" mean the parents get to decide where the kids live, when visitation occurs, etc?

oops...I see I didn't actually address your question. Fwiw, I've never seen a divorce that didn't have a custody order. I've seen many, however, that have an order that's merely a formality that the parties disregard. In fact, I have such an order lol. Nonetheless, it's still in place and subject to potential enforcement. However, the only things the judge will consider is the best interests of the child and a significant change in circumstances. So if the parties have allowed such a change by not following the original order, the court is not likely to enforce it, imo.

When they say there's "no order," maybe people mean they don't go by it or strictly enforce it. That's my situation and no one cares so long as no one complains.

 

[Calliope]

They did have a court order. I saw the docket. It was in March of 2004.

Thanks. I've never heard of a divorce order that didn't include some mention of custody. I suppose anything is possible. I can't recall where I'd read it, maybe in the 'blended family' article or thread; it just gave me the impression that they'd worked most if not all of the custody and visitation issues out between themselves.

 

[wondering1]

With regard to this phone call from the school and Terri giving Desiree an account of the morning:

If Kaine was already gone home when Desiree called Terri, then it's reasonable to assume that Terri and Kaine were otherwise occupied with LE leading up to the point that Desiree was called.

It's also interesting that Desiree called Terri, not Kaine, immediately. Also interesting that Terri was supposed to drive Kyron to Eugene to meet Desiree. For a woman no one trusted, Terri was sure trusted to help Kyron with his school projects, drive Kyron around, be the primary caretaker of Kyron, and drive Kyron when it was his scheduled weekend with his biological mother.

Having said that, if you left your child or someone else's child at school, and you were attempting to explain the events leading up to him being missing, what would you say? Wouldn't you say something like, "I left Tommy right here! I told him to tuck in his shirt and I waved and everything was fine and I left him right here!" What should she have said? Nothing? I want a lawyer? I don't remember?

According to Desiree, Terri giving an account of that part of the morning is suspicous, but according to Desiree, Terri not giving a full account of the rest of the day is suspicious, too.

This case is maddening.

bbm

I have to ask...are you a stepmother? lol Speaking from personal experience, not thinking a stepmom or gf is trustworthy, in general, is quite a different thing than thinking that she'll adbuct (or worse) my child. Plus, there's not a whole heck of a lot you can do about your personal feelings absent concrete proof of abuse. It's futile.

I believe DY called TH because she was her routine contact for drop off and pick up and also because she was the one that was "there."

And regarding her suspicion of the account, it's based on what was said in detail (TH's every step). To answer your question, I've already posted what I would have said. It went something like this "I took him to the science fair and he went to class, but he didn't get off the bus" because, as an innocent person, the "not getting off the bus" is the significant event, not the details of my leaving the school.

Your post, in general, seems to articulate my theory about TH's primary motive. I get all the chit and she gets all the fun and glory.

 

[Cher352]

I haven't seen this brought up but I wonder about TH's school volunteering and her PPD. I think she was quite active and worked with their reading program prior to the baby's birth but has she done any of this since the birth of the baby? I know taking care of a new child could have given her an excuse but if her PPD was bad enough she probably could have coped with it either.

 

[Cher352]

Good question. In the Oregonian sit-down, DY says that the school called her. She also said she asked the person from the school if "they" were "there," and was told that they were. So DY hung up with the school and called TH. All of that seemed weird to me. The only thing I can think of is that the school is obligated to call the emergency contact directly. Otherwise, what if TH/KH (or whomever) didn't notify DY, even if they said they were going to.

I can see various other reasons too why TH had the school make the call other than the one you mentioned.

Perhaps TH asked the school to call because she was too distraught or in shock of the situation once she got to the school and realized Kyron was really not there. I know that when I had a family member seriously hurt I couldn't even remember any of the phone numbers of my other family members, it was like everything was in slow motion.

Or maybe TH was not wanting her own phone tied up in case KH or LE tried to call her on it.

 

[Donjeta]

[JMO and just speculation] but what strikes me as suspicious about Desiree's description of Terri's account is that it seems to concentrate on what we now know is the last sighting of him, and feels a bit like she tries to reinforce the notion that it's not her fault, it's the school's fault. Every sentence is about Terri, not Kyron, like she's reciting her alibi. She'd gone, she'd stayed, she'd waved, she didn't walk, she left. It reads a bit like a rehearsed story about a last sighting IMO, the waving and not walking him to the classroom might be a bit TMI. (I guess if she's innocent it might be that the last time she saw her beloved boy was just etched in her memory despite her otherwise apparent memory difficulties about the day's activities.)

A person who is genuinely concerned for Kyron might concentrate more on the moment that they realized he was missing and what may have happened to him instead of his own movements. Just say I left him at school in the morning and thought he was there but he wasn't on the school bus and his teacher says he never got to class and was marked absent at ten and he must have gone missing during the day and I wonder if he's wandered off and got lost or been abducted, there were a lot of strangers at the science fair oh my god I hope he's okay...

Instead:
"She said that she'd gone to the science fair, that she had stayed for a little while, and then she waved at him as he was walking towards his classroom, and she didn't walk him to his classroom, and then she left."

We weren't there to listen in to this conversation so it's naturally all up to how precise Desiree's account is and she might remember something differently. But if this is a true account of the way it went I think it would cause a couple of statement analysis red flags go up.

http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/07/kyron_hormans_mother_recalls_d.html

 

[GrainneDhu]

"it wasn't anything that was OVERLY violent in nature". This tells me that Terri did have some violence but wasn't overly violent. PPD is no excuse for a child going missing. Are women still thought of as so hystrionic that some violence is okay!

I wondered if KH didn't have a bit of a mix-up between two different words that sound similar. I wondered if he meant "it was nothing overtly violent in nature" which makes more sense in the context; if it was not overtly violent in nature, it would seem okay to leave the children in her care.

I hear and read people mix up the two words quite often.

 

[wondering1]

I can see various other reasons too why TH had the school make the call other than the one you mentioned.

Perhaps TH asked the school to call because she was too distraught or in shock of the situation once she got to the school and realized Kyron was really not there. I know that when I had a family member seriously hurt I couldn't even remember any of the phone numbers of my other family members, it was like everything was in slow motion.

Or maybe TH was not wanting her own phone tied up in case KH or LE tried to call her on it.

when my son was briefly missing from the bus, I called the school and his dad. His dad's number is programmed into my phone, so I didn't have to recall it. Granted, their are times (getting a new phone) when that might not be the case, and that's just me. Personally, I don't think it matters that much why TH or KH didn't call DY directly. Just a teeny, tiny piece of the puzzle imo, although with potentially some significance. I think the phone call piece was mostly about why DY concluded TH had something to do with Kyron's disappearance based on the content of the call, not that she had to call TH herself. jmoo

 

[txsvicki]

I wondered if KH didn't have a bit of a mix-up between two different words that sound similar. I wondered if he meant "it was nothing overtly violent in nature" which makes more sense in the context; if it was not overtly violent in nature, it would seem okay to leave the children in her care.

I hear and read people mix up the two words quite often.

It's possible, but I'm not buying it. Kaine seems to use very specific certain words in statements and not stumble around with using different words. Not being "overtly" violent would actually still mean that she was violent. IMO, Kaine is saying that she was violent to some degree. He also says in the article that she would be emotional then frustrated. Those two moods seem like they could be the same. He just wasn't very specific of what she actually did.

 

[OneLostGrl]

A family might become used to living with a depressed person, but if Terri was exhibiting symptoms of PPP or Major Depression with psychotic features, her husband, mom, Ky, and many others would never have assumed that she was ok. There is nothing normal about the warning signs of psychosis or psychotic behavior. Individuals may not know what word to label such spooky behavior, but they know it is very abnormal. Even toddlers and other nonhuman animals can recognize that psychotic behavior frightens them and is therefore, potentially dangerous.

Early symptoms
-disorganized speech, unable to communicate ideas effectively
-flat affect
-voices that only Terri could hear
-visions that only Terri could see
-paranoid, bizarre thoughts
-inability to focus or difficulty with completing the normal tasks of life
-change in sleep habits
-withdrawal


Psychotic symptoms
-very abnormal/inappropriate displays of emotion
-delusions
-hallucinations
-illusions
-mania
-depression and suicidal gestures and ideations
-extreme confusion
-fear and paranoia
-grossly disorganized behavior and speech, inability to complete everyday tasks
-loss of touch with reality
-depersonalization
-disrupted sleep patterns

Depression of any type is not a viable excuse for Terri. Fourteen million Americans had a serious depressive episode last year. Thirty five million Americans have suffered from depression in their lifetimes. These millions of Americans did not kill their child or stepchild. Terri's defense will have to prove that she was more than depressed (psychotic) if they intend to use a mental health problem as her defense.

I didn't realize anyone said she was psychotic, I only saw PPD mentioned. lol I guess that's what happens when I don't read the entire thread before commenting. I know nothing excuses her behavior if she harmed him. Trust me, I'd never try to use mental illness as an excuse for anyones bad behavior.