Kentucky - Judge killed, sheriff arrested in Letcher County courthouse shooting - Sep. 19, 2024 # 2

[gitana1]

It appears he would have to, at minimum, show that due to a mental illness he was unable to conform his conduct to the law.

Section 504.020 - Mental illness or intellectual disability, Ky. Rev. Stat. § 504.020 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Section 504.020 - Mental illness or intellectual disability, Ky. Rev. Stat. § 504.020, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

That’s actually much more liberal than many states but he would still have a seriously uphill battle effectively using that defense.

 

[gitana1]

Yates had a long, documented history of diagnosed mental illness. And even she got found guilty the first time around. What happened with her was heartbreakingly preventable, had she been given proper treatment and support. There is no way she could have been elected to any kind of office and maintained a position for years, as the sheriff did.

Now, yes, there are conditions that can come on fast. Tumours, for example. But if the defense is going to argue insanity, they're going to have to be able to show a whole bevy of competent, experienced witnesses who are willing to swear to the sheriff being demonstrably, unequivocally out of his mind when he committed this act. And I think it's going to be a hard bar for them to clear. He got the judge alone, he shot him until he was sure he was dead, and he surrendered. That, to me says he knew what he was doing, he knew that what he was doing would kill the judge, and he knew what he was doing was wrong. And if he knew all those things, then in most places, that means you don't meet the bar for legal insanity.

MOO

Agreed. He may have a slightly better shot than in many states, based on KY law as I read it, but it still appears to be an almost impossible burden.

I will say though that sudden psychosis without prior diagnosis can and does occur. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen it successfully used to defend a murder, however.

But when I say “sudden” I don’t mean all at once. Usually, those “sudden” episodes are precipitated by long-term lack of sleep and/or dehydration and have a (I think the term is) prodromal phase that involves the person becoming quieter than usual, isolating, and having paranoid thoughts. I don’t know if that occurred here.

 

[iamshadow21]

It appears he would have to, at minimum, show that due to a mental illness he was unable to conform his conduct to the law.

Section 504.020 - Mental illness or intellectual disability, Ky. Rev. Stat. § 504.020 | Casetext Search + Citator

Read Section 504.020 - Mental illness or intellectual disability, Ky. Rev. Stat. § 504.020, see flags on bad law, and search Casetext’s comprehensive legal database

casetext.com

That’s actually much more liberal than many states but he would still have a seriously uphill battle effectively using that defense.

And if his state of mind was brought on by something like abuse of drugs or alcohol, rather than being an organic condition he had zero control over, then he's out of luck. I know there have been cases of people doing weird stuff on Ambien, but there's no way he sleepwalked through an entire day including a lunch with friends before the crime.

MOO

 

[Friday Fan]

Breaks During Civil Depo?
“I don’t recall,” said Stines. “ I am having an episode. Sorry.”


Ten breaks at an hours-long depo, and per Plaintiff & atty's rep'ing her in a civil
case, Stines "frequently asked for breaks." *

I wonder:
- specifically, how many hours was the depo?
- were ALL ten breaks taken at depo requested by Stine himself? Or did the ten breaks include Stines' requested breaks plus breaks requested by OTHERS?
- Aside from Stines' "having an episode" did he state REASONS for his requests?
(ETA: Not that he was obligated to state a reason, afaik)
- How LONG was each break requested by Stines?
- How long were the breaks requested by others?
- Did court reporter note each break's starting & ending time?
- Was the depo video recorded?

Under typical conditions at a civil case depo, my understanding & IME is that
if the witness, atty's, court reporter (or some others present) requests a break, there's usually no objection.

________________________________
* "The plaintiff and her two attorneys said Stines appeared agitated during the hours-long deposition and frequently asked for breaks. At one point, Stines was asked whether he had authorized his deputy to use public equipment to manage the ankle monitors.
“I don’t recall,” said Stines. “ I am having an episode. Sorry.”
"Stines took another break, one of 10, according to the deposition."

^ Why was a Kentucky judge killed? So far, it remains a mystery

"I'm having an episode", is odd. If I was in his shoes and just couldn't remember, I would probably start to roll my eyes and concentrate and then say, "It's not clear to me at this moment. Let me get a sip of water". (Implying that defendant is tired from hours of deposition) Then, it eventually would come down to something like: I'm trying hard. I'm trying to remember those dates, I just can't remember them etc.

Of course, a generic quick, "I don't remember" is often part of a defense or just being lazy because it doesn't matter what they say. But I don't see that going on here. He's complaining about an "episode".

 

[Warwick7]

"We believe there had to be a compelling reason for Sheriff Stines to feel like he had to take action,” Bartley says. “We are looking forward to obtaining addition information..."

Lawyer for Sheriff Who Killed Judge Says It Wasn't Planned, Will Use 'Extreme Emotional Disturbance' Defense

A lawyer for Shawn “Mickey” Stines, the Kentucky sheriff accused of killing District Judge Kevin Mullins, says the fatal shooting wasn’t planned, arguing that the incident 'occurred in the heat of passion.'

people.com

 

[iamshadow21]

Agreed. He may have a slightly better shot than in many states, based on KY law as I read it, but it still appears to be an almost impossible burden.

I will say though that sudden psychosis without prior diagnosis can and does occur. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen it successfully used to defend a murder, however.

But when I say “sudden” I don’t mean all at once. Usually, those “sudden” episodes are precipitated by long-term lack of sleep and/or dehydration and have a (I think the term is) prodromal phase that involves the person becoming quieter than usual, isolating, and having paranoid thoughts. I don’t know if that occurred here.

I think that anecdotal accounts show that he was paranoid and isolating, and his comments about people trying to take his wife and daughter could show he was delusional.

But he also could have been jealous, obsessive, and planning his defense in the lead up to the crime, which are not symptoms of insanity, but calculation and violence.

I think it's too soon to know which way this is going to go. I'm going to be watching this one closely. If there is a competency assessment filed for in the next while, it might show which way the wind is blowing. But if he just proceeds towards trial without any of that, then it's entirely possible that this was just straight up cold blooded, not crazy.

MOO

 

[gitana1]

More on the prodromal phase and how it looks when someone becomes suddenly psychotic:

Some common problems encountered during the prodrome are:

• mood swings
• confusion, irritability, anxiety or feeling depressed
• loss of concentration
• struggling to cope with work or study
• reckless or disinhibited behaviour
• preferring to spend time alone or becoming withdrawn
• loss of interest in activities
• perceiving or interpreting things oddly

Prodrome phase

This web page is for Prodrome phase which is a part of the Somerset NHS Foundation Trust. Please visit the Trust website for all our services and contact details.

www.somersetft.nhs.uk

Here’s a symptom of the acute stage of psychosis that could possibly apply in a case like this:

False or delusional beliefs​

You may have strange ideas or beliefs that you didn’t have before. Sometimes you may become preoccupied or convinced of these beliefs, no matter how good or logical the counterargument is. Examples of delusions include the belief that people are watching you or are going to harm you, feeling that people can read your mind, or believing you have special powers.

Same link as above.

Here are some causes of psychosis that are unrelated to schizophrenia or bipolar polar disorder:

“Other possible causes of psychosis include sleep deprivation, certain prescription medications, and the misuse of alcohol or drugs. A mental illness, such as schizophrenia, is typically diagnosed by excluding these other causes.”

Understanding Psychosis

This fact sheet presents information on psychosis including causes, signs and symptoms, treatment, and resources for help.

www.nimh.nih.gov

If there is no real reason for this murder, it could be worth a look into some sort of mental break, from a defense standpoint.

People in psychosis aren’t always raving, babbling or obviously out of their minds. Sometimes they’re weirdly calm, apparently.

 

[gitana1]

I think that anecdotal accounts show that he was paranoid and isolating, and his comments about people trying to take his wife and daughter could show he was delusional.

But he also could have been jealous, obsessive, and planning his defense in the lead up to the crime, which are not symptoms of insanity, but calculation and violence.

I think it's too soon to know which way this is going to go. I'm going to be watching this one closely. If there is a competency assessment filed for in the next while, it might show which way the wind is blowing. But if he just proceeds towards trial without any of that, then it's entirely possible that this was just straight up cold blooded, not crazy.

MOO

Yes. It will be interesting.

I’m getting the sense from how his daughter was publicly there at trial and that LE failed to take her phone, that the victim wasn’t doing anything nefarious to her. The reason I say that is because first, investigators want to prove motive, even though it’s not an element of murder. But it can go to malice. So if they believed a connection between the daughter and judge existed, they’d probably grab her phone.

Second, if judge Mullins was having an inappropriate relationship with Stines’ daughter, it usually takes months for the brainwashing involved in such “relationships” to wear off. And typically, from what we’ve seen, there is a big element of shame. But the daughter here was right there, steadfastly in public support of her father.

That makes me feel that nothing was going on between the judge and her.

So Stines may have been jealous and obsessive. But I’m guessing her had no valid reason to be.

 

[Warwick7]

I just want to point out there can be common and serious neuropsychiatric complication in cancer patients, delirium can cause delusions, hallucinations, and other symptoms.

A friend of mind in the last 10 days has lost 32 lbs. She has been diagnosed with cancer not that long ago.

With Stines it's just a thought.

 

[iamshadow21]

I just want to point out there can be common and serious neuropsychiatric complication in cancer patients, delirium can cause delusions, hallucinations, and other symptoms.

A friend of mind in the last 10 days has lost 32 lbs. She has been diagnosed with cancer not that long ago.

With Stines it's just a thought.

I know Stines complained he'd lost a large amount of weight, but is there any sign of it? He didn't look different to me after arrest vs pictures before.

MOO

 

[Ontario Mom]

I know Stines complained he'd lost a large amount of weight, but is there any sign of it? He didn't look different to me after arrest vs pictures before.

MOO

I haven't seen any pics of him immediately prior to the rapid weight loss he claimed, but I do know that when a heavy set person loses weight it's not nearly as obvious right away, as when a smaller person loses weight. I also know it's possible to lose a crazy amount all at once due to various things, including illness or severe stress (source: myself) so I suspect he was telling the truth about that.

jmo

 

[Ontario Mom]

Yes. It will be interesting.

I’m getting the sense from how his daughter was publicly there at trial and that LE failed to take her phone, that the victim wasn’t doing anything nefarious to her. The reason I say that is because first, investigators want to prove motive, even though it’s not an element of murder. But it can go to malice. So if they believed a connection between the daughter and judge existed, they’d probably grab her phone.

Second, if judge Mullins was having an inappropriate relationship with Stines’ daughter, it usually takes months for the brainwashing involved in such “relationships” to wear off. And typically, from what we’ve seen, there is a big element of shame. But the daughter here was right there, steadfastly in public support of her father.

That makes me feel that nothing was going on between the judge and her.

So Stines may have been jealous and obsessive. But I’m guessing her had no valid reason to be.

Except the lead detective did make it very clear during prelim, that at least he was under the impression that even though the daughter's phone wasn't obtained, whatever would have been on it would also be found in the judge's cell records, and that she also made statements to whoever interviewed her, about what occured during her conversations with the judge.

So, there's that. And who in the world knows what that means or how that fits, but that's what he said.

 

[Parsnip]

Did court reporter note each break's starting & ending time?

This would be noted in a parenthetical in the depo transcript, @al66pine. I would assume hiring counsel ordered the transcript, and this is where the count of breaks originated.

Eta: request(s) for a break from MS would likely happen during the Q&A portion of the depo, if requested by MS during examination. Any request by anyone else, or if there had been discussion about a break on the heels of a request by MS, it would still have been recorded, but then it would be recorded as colloquy, noting each speaker and his/her statements. Ime.

 

[Parsnip]

she also made statements to whoever interviewed her, about what occured during her conversations with the judge.

I’m sorry to nitpick, but just to keep us on track, we actually don’t know for certain what conversations are being referred to. It could be convos with MS, KM, or the KSP who interviewed her. The testimony at the PC hearing was really unclear.

 

[Ontario Mom]

I’m sorry to nitpick, but just to keep us on track, we actually don’t know for certain what conversations are being referred to. It could be convos with MS, KM, or the KSP who interviewed her. The testimony at the PC hearing was really unclear.

It was quite clear to me what conversations the detective was referring to. That's okay, we disagree.

 

[LadyL]

The judge and sheriff denied any knowledge of the crimes to which the now-former deputy pleaded guilty. It’s unclear if the case is connected to the shooting.

The plaintiff and her two attorneys said Stines appeared agitated during the hours-long deposition and frequently asked for breaks. At one point, Stines was asked whether he had authorized his deputy to use public equipment to manage the ankle monitors.

“I don’t recall,” said Stines. “ I am having an episode. Sorry.”

Stines took another break, one of 10, according to the deposition.

Why was a Kentucky judge killed? So far, it remains a mystery

The one-of-a-kind killing of a Kentucky judge, allegedly by the local sheriff, has shaken tight-knit Letcher County, leaving people baffled and unnerved as police try to figure out a motive.

www.wboi.org

an episode ... hmmm

 

[Elley Mae]

"I'm having an episode", is odd. If I was in his shoes and just couldn't remember, I would probably start to roll my eyes and concentrate and then say, "It's not clear to me at this moment. Let me get a sip of water". (Implying that defendant is tired from hours of deposition) Then, it eventually would come down to something like: I'm trying hard. I'm trying to remember those dates, I just can't remember them etc.

Of course, a generic quick, "I don't remember" is often part of a defense or just being lazy because it doesn't matter what they say. But I don't see that going on here. He's complaining about an "episode".

I am not a Doctor, but the word “episode” reminded me of my brother. He had anxiety attacks.

Jmo

 

[susiQ]

I know Stines complained he'd lost a large amount of weight, but is there any sign of it? He didn't look different to me after arrest vs pictures before.

MOO

Just a thought, but in a man that may weigh 350+ lbs, a 40 lb loss is not noticeable except on a scale. If someone weighs 200 lbs, you will notice the 40 lbs. In someone that normally weighs 150 lbs, a 40 lb loss would be shocking. JMO

eta: I see @Ontario Mom already addressed this .

 

[iamshadow21]

Just a thought, but in a man that may weigh 350+ lbs, a 40 lb loss is not noticeable except on a scale. If someone weighs 200 lbs, you will notice the 40 lbs. In someone that normally weighs 150 lbs, a 40 lb loss would be shocking. JMO

eta: I see @Ontario Mom already addressed this .

I wouldn't have thought he weighed that much from the pictures. But maybe I'm not a good judge of that kind of thing.

MOO

 

[LadyL]

Agreed. He may have a slightly better shot than in many states, based on KY law as I read it, but it still appears to be an almost impossible burden.

I will say though that sudden psychosis without prior diagnosis can and does occur. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen it successfully used to defend a murder, however.

But when I say “sudden” I don’t mean all at once. Usually, those “sudden” episodes are precipitated by long-term lack of sleep and/or dehydration and have a (I think the term is) prodromal phase that involves the person becoming quieter than usual, isolating, and having paranoid thoughts. I don’t know if that occurred here.

[bbm]

I think that anecdotal accounts show that he was paranoid and isolating, and his comments about people trying to take his wife and daughter could show he was delusional.

But he also could have been jealous, obsessive, and planning his defense in the lead up to the crime, which are not symptoms of insanity, but calculation and violence.

I think it's too soon to know which way this is going to go. I'm going to be watching this one closely. If there is a competency assessment filed for in the next while, it might show which way the wind is blowing. But if he just proceeds towards trial without any of that, then it's entirely possible that this was just straight up cold blooded, not crazy.

MOO

we also heard that he was quieter than usual specifically at the lunch if not before also - something about his behaviour changing in the prior weeks