Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Whaleshark]

And this is my point regarding Patsy and the pineapple, that she either forgot or was ignorant about it, or alike the above items you list, if such detail was entered into, so to keep in step with the staging plan, surely she would have done something?

But that's just it, if she was ignorant about JonBenet eating it in the first place, and was not used to cleaning up, in the second place, she would not see any significance in needing to stage it one way or the other...

And in the 3rd place, the bowl may not have been out on the table that night anyway, for her to worry about.

But yes -

-IF she knew that JonBenet had some pineapple that night, and
- IF she was the one (and only) checking everything was staged accurately, and wanted to make sure that no one would think JonBenet was up, and
- IF she knew that the pineapple would be found out in the autopsy, AND that it could be determined when it was eaten, the time of death, the exact food match, and all the associated implications, and
- IF she KNEW AND then would have REMEMBERED to CONSIDER that in all the staging, THEN she would definitely care about putting up the pineapple.

That's a lot of 'IFs'.

Not unless you want to blame the intruder for stealing them, LOL.

Right. But she didn't - cuz she produced them. Doh. But she had to. Doh.
Story was screwed from the beginning on that one...

IMO Patsy and John were covering up for someone else, possibly each other, or Burke?

So, yeah, that still makes the most sense.

Otherwise, her story should never change; her inconsistencies should not occur, and she wouldn't have any lies to remember. Nor curious details to forget.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

I could only agree that docg theory has very interesting angles...but IMO he's wrong in regards that John wrote RN. The STYLE, the MANNER of how RN was structured doesn't fit John's psyhological profile. Again, JMO. John is introverted person, CEO, non-emotional, manipulated, cold-head person. He would NEVER write this silly 'War and Piece' epic! His RN would be straight to the point, scary, DIRECTIVE and SHORT! So, IMO, John didn't write this RN. Another thing which I don't agree with docg is 911 call. IMO, the 911 call was played perfectly by the only person who MUST 'perform' this role: Patsy. If John called 911 - it would sounds almost as 'non-urgent' and minimized the 'staging' effort.

You see, all elements of JBR murder case (head blow, strangulation, acute sexual assult) -screams RAGE to me. Now, on apposite site, look at some 'staging' elements (RN, re-dressing, cleaning)...Would you say they have some 'kindness' in them??? However, I still wondering why strangulation (such a cruel method!) was choosen for 'staging': to emphasize the cruelty of the kidnappers or to HIDE something else??? ...nothing is one-dimentional in this puzzle.:banghead:

Bottom line, IMO, JDI is not the right answer for me. JDI theory has as many holes as PDI and BDI...

It was the most humane of their choices. They could of called 911 at any point for help, but they chose to pulled that cord tight. Why didn't they call for help? They had nothing to hide right? Someone added things to "comfort" JonBenet and that showed love and sorrow.

 

[UKGuy]

But that's just it, if she was ignorant about JonBenet eating it in the first place, and was not used to cleaning up, in the second place, she would not see any significance in needing to stage it one way or the other...

And in the 3rd place, the bowl may not have been out on the table that night anyway, for her to worry about.

But yes -

-IF she knew that JonBenet had some pineapple that night, and
- IF she was the one (and only) checking everything was staged accurately, and wanted to make sure that no one would think JonBenet was up, and
- IF she knew that the pineapple would be found out in the autopsy, AND that it could be determined when it was eaten, the time of death, the exact food match, and all the associated implications, and
- IF she KNEW AND then would have REMEMBERED to CONSIDER that in all the staging, THEN she would definitely care about putting up the pineapple.

That's a lot of 'IFs'.




Right. But she didn't - cuz she produced them. Doh. But she had to. Doh.
Story was screwed from the beginning on that one...



So, yeah, that still makes the most sense.

Otherwise, her story should never change; her inconsistencies should not occur, and she wouldn't have any lies to remember. Nor curious details to forget.

Whaleshark,

But that's just it, if she was ignorant about JonBenet eating it in the first place, and was not used to cleaning up, in the second place, she would not see any significance in needing to stage it one way or the other...

Precisely my point, and if we could establish this, then we could slim down the suspect list.

And in the 3rd place, the bowl may not have been out on the table that night anyway, for her to worry about.

The location of the bowl, does not matter, its its presence that matters. If it had been washed and put away in a cupboard, then we could not call the Ramsey's version of events into question with such confidence. Team Ramsey and all the IDI could suggest that the intruder fed the pineapple to JonBenet?

-IF she knew that JonBenet had some pineapple that night,

...

This is the only one that matters, since I am positing PDI.

The same questions could be asked of John, but he never disowned the tableware, and its really Patsy we would expect to prepare a pineapple snack for JonBenet?


.

 

[Bonnette]

The older I get and the more I observe of human nature, the clearer it becomes that emotions are layered and multifactorial. It is possible to do terrible things and feel genuinely awful about them. I have no doubt that PR was distraught about JBR, at the same time that she needed to rise (as she saw it) to the occasion. She and JR, alike, had plenty of reason to feel a symphony of emotions: guilt, anguish, remorse, fear, horror, anger, dread, love, familial allegiance (however skewed), the primal urge to save face, and much more - simultaneously. Amid such a morass, evidence is the best chance truth has. We can't draw meaningful conclusions from behavior without it, even when we try to put ourselves in others' shoes. The Boulder DA's office blew it.

 

[dodie20]

I think it is likely the injuries inflicted to JonBenet were not staged. I think it is more likely that if BR is responsible that he did those things to her.

Actually, as far as the injuries were concerned, I think it's possible, that none of them were a part of staging. Who, and I'm seriously wondering this, would kill a kid, and then try to cover the murder, by inflicting more injuries? That makes no sense, as far a the criminal mind is concerned. He'd be at the scene longer, therefore raising his chances of getting caught, and he would have more opportunity to leave evidence, etc...,If this was done in a rage, I can understand overkill, but not extra injury staging, which would require a calmed down, but calculative demeanor. IMO, a calmed down PR, for instance, would feel remorse and try to make her daughter more comfortable...not, stage a few extra injuries, build a garrotte, and Then make her more comfortable. IMO, somebody was abusing and torturing JBR, and this time it went way too far, maybe wasn't even an accident. And IMO, after he/she was done, he/she realized JBR was dead, and felt a tiny remorse and covered her with a blanket...or, somebody killed her, left her as was, and somebody else, who cared a little more, later covered her with the blanket. MOO

 

[Whaleshark]

Precisely my point, and if we could establish this, then we could slim down the suspect list.

For sure.

The location of the bowl, does not matter, its its presence that matters. If it had been washed and put away in a cupboard, then we could not call the Ramsey's version of events into question with such confidence. Team Ramsey and all the IDI could suggest that the intruder fed the pineapple to JonBenet?

Well, not really. Because you're going to assume that he brought the pineapple with him, then, and that there was no other pineapple in the house that matched. Just because the bowl would have gotten cleaned out, doesn't mean there wasn't more of the pineapple in the refrigerator. For example, if I have a bowl of ice cream, then clean the bowl and put it away, that doesn't mean there is no more ice cream in my house.... unless I ate the last of it and threw the carton in an unknown trash can, you can guess that there might be more ice cream of the same kind in my freezer?

It's still more likely that she ate it in her house from her own refrigerator, since it was determined that she didn't have any at the White's house...
not because the bowl was cleaned up.

Its presence is significant, yes... but not its location, NOR the fact that it was cleaned up. Yes, it is right in our face, that it's on the table, and is their bowls. If you want to say anything is curious about Patsy's reaction to the pineapple, it's not that she would clean it up if she knew JonBenet had it, even for staging purposes (cuz that's still alot of IFs to assume), but that she denied it was her pineapple and bowl at all...

But again, she was in a predicament, and had to distance herself from obvious things, and we are back to them trying to say their own property isn't their own, so to add doubt as to things moved around, or possibly brought in, by an intruder....

This is the only one that matters, since I am positing PDI.

Again, though, if she knew about it, is one thing, all those other IFs do matter, if you expect that she would have cleaned it up, if she knew about it... depends on why, how much she 'knew', and even if she did, what she would have remembered/considered/wouldn't have forgotten to do, of the staging in the first place.

The same questions could be asked of John, but he never disowned the tableware, and its really Patsy we would expect to prepare a pineapple snack for JonBenet?

Mmmm, let's refresh that shall we? He may not have totally disowned his own dishes, but he sure did deny that the kids would have used THAT bowl, THAT glass, THAT spoon, THAT food, THAT way, or THAT drink (tea) --until he decides that Burke would drink tea...

And he disowned just about anything, and any knowledge of, or any consistent story of, anything else.

JOHN: Well, it's a large spoon, not a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to make it old and there's this teabag in an empty glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is some milk or something.
LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?
JOHN: Well the kids like pineapple, but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and I can't imagine that the kids would have something like that at any time. Certainly not with iced tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah.

MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.
LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag in the glass?
JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea, I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if JonBenet did, if she did. I mean, even for someone who's there and to get out that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.

:banghead:

LOU SMIT: Where would you keep pineapple?
JOHN RAMSEY: If it were opened, it would have been kept in the refrigerator.
LOU SMIT: And that's the walk-in one?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If it were not open, it would be in the pantry. This little (INAUDIBLE) was here with the cans. (INAUDIBLE) next to the cans. I mean it doesn't look like -- the kids wouldn't have gotten that thing and the spoon down. I mean, that's huge for a child's mouth. They would have gotten a little spoon or a fork. They wouldn't have fixed themselves that big a bowl.

JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal for a Kleenex box.
LOU SMIT: What do you say about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess it doesn't belong on the kitchen table. I don't know where it came from, but that's not where it ought to be.

Oh, but it gets better.

This is rich.

LOU SMIT: We don't know. The pineapple is inside her, so we have to figure out how that pineapple got there. There is one way it could get there, she had to eat it at some point.
JOHN RAMSEY: Are you sure it was pineapple?
LOU SMIT: Yes.
JOHN RAMSEY: No question?
LOU SMIT: No question. No question. So that's always been the big bugaboo.
JOHN RAMSEY: What's the -- is there a time line based on where it was in the digestive system?
LOU SMIT: That's always open to people's opinions. But there is various theories it could be anywhere from two hours to more than that. But again, it is in her intestine.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well my -- my amateur reasoning would be that she came home at -- she was in bed, she was asleep before we got home, which was, you know, 9:00, 9:15. I believe she was killed that night.
LOU SMIT: What night?
JOHN RAMSEY: The 25th. If I have my dates right. The 26th, evening of the 26th, rather than early in the morning or the next morning.
__

(Very interesting statements by John regarding the dates, no?)...
__

LOU SMIT: Think about the date.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well okay, the 25th, Christmas Day night. So if you said midnight, that means there is three hours that I would say there is no way she could have eaten any, as -- it's a time mark. I think Patsy -- see that picture, asked to see if that bowl looks like something that would have been in the refrigerator and left out, did JonBenet grab a bite when she left the house, I don't know. But I know as a father and as sound asleep as she was, that she didn't get up, we didn't feed her when we got home. She wouldn't have gotten up, Patsy didn't get up. She would have gotten up to feed her. So that isn't an option in my mind. I mean, it would be -- an intruder drug her down there and tried to feed her something, she would have screamed bloody murder. If she opened her mouth to eat pineapple, she would have screamed bloody murder.
LOU SMIT: But still it's a fact that it's in there. There is nothing that we can do to change that particular fact.
JOHN RAMSEY: I understand.
LOU SMIT: So is there any possibility at all that Patsy could have done that, have gotten up and gone down there?
JOHN RAMSEY: No.
LOU SMIT: Would you have known it if she had?
JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't have known it but she certainly would have said it. I mean, there was no reason she would have denied it. I mean, it would be very easy, if we were trying to hide this, it would be very easy to say oh, yeah, I got up and fed her pineapple, that explains that, then put her back to bed. We didn't. So I --
LOU SMIT: This is why, you know, people think about those things, and especially detectives.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what I -- I guess one of the things that I felt all along is I mean this thing with oh, you know, we found the practice note and ransom note -- the practice ransom note on the pad. If I was setting this up, give me some credit for being smarter than that. You know, would I have handed Linda Arndt the pad that I wrote the practice note on? If we were trying to disguise something, why wouldn't we say oh, yeah, we fed her pineapple before she went to bed, that explains that. We didn't. So I can't -- I don't accept that that happened. If it did, I would have said it or Patsy would have said it. Even if we were guilty, I mean what's the big deal? I mean you know, what I mean, that it didn't happen. I know it didn't happen after she went to bed. So I -- there has to be another answer to that question. Than that she got up in the middle of the night and had a big bowl of pineapple and went back to bed or we got her up. So...
LOU SMIT: Did she ever go out on her own to go down there and eat pineapple?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that she ever did. I don't know. I don't think so.
Not that I remember, ever, at night. She was getting to the point where she was -- she used to be not afraid of the dark or anything at all and then she was getting kind of -- she was growing up a little bit and getting afraid of
the dark and, you know, just kind of normal things that -- that people start to think about. But she wouldn't have been -- I mean, we were out solidly asleep, we were all tired. Christmas is a big day, it's exhausting. I know she was, had to be exhausted.
LOU SMIT: Can you see why we have that concern, though?
JOHN RAMSEY: I can see why you -- you know, this question, where did it come from, but I don't think -- other than the fact that there is this bowl on the table, which I can't -- Patsy needs to look at it to answer that question. But I don't -- it's either very significant if the intruder somehow -- well, that just doesn't make sense. I mean JonBenet was a smart, strong little girl. And if she had the opportunity to scream and to kick and fight, she would have done that. No question in my mind. So I don't buy that, you know, an intruder sat her down and fed her pineapple.
LOU SMIT: That explains how she got that? We have got to figure that out?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
LOU SMIT: I know.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think Patsy needs to see that picture, see if that makes any sense to her, that bowl. It didn't to me. If our kids or if we had prepared food for our kids, we would have given a teaspoon, because there is a whole drawer full of them. It would have been a heaping bowl of pineapple. Just -- if that bowl were in the refrigerator, covered with Saran Wrap or something, it's possible that Patsy would remember that. But I have to look at the picture, I can't see any other explanation -- it looked strange to me. Quite frankly.
___

..Anybody wanna come up for air, just yet -- it's getting deep in here, no?

No, well, good, cuz it gets DEEPER:

JOHN RAMSEY: All right. Bryan chastised me a bit on the way home, he said like you were very adamant that she wouldn't be eating pineapple. What do
you know for sure? I said I know we didn't feed her pineapple. I know I didn't feed her pineapple, I know Patsy didn't feed her pineapple, because she said she didn't. And I was going on track of there is no way of a strange intruder could have gotten her down there without her screaming, kicking and hollering and fed her pineapple. But you asked I think if what if it was someone she knew, and that's conceivable. And --
LOU SMIT: How would you explain it?

Be ready, here comes the SET UP:

JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at the risk of just unfortunately after this case already jumping to the conclusion there was apparently one of JonBenet's friends or parents that day said JonBenet told them that Santa Claus was going to come visit her that night, last night, not the night, I don't know if that's hearsay on my part.
LOU SMIT: Where did you hear it from?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think I heard it from our investigators. I think.
LOU SMIT: Okay?
JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. So let's, if that's true, and if the Santa Claus were somebody she knew, she adored Santa Claus, they had a special relationship. If he was the one, came into her room, as previously promised, she wouldn't have been alarmed, she would have gone downstairs with him, gone wherever he wanted. I don't know why he would have sat down and fed her pineapple, but it's possible.
LOU SMIT: Do you have any ideas who this could be?
JOHN RAMSEY: Bill McReynolds is the only Santa Claus I know. That she knows.
___

And, we have another VICTIM under the bus by a Ramsey to explain the pineapple...
___

JOHN: ...But that's premature, but that would be in my mind explain how, if we said JonBenet ate pineapple between 9 p.m. when she went to bed and when we found her, that is the only way that's plausible to me that she could have eaten. Is someone she knew and trusted and said let's go downstairs, there is a surprise. He might have sat there with pineapple and a glass of tea, I don't know, but --
___

Ready for more?

NEXT: Would Patsy be the only one to get pineapple out for her?

...Not necessarily (assuming, of course, part of this is actually true, and not all Ramsey BS, from their book):

DOI (HB) Page 5:

"While the kids played with their gifts, Patsy and I went to the kitchen to prepare our traditional Christmas morning breakfast of pancakes, bacon, corn beef hash, and hash browns. I usually made the pancakes, so I got all the ingredients together while Patsy set the table and cooked the rest of the breakfast. JonBenet always loved to get into the act and was right under my elbows, standing on a stool by the stove, to help pour the pancake batter. She normally liked to make a Mickey Mouse shape and decorate it at the table with fruit and raisins to make the face come to life, but there wasn't time for that on this Christmas Day. Too many new things to play with. Burke came to the table just long enough to eat a bite. As far as he was concerned, eating got in the way of playing."
___

Sounds like he could have gotten a bowl of pineapple out for her just as easily as Patsy... or Burke could have....
___

Is there really any question here? Anybody? Anybody else?

Tell you what, read that testimony above out loud, and see if it's any less absurd.

All I know is, if this testimony were on CSI or Law and Order SVU, or whatever, he would be put away faster than my dogs can wolf down a package of cheddar cheese - on this testimony and circumstantial evidence alone.

Really, Mr. Ramsey? Are you serious?
I rest my case.

 

[DeeDee249]

That bowl, or an identical one, was seen in a photo on the dining room table the day of the Rs party- the 23rd. I don't know what was in the bowl that day, but if it had pineapple in it, it may have been out since then. We've read MANY times that Patsy was well-known to NEVER put anything away, even food. She waited for LHP to do it.

 

[otg]

I have got to disagree with that statement. As the mother of a 9 year old boy once upon a time, I can tell you that they aren't sexual.

It would be nice if all little boys were as good as you believe yours was. It would be nice if they could all be grouped together so it would be known that if one was a certain way, then we would know that all little boys were the same. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

Burke, by all accounts, was interested in football, computer games, and playing with his friends. Every odd or autistic seeming behaviour can easily be explained if once you understand he was having to cope with living with his sisters' MURDERER/S. No wonder the kid withdrew!

Much of the behavior that is discussed here that you seem to object to is behavior that was occurring before his sister's death and therefore is not a reaction to it.

He was a completely normal, undeveloped little boy dealing with a completely abnormal situation. On top of anything else, I doubt he'd even be strong enough to hit his sister hard enough to crack her skull...those things are solid, it isn't like cracking an egg.

I know you've probably cracked a few eggs in your life, SS, but do you really know about how much force is needed to crack the skull of a child? Do you know that at birth, a baby's neurocranium is made up of eight separate bones which continue growing and fusing together to form the braincase. I'm sure you know about the "soft spot" in a baby's skull -- the anterior fontanel. It is the last area to close up with bone, but the "sutures" continue fusing into adulthood, and ossification isn't complete on the last of these until about the age of 60.

So you see, SS, with all these weak areas in a child's skull, it really doesn't take a great deal of force to crack it open. And with the right device, it doesn't take a very strong person to cause a dent in the relatively thin, still growing and ossifying skull of a six-year-old child, despite what a lot of people seem to believe.

Even if he was possessed by inner sexual demons at the grand old age of 9, or a victim himself...hurting his sister like that implies a cruelty that is not normal, especially in one who knows how it feels and loved his sister, by ALL accounts. I would expect him to have gone on to hurt others, or torture animals, not become the seemingly normal, popular, heterosexual, successful and well balanced (if resolutely silent) young man he has become. :dunno:

I don't condemn him for what I feel happened. I believe JonBenet died as a result of an accident that happened while he was acting out in a way that was apparently much more common than either you or I would want to believe. I do condemn the parents for making the decisions they made about how they chose to raise their children, and how they chose to react in bad situations. It is my understanding that he has gotten lots of counseling over the years. I hope so, and I truly hope he has benefited from it.

Burke IS the odd one out. He was the only one who is not a psychopath. I think it is entirely likely that the adult Burke has blocked the entire incident from his mind, from beginning to end. Kids work like that. He shut it off to survive, and it worked. Kids have to believe in their parents. I strongly suspect he was NOT a victim of whatever game was going on in that house, was adored and protected by his mother. JBR was not.

I see an unhealthy mother/daughter dynamic, an unhealthy father/daughter and father/mother dynamic too. But Burke seems to have escaped relatively unscathed. If this is the case, I would expect it to rear its ugly head again in time...you can't bury something like that forever.

As always just my opinion.:moo:

I hope you're right, SS.

​

.

 

[dodie20]

wow, JR's own words, never fail to freak me out. Him going on about JBR screaming bloody murder, kicking, hollering...and then him saying, 'she used to not be scared of anything At All, she was growing up a little bit and getting afraid of the dark and you know, just kind of normal things that--that people start to think about'. What??? JR didn't know if JBR drank tea or not, but he knew her thoughts? and what 'normal' things, exactly, Was she thinking about? And him going on about how exhausted everybody was, including JBR, reminded me of the ransom note, kwim? and his use of the word, ' hollering', reminds of southern slang. I'm a Texan, and use the word, hollering. What struck me though, is how his language, switched back and forth. He used the words screaming and hollering, whereas most people stick with 1. moo. Also, his description of the traditional Christmas breakfast, bugs me. Him saying, JBR normally liked to decorate her pancakes with fruit, but there wasn't time This day, doesn't make sense. This was a special day, with a special breakfast, that she helped prepare. I do believe she would have finished the tradition, by decorating her pancakes with Fruit...which he might have gotten out and put in a pretty bowl with a nice spoon, because like he said, he was in charge of the pancakes. MOO

 

[OpenMind4U]

BBM.. Lol.. Thanks! I am confused. Not about how I feel about the case but by all the information and trying to figure what is real and what is not.

For me it goes back to day 1. I just don't see them coming home from a Christmas party and killing their child. Not for a minute. What could have provoked such a thing? I think there are a lot of theories that grasp at straws. I think people want to wrap it in a neat bow, but I don't see it. The only thing that makes sense to me is an intruder.

Good question! I'm sure this murder wasn't planned, premeditated. Ramsey was planning to start vacation in the morning, celebrating PR B-day, having fun on Disney's Red Boat cruise with ALL family. It was the X-mas time, the best holiday season! Perfect vacation for the perfect family. Or it wasn't so 'perfect' family? Let's see the FACTS.
- JBR was found with broken head. Cracked, almost split in the half. This blow was done with such an enormous power by the person under some kind of rage. But this wasn't cause of her death;
- The strangulation with the robe has killed her. Ugly constructed double loop 'garrote-like' was applied to her neck UNPROFESSIONALLY; Worse...
- The time between the head blow and actual death is aprox 90 min = 1 1/2 hours!!! Someone was waiting and waiting and waiting....before finally killing JBR;
- JBR was found to be sexually assaulted with ACUTE damage, digitally penetrated (means, just before she dies - the painful sexual act has been performed). Worse...
- during the closer examination, it was agreed by many experts that JBR has been molested previously, indicating the changes in her vagina consistent with the CHRONIC molestation by digital penetration(means, she was molested many times, way before her actual death and with no penis);
- RN was found to point to 'kidnapping' due to some kind of vendetta. The note was written UNPROFESSIONALLY, in handwriting, long and silly.Of course, it was a lie because no 'kidnapping' was taken place that night. JBR was found death in her own basement.

So, here is your Ramsey's perfect family 'imperfections':
- someone is the MOLESTER;
- someone is capable of uncontrollable RAGE;
- someone is LIAR.

No stranger was in the house that night; no other relatives was staying in Ramsey's house that night; every Ramsey's member claims that they were a sleep and didn't hear anything that night. Now, you tell me what's wrong with this picture??? When you'll see what's wrong (again, please use all the FACTS, read all Ramsey's lies, review every available today evidences) - you'll have an answer to 'what could have provoked such a thing?'. I couldn't help you more...

 

[txsvicki]

If jonbebet had had a green paint chip on her chin that could indicate that all her injuries took place right there by the paint tote and no one ever tried to revive her. Golf clubs sitting nearby, the fracture looks like the club, she was hit from behind, possibly sitting or just getting up, the paint chips and broken brush, the cord, and the train tracks right there nearby. Someone had to break the paintbrush first or grab it . They had to jab her face up? Then turn her over to get the cord around the neck. All that supposed staging but didn't know for sure the extent of the head injury and didn't even wipe her face or disturb the paint chip on her chin after doing all this and getting her in the blanket and into the wine room. If a kid hit her in the head out of anger that is assault and manslaughter but if someone else put the garrotte that is first degree muder because noone could know the extent of injury without medical help.

 

[LinasK]

IM curious...

I am sure many of you are aware of the timeline that started once LE arrived at the scene.

Im just curious if any of you have tried to put yourself in R's shoes. NOT from a cover up stand point but from an innocent, " my child is missing and Im freaking out " POV.

To really ponder how you feel or how you think you would act?

I was thinking of something that was said in the thread about little Max.
About not presuming how people act when they grieve for their children or react when they find out they are dead or have no chance of recovery.

Just wondering..

If I received that ransom note stating not to notify the authorities, I would NOT send my son away to neighbor's house, invite all my friends over and call the police...

 

[txsvicki]

About the christmas morning breakfast: i noticed john really describing the menu and how he and patsy always made corned beef hash with fried potatoes. Patsy didn't even mention the menu or the tradition. Maybe she knew the pineapple was out on a counter. They ate around 10 or 11 a.m. according to john and she didn't really mention that either. Also, if the kids got up really early why would they wait hours to cook the traditional breakfast. I figure the kids were tired at 9:30 but not ready for bed because patsy was in no hurry to get home. Not that she ever seemed to pay attention to that sort of thing though.

 

[SapphireSteel]

It would be nice if all little boys were as good as you believe yours was. It would be nice if they could all be grouped together so it would be known that if one was a certain way, then we would know that all little boys were the same. Unfortunately, that is not the case.

Much of the behavior that is discussed here that you seem to object to is behavior that was occurring before his sister's death and therefore is not a reaction to it.

I know you've probably cracked a few eggs in your life, SS, but do you really know about how much force is needed to crack the skull of a child? Do you know that at birth, a baby's neurocranium is made up of eight separate bones which continue growing and fusing together to form the braincase. I'm sure you know about the "soft spot" in a baby's skull -- the anterior fontanel. It is the last area to close up with bone, but the "sutures" continue fusing into adulthood, and ossification isn't complete on the last of these until about the age of 60.

So you see, SS, with all these weak areas in a child's skull, it really doesn't take a great deal of force to crack it open. And with the right device, it doesn't take a very strong person to cause a dent in the relatively thin, still growing and ossifying skull of a six-year-old child, despite what a lot of people seem to believe.

I don't condemn him for what I feel happened. I believe JonBenet died as a result of an accident that happened while he was acting out in a way that was apparently much more common than either you or I would want to believe. I do condemn the parents for making the decisions they made about how they chose to raise their children, and how they chose to react in bad situations. It is my understanding that he has gotten lots of counseling over the years. I hope so, and I truly hope he has benefited from it.

I hope you're right, SS.

​

.

So nice you took the time to so thoroughly critique my opinion and ALSO follow it up with a picture of the adult Burke (I assume) looking....what....evil?

:lol:

His behaviour both as a child, and as an adult, DOES NOT fit that of a psychopath, no matter how many unfortunate photos you post.

His parents behaviour, on the other hand, does.

By the way JBR was not a baby, and her fontanelle had closed years earlier, like all normal children. The sutures are closed by age 2 and the skull itself stops growing around age 7. The bone of the human skull is nearly 1cm thick from childhood. They are like bowling balls. You can break them but it takes a POWERFUL blow. This is why skulls are almost always intact when recovered say, from a burial site or a murder scene.

Earlier studies have addressed the human total cranial vault thickness and generally found no correlation with sex, age or body weight.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1351187/

 

[dodie20]

Good question! I'm sure this murder wasn't planned, premeditated. Ramsey was planning to start vacation in the morning, celebrating PR B-day, having fun on Disney's Red Boat cruise with ALL family. It was the X-mas time, the best holiday season! Perfect vacation for the perfect family. Or it wasn't so 'perfect' family? Let's see the FACTS.
- JBR was found with broken head. Cracked, almost split in the half. This blow was done with such an enormous power by the person under some kind of rage. But this wasn't cause of her death;
- The strangulation with the robe has killed her. Ugly constructed double loop 'garrote-like' was applied to her neck UNPROFESSIONALLY; Worse...
- The time between the head blow and actual death is aprox 90 min = 1 1/2 hours!!! Someone was waiting and waiting and waiting....before finally killing JBR;
- JBR was found to be sexually assaulted with ACUTE damage, digitally penetrated (means, just before she dies - the painful sexual act has been performed). Worse...
- during the closer examination, it was agreed by many experts that JBR has been molested previously, indicating the changes in her vagina consistent with the CHRONIC molestation by digital penetration(means, she was molested many times, way before her actual death and with no penis);
- RN was found to point to 'kidnapping' due to some kind of vendetta. The note was written UNPROFESSIONALLY, in handwriting, long and silly.Of course, it was a lie because no 'kidnapping' was taken place that night. JBR was found death in her own basement.

So, here is your Ramsey's perfect family 'imperfections':
- someone is the MOLESTER;
- someone is capable of uncontrollable RAGE;
- someone is LIAR.

No stranger was in the house that night; no other relatives was staying in Ramsey's house that night; every Ramsey's member claims that they were a sleep and didn't hear anything that night. Now, you tell me what's wrong with this picture??? When you'll see what's wrong (again, please use all the FACTS, read all Ramsey's lies, review every available today evidences) - you'll have an answer to 'what could have provoked such a thing?'. I couldn't help you more...

I'll tell you something else that could have provoked trouble. It was Christmas. For all of you who have happy memories of the hollidays, you're lucky, but some of us aren't so lucky. I don't remember 1 single Christmas, that didn't end in a screaming match and tears. And this followed me into adulthood. I feel such stress, that I literally put up the tree the day before Christmas eve, and take it down the day after Christmas. The less holiday spirit in my house, the better. Yes, I make sure my kids have nice holidays, but I keep the hooplah, to a minimum. Some people can't deal with the stress. I saw a Jimmy Kimmel video, where one kid was so distraught over a perceived gift, that he screamed, cried, threw a tantrum, called his parents 'stinking parents', and said he hated them. Kids are materialistic, and there's no way a parent can give them everything they want. It's a losing battle, and does nothing but cause stress. And adults are no better. They sit around drinking, thinking bitter thoughts, and then take their anger out on their kids. Like I said, not all families are like this, but a lot are. Something about the holidays brings on depression, and it's almost impossible, for some people to avoid. It just creeps ups, and then BAM!!! a huge family fight ensues. I'll never spend another holiday with my mother, because she gets just plain evil. You wouldn't believe how busy the cops in this area are, during the holidays, and most of the problems are family related. After Christmas, go out and look at all the 'shell shocked' victims...people who can't believe they survived another year. moo,

 

[UKGuy]

For sure.



Well, not really. Because you're going to assume that he brought the pineapple with him, then, and that there was no other pineapple in the house that matched. Just because the bowl would have gotten cleaned out, doesn't mean there wasn't more of the pineapple in the refrigerator. For example, if I have a bowl of ice cream, then clean the bowl and put it away, that doesn't mean there is no more ice cream in my house.... unless I ate the last of it and threw the carton in an unknown trash can, you can guess that there might be more ice cream of the same kind in my freezer?

It's still more likely that she ate it in her house from her own refrigerator, since it was determined that she didn't have any at the White's house...
not because the bowl was cleaned up.

Its presence is significant, yes... but not its location, NOR the fact that it was cleaned up. Yes, it is right in our face, that it's on the table, and is their bowls. If you want to say anything is curious about Patsy's reaction to the pineapple, it's not that she would clean it up if she knew JonBenet had it, even for staging purposes (cuz that's still alot of IFs to assume), but that she denied it was her pineapple and bowl at all...

But again, she was in a predicament, and had to distance herself from obvious things, and we are back to them trying to say their own property isn't their own, so to add doubt as to things moved around, or possibly brought in, by an intruder....



Again, though, if she knew about it, is one thing, all those other IFs do matter, if you expect that she would have cleaned it up, if she knew about it... depends on why, how much she 'knew', and even if she did, what she would have remembered/considered/wouldn't have forgotten to do, of the staging in the first place.



Mmmm, let's refresh that shall we? He may not have totally disowned his own dishes, but he sure did deny that the kids would have used THAT bowl, THAT glass, THAT spoon, THAT food, THAT way, or THAT drink (tea) --until he decides that Burke would drink tea...

And he disowned just about anything, and any knowledge of, or any consistent story of, anything else.

JOHN: Well, it's a large spoon, not a teaspoon. It looks like Patsy's good silver. I guess that could be pineapple, I can't tell. But it could be. Some people (INAUDIBLE) pineapple to make it old and there's this teabag in an empty glass. I can't tell, but it looks like there is some milk or something.
LOU SMIT: Who do you know would eat pineapple like that? Do you have any idea?
JOHN: Well the kids like pineapple, but that's a big bowl and this is a big spoon and I can't imagine that the kids would have something like that at any time. Certainly not with iced tea, I don't think. They don't even drink iced tea. I think they do not. (INAUDIBLE) yeah.

MIKE KANE: Do you recognize the bowl?
JOHN RAMSEY: Oh, I don't know. I recognize the spoon, because it's a big serving spoon. It's not like a teaspoon. And that could be one of our bowls. We had white bowls like that. Patsy would recognize it for sure. It looks like our glass.
LOU SMIT: Who would drink tea with a teabag in the glass?
JOHN RAMSEY: Somebody who would drink tea, I guess. I don't know. I don't drink tea. Burke will drink sweet ice tea. I don't remember if JonBenet did, if she did. I mean, even for someone who's there and to get out that big of a bowl and put that much pineapple in it and just leave it. That doesn't make sense.

:banghead:

LOU SMIT: Where would you keep pineapple?
JOHN RAMSEY: If it were opened, it would have been kept in the refrigerator.
LOU SMIT: And that's the walk-in one?
JOHN RAMSEY: Right. If it were not open, it would be in the pantry. This little (INAUDIBLE) was here with the cans. (INAUDIBLE) next to the cans. I mean it doesn't look like -- the kids wouldn't have gotten that thing and the spoon down. I mean, that's huge for a child's mouth. They would have gotten a little spoon or a fork. They wouldn't have fixed themselves that big a bowl.

JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah. It looks like it. This was like in -- Patsy would know. I'm not sure why a Kleenex box is there either. That's not normal for a Kleenex box.
LOU SMIT: What do you say about that?
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I guess it doesn't belong on the kitchen table. I don't know where it came from, but that's not where it ought to be.

Oh, but it gets better.

This is rich.

LOU SMIT: We don't know. The pineapple is inside her, so we have to figure out how that pineapple got there. There is one way it could get there, she had to eat it at some point.
JOHN RAMSEY: Are you sure it was pineapple?
LOU SMIT: Yes.
JOHN RAMSEY: No question?
LOU SMIT: No question. No question. So that's always been the big bugaboo.
JOHN RAMSEY: What's the -- is there a time line based on where it was in the digestive system?
LOU SMIT: That's always open to people's opinions. But there is various theories it could be anywhere from two hours to more than that. But again, it is in her intestine.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well my -- my amateur reasoning would be that she came home at -- she was in bed, she was asleep before we got home, which was, you know, 9:00, 9:15. I believe she was killed that night.
LOU SMIT: What night?
JOHN RAMSEY: The 25th. If I have my dates right. The 26th, evening of the 26th, rather than early in the morning or the next morning.
__

(Very interesting statements by John regarding the dates, no?)...
__

LOU SMIT: Think about the date.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well okay, the 25th, Christmas Day night. So if you said midnight, that means there is three hours that I would say there is no way she could have eaten any, as -- it's a time mark. I think Patsy -- see that picture, asked to see if that bowl looks like something that would have been in the refrigerator and left out, did JonBenet grab a bite when she left the house, I don't know. But I know as a father and as sound asleep as she was, that she didn't get up, we didn't feed her when we got home. She wouldn't have gotten up, Patsy didn't get up. She would have gotten up to feed her. So that isn't an option in my mind. I mean, it would be -- an intruder drug her down there and tried to feed her something, she would have screamed bloody murder. If she opened her mouth to eat pineapple, she would have screamed bloody murder.
LOU SMIT: But still it's a fact that it's in there. There is nothing that we can do to change that particular fact.
JOHN RAMSEY: I understand.
LOU SMIT: So is there any possibility at all that Patsy could have done that, have gotten up and gone down there?
JOHN RAMSEY: No.
LOU SMIT: Would you have known it if she had?
JOHN RAMSEY: I wouldn't have known it but she certainly would have said it. I mean, there was no reason she would have denied it. I mean, it would be very easy, if we were trying to hide this, it would be very easy to say oh, yeah, I got up and fed her pineapple, that explains that, then put her back to bed. We didn't. So I --
LOU SMIT: This is why, you know, people think about those things, and especially detectives.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, what I -- I guess one of the things that I felt all along is I mean this thing with oh, you know, we found the practice note and ransom note -- the practice ransom note on the pad. If I was setting this up, give me some credit for being smarter than that. You know, would I have handed Linda Arndt the pad that I wrote the practice note on? If we were trying to disguise something, why wouldn't we say oh, yeah, we fed her pineapple before she went to bed, that explains that. We didn't. So I can't -- I don't accept that that happened. If it did, I would have said it or Patsy would have said it. Even if we were guilty, I mean what's the big deal? I mean you know, what I mean, that it didn't happen. I know it didn't happen after she went to bed. So I -- there has to be another answer to that question. Than that she got up in the middle of the night and had a big bowl of pineapple and went back to bed or we got her up. So...
LOU SMIT: Did she ever go out on her own to go down there and eat pineapple?
JOHN RAMSEY: I don't recall that she ever did. I don't know. I don't think so.
Not that I remember, ever, at night. She was getting to the point where she was -- she used to be not afraid of the dark or anything at all and then she was getting kind of -- she was growing up a little bit and getting afraid of
the dark and, you know, just kind of normal things that -- that people start to think about. But she wouldn't have been -- I mean, we were out solidly asleep, we were all tired. Christmas is a big day, it's exhausting. I know she was, had to be exhausted.
LOU SMIT: Can you see why we have that concern, though?
JOHN RAMSEY: I can see why you -- you know, this question, where did it come from, but I don't think -- other than the fact that there is this bowl on the table, which I can't -- Patsy needs to look at it to answer that question. But I don't -- it's either very significant if the intruder somehow -- well, that just doesn't make sense. I mean JonBenet was a smart, strong little girl. And if she had the opportunity to scream and to kick and fight, she would have done that. No question in my mind. So I don't buy that, you know, an intruder sat her down and fed her pineapple.
LOU SMIT: That explains how she got that? We have got to figure that out?
JOHN RAMSEY: Yeah.
LOU SMIT: I know.
JOHN RAMSEY: Well, I think Patsy needs to see that picture, see if that makes any sense to her, that bowl. It didn't to me. If our kids or if we had prepared food for our kids, we would have given a teaspoon, because there is a whole drawer full of them. It would have been a heaping bowl of pineapple. Just -- if that bowl were in the refrigerator, covered with Saran Wrap or something, it's possible that Patsy would remember that. But I have to look at the picture, I can't see any other explanation -- it looked strange to me. Quite frankly.
___

..Anybody wanna come up for air, just yet -- it's getting deep in here, no?

No, well, good, cuz it gets DEEPER:

JOHN RAMSEY: All right. Bryan chastised me a bit on the way home, he said like you were very adamant that she wouldn't be eating pineapple. What do
you know for sure? I said I know we didn't feed her pineapple. I know I didn't feed her pineapple, I know Patsy didn't feed her pineapple, because she said she didn't. And I was going on track of there is no way of a strange intruder could have gotten her down there without her screaming, kicking and hollering and fed her pineapple. But you asked I think if what if it was someone she knew, and that's conceivable. And --
LOU SMIT: How would you explain it?

Be ready, here comes the SET UP:

JOHN RAMSEY: Well, at the risk of just unfortunately after this case already jumping to the conclusion there was apparently one of JonBenet's friends or parents that day said JonBenet told them that Santa Claus was going to come visit her that night, last night, not the night, I don't know if that's hearsay on my part.
LOU SMIT: Where did you hear it from?
JOHN RAMSEY: I think I heard it from our investigators. I think.
LOU SMIT: Okay?
JOHN RAMSEY: Okay. So let's, if that's true, and if the Santa Claus were somebody she knew, she adored Santa Claus, they had a special relationship. If he was the one, came into her room, as previously promised, she wouldn't have been alarmed, she would have gone downstairs with him, gone wherever he wanted. I don't know why he would have sat down and fed her pineapple, but it's possible.
LOU SMIT: Do you have any ideas who this could be?
JOHN RAMSEY: Bill McReynolds is the only Santa Claus I know. That she knows.
___

And, we have another VICTIM under the bus by a Ramsey to explain the pineapple...
___

JOHN: ...But that's premature, but that would be in my mind explain how, if we said JonBenet ate pineapple between 9 p.m. when she went to bed and when we found her, that is the only way that's plausible to me that she could have eaten. Is someone she knew and trusted and said let's go downstairs, there is a surprise. He might have sat there with pineapple and a glass of tea, I don't know, but --
___

Ready for more?

NEXT: Would Patsy be the only one to get pineapple out for her?

...Not necessarily (assuming, of course, part of this is actually true, and not all Ramsey BS, from their book):

DOI (HB) Page 5:

"While the kids played with their gifts, Patsy and I went to the kitchen to prepare our traditional Christmas morning breakfast of pancakes, bacon, corn beef hash, and hash browns. I usually made the pancakes, so I got all the ingredients together while Patsy set the table and cooked the rest of the breakfast. JonBenet always loved to get into the act and was right under my elbows, standing on a stool by the stove, to help pour the pancake batter. She normally liked to make a Mickey Mouse shape and decorate it at the table with fruit and raisins to make the face come to life, but there wasn't time for that on this Christmas Day. Too many new things to play with. Burke came to the table just long enough to eat a bite. As far as he was concerned, eating got in the way of playing."
___

Sounds like he could have gotten a bowl of pineapple out for her just as easily as Patsy... or Burke could have....
___

Is there really any question here? Anybody? Anybody else?

Tell you what, read that testimony above out loud, and see if it's any less absurd.

All I know is, if this testimony were on CSI or Law and Order SVU, or whatever, he would be put away faster than my dogs can wolf down a package of cheddar cheese - on this testimony and circumstantial evidence alone.

Really, Mr. Ramsey? Are you serious?
I rest my case.

Whaleshark,
Thats quite a lot of rhetoric, or hand-waiving, yet it does not seem to advance your position much.

Because you're going to assume that he brought the pineapple with him,

Address yourself to what I assert not what you think!

I said the absence of the pineapple bowl etc, would allow the intruder to be blamed for feeding JonBenet. I said nothing about its source, the intruder might be another external Ramsey relative?

Sounds like he could have gotten a bowl of pineapple out for her just as easily as Patsy... or Burke could have....

Reading John's replies in the interviews, you can almost hear him making stuff up, as he goes along. Possibly with some convoluted reasoning we could arrive at the same conclusion as that of Patsy, e.g. if he was involved in the staging, he should have cleaned up the breakfast bar also?

I suspect that the parents were ignorant regarding some and possibly all of JonBenet's actions prior to her death.



.

 

[UKGuy]

That bowl, or an identical one, was seen in a photo on the dining room table the day of the Rs party- the 23rd. I don't know what was in the bowl that day, but if it had pineapple in it, it may have been out since then. We've read MANY times that Patsy was well-known to NEVER put anything away, even food. She waited for LHP to do it.

DeeDee249,
Well, well. So why did Patsy not cite this as an explanation. Instead of denying ownership, similarly with John parodying her position?

Its a small detail in a big case, technically the R's dont need to cleanup, we cannot prove much from it, but not removing a visible element that contradicts their own version of events, is curious.

It suggests the possibility, to me at least, that they were ignorant?


.

 

[UKGuy]

About the christmas morning breakfast: i noticed john really describing the menu and how he and patsy always made corned beef hash with fried potatoes. Patsy didn't even mention the menu or the tradition. Maybe she knew the pineapple was out on a counter. They ate around 10 or 11 a.m. according to john and she didn't really mention that either. Also, if the kids got up really early why would they wait hours to cook the traditional breakfast. I figure the kids were tired at 9:30 but not ready for bed because patsy was in no hurry to get home. Not that she ever seemed to pay attention to that sort of thing though.

txsvicki,
Interesting points. DeeDee249 thinks the pineapple bowl could have been there from the party on the 23rd, why not?

Also, if the kids got up really early why would they wait hours to cook the traditional breakfast.

I agree, they would have been tucking into whatever was available in the kitchen. Does this suggest Burke might function, on occassions, as Head Chef?

Possibly its the condensed milk that is the variable. Could the bowl have been on the table containing fresh pineapple, but on the night of the 24th, JonBenet simply added condensed milk?

I reckon the R's were ignorant about whatever JonBenet did in the kitchen that night, since as you suggest, they were probably left to their own devices?


.

 

[Whaleshark]

Whaleshark,
Thats quite a lot of rhetoric, or hand-waiving, yet it does not seem to advance your position much.

Uh, ok then. Most of that was John's testimony, not my rhetoric, which proves he is pretty much all over the place, but ok...

Address yourself to what I assert not what you think!

Pretty much thought I was addressing the things you are asserting, but whatevs.

I said the absence of the pineapple bowl etc, would allow the intruder to be blamed for feeding JonBenet. I said nothing about its source, the intruder might be another external Ramsey relative?

I know that's what you said.. But she could just have easily got a piece of the pineapple by opening the refrigerator door and getting a piece, whether or not the bowl was out on the table.

I don't think it's easier that an intruder would be blamed if the bowl was not out. Pineapple is still in the house, and was the point I was making about having ice cream, earlier (which you called rhetoric, I guess)...

And even John Ramsey said that he didn't buy that an intruder would have taken her and fed her pineapple because she would have screamed bloody murder, and she wouldn't have eaten with him, so the only way he accounts for it, is that it had to be someone she knew - because he is F'D by the timeline of the pineapple in her stomach when she was not supposed to be up... He knows he is screwed.

Reading John's replies in the interviews, you can almost hear him making stuff up, as he goes along.

Pretty much. Cuz he's screwed by the pineapple. He even asks if they are really sure it's pineapple in her stomach, then asks if there is a digestive timeline, says he knows she would not have gone and eaten with an intruder, and then says several times it just doesn't make sense.

He's screwed by the pineapple in her stomach.

Possibly with some convoluted reasoning we could arrive at the same conclusion as that of Patsy, e.g. if he was involved in the staging, he should have cleaned up the breakfast bar also?

Perhaps, but it doesn't change that she ate it. He is still going to be asked about the pineapple in her stomach, because it's there, even if the bowl is not out. The rest of the pineapple in the house, if there is still some, is going to be matched to what's in her stomach. Even if there was no more pineapple left in her house to match what's in her stomach, and the bowl is not left out, they are going to be asked about how she ate it -- which he was --asked about the fact that she had it in her stomach and how she came to eat it in the first place... It's still going to be highly unlikely that a stranger brought pineapple with him, but if there is none in the house at all, yes, it would be 'easier' to deny, because they could say they had no pineapple like that at all - but it would have to not be in the house, though...

I suspect that the parents were ignorant regarding some and possibly all of JonBenet's actions prior to her death.

Well, yes of course, when you're considering BDI and they don't know what all they need to cover up for, and what will screw them, as evidence and information contradicts them...

 

[otg]

So nice you took the time to so thoroughly critique my opinion and ALSO follow it up with a picture of the adult Burke (I assume) looking....what....evil?

:lol:

His behaviour both as a child, and as an adult, DOES NOT fit that of a psychopath, no matter how many unfortunate photos you post.

His parents behaviour, on the other hand, does.

I have never said that he or his parents were "psychopaths". I am not qualified to make that kind of determination. Nor am I (or you) able to predict with any certainty how someone's life will turn out, or whether they will do any of the things later in life that they might have done earlier. I am qualified though to express my opinion on who I feel is responsible for different things that happened in this case. But when I do, I base my opinions on what the evidence tells me -- not because I just don't want to believe a certain theory, or because "according to ALL accounts" this person was normal or was too weak to even swing a bat.

I didn't want to respond to your post, SS, and I certainly didn't want to pick an argument. But after years of not being able to even discuss these possibilities without upsetting so many people, someone who has seen the actual evidence has written a book implying this is the most likely scenario. I'm tired of people discounting this because they don't want to believe it, because they think children just couldn't do something like that, because their 9-year-old would never do it, because he was just to weak to cause that kind of injury, because he was so frail, and so nice, and so normal, and whatever...(I've heard it all!)

By the way JBR was not a baby, and her fontanelle had closed years earlier, like all normal children. The sutures are closed by age 2 and the skull itself stops growing around age 7. The bone of the human skull is nearly 1cm thick from childhood. They are like bowling balls. You can break them but it takes a POWERFUL blow. This is why skulls are almost always intact when recovered say, from a burial site or a murder scene.

Earlier studies have addressed the human total cranial vault thickness and generally found no correlation with sex, age or body weight.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1351187/

Sorry, SS, I didn't say JonBenet had an open anterior fontanel. I was using that to explain how the braincase is formed, and how it continues to have a certain amount of plasticity well into adulthood. I am not in the medical field, but I can understand what I read, and I'm afraid you're mistaken about a skull not growing beyond the age of seven. You are also mistaken about the article you cited above even being germane to the topic. (You should have read the article before you posted it.)

I apologize in advance if you have taken offense at any of this. I won't be responding to you any more.
.