Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[DeeDee249]

I need your help, guys. ...just thinking outside of the 'box'. I know that JAR has been 'cleared'...but somehow I feel like I'm missing piece to make the whole picture (or maybe I'm trying to artificially fill-out the holes...Anyway, here are my thoughts:

-JAR has the key to Ramsey house. JR has confirmed that (read JR deposition in regards of broken basement window);
-JAR was the one who said that JR mention that he found JBR at 11:00am (versa 1:00pm, 2 hours difference);
-JAR feels that whoever done the harm to JBR intitled to 'forgiveness';
-JAR's main 'alibi' is the video from ATM at 9:00pm on December 25 in ATLANTA, GA.

The TIME difference between the Time Zones in Atlanta GA and Boulder CO in winter time is 2 hours!!!! So, when JAR has alibi at 9:00pm in Atlanta - Boulder time was only 7:00pm evening. I know, I know - I probably looking for miracle in this maze...but just wondering, the young guy from college could probably have some fake ID (at the minimum to get to the bar for drink. Thanks God my daughters have passed this 21 year old -itch. But I do remember all sort of fake ID's during their college years to be able to get to the bar and have the 'legal' drink....And 1996 was way before 9/11 happens...means, security at the airport was not that strong...so, maybe it's possible that JAR could use the fake ID to buy the plane ticket. He would have plenty time (thanks to time zone difference!!!!) to be at Ramsey's house and back 'on-time' to meet his sister in Atlanta....and therefore, possibly, when his father called next day to tell about JBR - JAR by mistake didn't calculate the time right. This 2 hours difference could confused him....Am I crazy??? (if yes, please be gentle

Remember- legally- NO one has been "cleared". Lacy made that ridiculous comment but she had no legal right to do so. No one can be cleared in an UNSOLVED murder, especially anyone who was (or may have been) in the house at the time or anyone with regular access to a sexually assaulted dead child. While JAR (as well as many others) may have been ruled out from SOME aspects of the case (author of the ransom note for one), he was allegedly seen walking into the house that day (or was it the day before?) by neighbor (the late) Joe Barnhill, who knew him well and was unlikely to make a mistake. The R lawyers obviously got to him (as they did with Melanie Stanton, who heard the scream), and he said that he "could have mistaken someone else for him". But I have to wonder what another young man of that age would be doing walking into the R house. I am sure he had friends from the campus over at times, but I doubt they'd come if he wasn't there. This sighting was while the family were at home, I believe, and it was broad daylight.
JR had access to private planes and was not required to file flight plans for a plane of that size. There would have been no public record of commercial flights that JAR might have been on.
I was always suspicious of JR getting an lawyer for his first wife, JAR's mother. She was in Georgia at the time of the murder and was never a suspect. The only reason I can see for it is he wanted roadblocks between her and LE in Boulder- he wanted to prevent them from getting any Christmas morning photos or other evidence that would have proven JAR was with her that day (as she said he was).

 

[OpenMind4U]

Remember- legally- NO one has been "cleared". Lacy made that ridiculous comment but she had no legal right to do so. No one can be cleared in an UNSOLVED murder, especially anyone who was (or may have been) in the house at the time or anyone with regular access to a sexually assaulted dead child. While JAR (as well as many others) may have been ruled out from SOME aspects of the case (author of the ransom note for one), he was allegedly seen walking into the house that day (or was it the day before?) by neighbor (the late) Joe Barnhill, who knew him well and was unlikely to make a mistake. The R lawyers obviously got to him (as they did with Melanie Stanton, who heard the scream), and he said that he "could have mistaken someone else for him". But I have to wonder what another young man of that age would be doing walking into the R house. I am sure he had friends from the campus over at times, but I doubt they'd come if he wasn't there. This sighting was while the family were at home, I believe, and it was broad daylight.
JR had access to private planes and was not required to file flight plans for a plane of that size. There would have been no public record of commercial flights that JAR might have been on.
I was always suspicious of JR getting an lawyer for his first wife, JAR's mother. She was in Georgia at the time of the murder and was never a suspect. The only reason I can see for it is he wanted roadblocks between her and LE in Boulder- he wanted to prevent them from getting any Christmas morning photos or other evidence that would have proven JAR was with her that day (as she said he was).

Thank you for replying. Yes, I know about the neighbor's statement. Just couldn't get over of the 'stonewalling' by EVERY Ramsey's family member! Such a horror and tragic happens that night and instead of full cooperation with LE they continue hiding behind their lawyers....for almost 16 years! Only in America or maybe in Boulder only?!....

 

[midwest mama]

MM, could you post the link again, I can't get it to work.
Terri

Sure!

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wphVjsMgX-0"]JonBenet Ramsey - Her Story - YouTube[/ame]

I managed to end up with the video embedded, but if you can't get it going, I found the video simply by searching on YouTube, and it's titled JonBenet Ramsey - Her Story Or, you could go back to the other post and copy the address and paste it onto a new page search bar. Then, there's always just typing in the address (which I hate to do - always seem to goof it up)

Hope one of these work for you.:seeya:

 

[UKGuy]

There are four possibilities. JR knew, Patsy knew, both knew, or neither knew.

But based on the fact that both parents tried to distance themselves from everything on that table, the bowl, the pineapple, the tissue box, etc, I'd say they both knew, both were up and about to see it, and Patsy was the one who put it on the table. Doesn't really matter when, the LIE is what makes me believe they knew. They also tried to lie about even having the pineapple in the house, when the rest of it was FOUND in their fridge (what a tidy foreign faction to bring their own pineapple and put the leftovers in the fridge). Patsy danced around the pineapple when LE questioned her, asking "was it canned or fresh?" You can bet that if LE played into her ploy, whatever they answered, she'd have said she only bought the opposite.
The fact remains that JB DID eat the very same pineapple which was both in that bowl and in their fridge. I'd say chances of the parents' not knowing is very slim.

DeeDee249,
What you say, is difficult to disagree with. I'll go for the parents knowing with a high probability, and them not knowing , low, maybe 15% or so.

Yet when faced with the size-12's question, Patsy had a story to tell, no denial here, even when offered the option of saying, "Oh the intruder must have brought those into the house."

And on the pineapple, rather than deny the obvious, they could had suggested, JonBenet must have risen to snack the pineapple, or even blame it on the intruder?

So in the andrenalin rush of staging both parents forgot all about the pineapple snack from the night before?


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[SapphireSteel]

DeeDee249,
What you say, is difficult to disagree with. I'll go for the parents knowing with a high probability, and them not knowing , low, maybe 15% or so.

Yet when faced with the size-12's question, Patsy had a story to tell, no denial here, even when offered the option of saying, "Oh the intruder must have brought those into the house."

And on the pineapple, rather than deny the obvious, they could had suggested, JonBenet must have risen to snack the pineapple, or even blame it on the intruder?

So in the andrenalin rush of staging both parents forgot all about the pineapple snack from the night before?


.

If you assume that the Ramseys DID NOT expect to even be suspects, it makes perfect sense.

Also, PR was tired, it had been a long day followed by...whatever episode...she was up all night and probably exhausted and not thinking all that straight. I also believe her thought processes were addled at the best of times.

 

[DeeDee249]

I don't believe they forgot about the pineapple in an adrenaline rush or any other way. I think they simply never thought it would be discovered in an autopsy. They really weren't thinking about what JB ate that night or whether anyone would even look at her stomach contents or be able to tell what she had eaten or when. And I think they were really surprised when the pineapple became such a big factor in the case.

 

[midwest mama]

I don't believe they forgot about the pineapple in an adrenaline rush or any other way. I think they simply never thought it would be discovered in an autopsy. They really weren't thinking about what JB ate that night or whether anyone would even look at her stomach contents or be able to tell what she had eaten or when. And I think they were really surprised when the pineapple became such a big factor in the case.

If it's possible the pineapple and the tea glass were left out on the table from an earlier time, then couldn't it be possible that JB came downstairs by herself and simply plucked a piece out of the bowl and popped it into her mouth?

But, if the milk had been on it that long also, it might have tasted bad enough that she wouldn't have wanted to swallow it, and probably would have spit it out. If she could have managed to swallow some down, then that would mean no one would have had to have been with her at the time, and any of the in-house family members could have connected with her at any point of time after that, and none of them would have realized she had eaten it.

I, also, have have queasy feelings from the early years about the possibility of JAR being involved, even though that possibility got squashed very early by the powers that be. I remember when the crime was first announced that there was "mention" in our local news of two older brothers, one being home from college. Then after just a short time, there was no more mention of him. However, a suitcase with a semen stained bed linen from his bed, and a Dr Seuss book....?????....... depicted as being part of the crime???????

 

[SapphireSteel]

If it's possible the pineapple and the tea glass were left out on the table from an earlier time, then couldn't it be possible that JB came downstairs by herself and simply plucked a piece out of the bowl and popped it into her mouth?

But, if the milk had been on it that long also, it might have tasted bad enough that she wouldn't have wanted to swallow it, and probably would have spit it out. If she could have managed to swallow some down, then that would mean no one would have had to have been with her at the time, and any of the in-house family members could have connected with her at any point of time after that, and none of them would have realized she had eaten it.

I, also, have have queasy feelings from the early years about the possibility of JAR being involved, even though that possibility got squashed very early by the powers that be. I remember when the crime was first announced that there was "mention" in our local news of two older brothers, one being home from college. Then after just a short time, there was no more mention of him. However, a suitcase with a semen stained bed linen from his bed, and a Dr Seuss book....?????....... depicted as being part of the crime???????

I imagine there would be semen stains present on every single unlaundered sheet of every single young man you could possibly find.

:moo:

 

[Linda7NJ]

I imagine there would be semen stains present on every single unlaundered sheet of every single young man you could possibly find.

:moo:

Mother of a 14 year old boy here....running screaming from this thread now! Lol


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[SapphireSteel]

Mother of a 14 year old boy here....running screaming from this thread now! Lol


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I always changed my sons sheets with my eyes averted.

There are some things a mother just does NOT need to know.

 

[Linda7NJ]

I always changed my sons sheets with my eyes averted.

There are some things a mother just does NOT need to know.

My kid has been doing his own laundry for quite some years now ....and now I have another good reason for it!


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[midwest mama]

I always changed my sons sheets with my eyes averted.

There are some things a mother just does NOT need to know.

I'm with ya on that sheet thing, moms - been there, did that! But my guys' "comforter" as I saw it described, did not end up in a crime scene suitcase in which there has been speculation by posters in forums/blogspots, that perhaps an "intruder" (or, IMHO, anyone else who had access to that suitcase) might have tried to stuff JB into in order to get her body out of the house. Also, thinking that the bed linen that keeps getting described as being inside the suitcase is some sort of top cover of bedding, a molestation of a child could have been perpetrated more easily on top of the bedding. Having to think through this sort of crime with this abuse/molestation evidence included is disgusting, I know, but we all are trying to find needles in haystacks for that one little piece of evidence that can hopefully one day glue this whole thing together.

It is not my intent to cause dismay to anyone personally - just looking for avenues of discovery about case evidence that help make sense of this tragic case. :innocent:

 

[sandover]

Wow -- whoever would have thought this case would not only be solved, but by our current administration:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/romney-murdered-jonbenet-ramsey-new-obama-campaign,29114/

Hope no one minds my posting this -- but we all need a laugh now and then

 

[Intriguing]

I’ve been lurking on these forums for a while and waited for Tricia’s surprise for a good few months and then dropped my ‘hobby’ and just returned today to find the book released. I haven’t read it nor have I read all the intervening threads on forums for a while. However, I felt compelled to post for the first timeas some of the new ‘facts’ Kolar has revealed immediately struck me as self-explanatory. A moment of simple insight struck and as the truth is usually simple and instant, I just wanted to share my opinions with you. I agree that Kolar has laid out the truth even from the few references previous posters have made to extracts.

Firstly, PR’s call to her paediatrician on the fatal and fateful morning seems obvious. Yes he was JB’s doctor and he was aware of her case history. However, Patsy wasn’t phoning about her dead daughter. She phoned the person who probably knew more about children’s legal culpability than anyone else on speed dial that morning. She phoned for his expert opinion on what to do now…with Burke. It doesn’t matter whether or not he had also been seeing Burke; he was aware of the recent history and had to maintain medical confidentiality.

Hypothesis – Burke accidentally killed his sister. What to do next? Doctor advises to remove Burke from the scene as swiftly as possible, also possibly advising that as a child he is not legally culpable. Cue JR’s call to his pilot to have the plane on standby to whisk his son to temporary seclusion in Atlanta. “I have a meeting to go to,” can either sensationally seem like the words of a pre-meditated, cold-blooded murderer or the panicked and ridiculous first thing that sprang into his mind. It’s so ludicrous that it screams the latter.

The second fact that Kolar pointedly reveals is the candy box and the oversized PJ bottoms with skid marks. They appear to be related and a previous poster rightly pointed out that smearing the candy box with faeces, probably wiped directly from Burke’s lightly soiled pyjamas, smacks of an act of childish vengeance.

Why would he do such a thing? Simple – even Patsy told us. He liked chocolates and, as kids are kids, Jon Benet was withholding them from him. Burke wanted to finish his construction project under the Christmas tree but his father curtailed it by ordering bedtime. A nine year old boy can be rather determined and, if he was set on finishing, he probably also wasn’t overly tired when he went to his room. He lay there scheming whilst everyone went to bed, exhausted.

Now, any smart oldest sibling will tell you, that if you’re intent on getting up to mischief and there is the slightest likelihood of getting caught and punished, it’s best to rope in your younger brothers and sisters as accomplices in order to dissipate the blame in the event of discovery. So Burke snuck into Jon Benet’s room and woke her up.

There was some disagreement over her chocolates hence the ‘poo’ retribution which would certainly have made a little girl distressed and likely to squawk. So then, hurriedly comes the bargaining and negotiation. Burke has to calm her down because he has destroyed her candy and he still has to get downstairs to play with his forcibly abandoned present.

Bingo! After a few moments of desperate pleading he does what any child would do to coerce another. Bribery. “I’ve got something much better for you in the kitchen. Hush now – let’s go downstairs.” Cue a light-footed descent of the stairs by the both of them.

Burke daren’t turn on any lights for fear he may wake his parents, so he grabs his flashlight – a natural thing for a boy to do. He settles Jon Benet down on a stool, goes to the fridge and tries to find something suitable as a replacement for her chocolates. Bingo! Pineapple. He could present that as sweeter and better than chocolates and rustles around in a drawer for a spoon. It doesn’t matter to a ten year old how big the spoon is, as long as eating the pineapple will pacify his sister.

John and Patsy didn’t know their daughter had eaten pineapple as they hadn’t fed it to her. Burke had and in the heat of the moment the following morning he failed to mention it. Why should he?

The next stage is pure theory but I think that Jon Benet did start squawking as she realized that the pineapple wasn’t exactly an equitable exchange for her chocolates. Burke panicked and whacked her over the head with the torch.

Then events gather pace…

 

[otg]

(snipped)
Now, any smart oldest sibling will tell you, that if you’re intent on getting up to mischief and there is the slightest likelihood of getting caught and punished, it’s best to rope in your younger brothers and sisters as accomplices in order to dissipate the blame in the event of discovery.

Boy, you're right on that point, Intriguing. And not only does it tend to "dissipate the blame" if caught, but it also makes it less likely the other will "snitch" on you if they too are involved. Been on both ends of that tactic -- I'm a middle child.

And welcome to WS, Intriguing.
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[UKGuy]

The second fact that Kolar pointedly reveals is the candy box and the oversized PJ bottoms with skid marks. They appear to be related and a previous poster rightly pointed out that smearing the candy box with faeces, probably wiped directly from Burke’s lightly soiled pyjamas, smacks of an act of childish vengeance.

Intriguing,
What is telling about the poo information, and I mean very telling is that Steve Thomas failed completely to include this in his PDI, outlined in his book, why so?

Because if those pajama bottoms really are Burkes then how can you use a poo accident to point the finger at Patsy, so it had to be bedwetting instead.

I am looking for evidence that Burke has been deliberately written out of the script: Fleet White is one, and Steve Thomas' PDI is the second.


p.s. Am just going to watch the Olympic Finale, more pop muzak for the masses I guess.



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[DeeDee249]

Boy, you're right on that point, Intriguing. And not only does it tend to "dissipate the blame" if caught, but it also makes it less likely the other will "snitch" on you if they too are involved. Been on both ends of that tactic -- I'm a middle child.

And welcome to WS, Intriguing.
.

Ditto.

One thing, intriguing, where does the sexual assault come into your theory? As we know, there was an assault with penetration (likely digital, according to the coroner) that night, while she was alive (bruising and bleeding) as well as the eroded hymen and other injuries that had to have taken place before that night.
I agree with a BDI accidental whack on the head, but in my theory, he bashed her to shut her up because she screamed during the sexual assault. When the neighbor heard the midnight scream, she described it as a child's scream and it was blood-chilling. A bit more than might be expected if she felt pineapple wasn't a good substitute for chocolates.
As far as that box of chocolates- I am wondering if the feces was accidentally smeared on it- there was feces in a pair of black child's pants, which LE pointed out to Patsy in one of her interviews. She was asked whether these black pants were the black velvet ones JB wore that day. She denied this, saying they were "play pants". As a mom, I do know what she meant- JB would have worn the velvet pants for dress-up, like a party, but not to play in an home or outside. However, it was never established as they went over those photos exactly where the black velvet pants were. There were some dark garments on the spare twin bed in JB's room- a likely place to have put them after undressing her. But we don't know for sure, and we don't know that they were BR's either. I still feel there is a chance the black feces-stained pants may have been the velvet ones.
I have often wondered whether LE took those feces-stained pants into evidence. If not, what became of them? The Rs never went back into that house again. But Patsy's sister filled more than one police cruiser with bags of things from the house while it was still an active crime scene. After the house was released by LE, movers packed it all up and shipped the contents to Atlanta, where the Rs bought another home. I can't imagine the movers packing up those filthy pants.

 

[txsvicki]

The thing about the sexual assault is that it seemed to have been inflicted just before murder with the cord. That would have been about 90 minutes after the head injury. Unless there is more we don't know the sexual assault was done at the last and the autopsy report seems to verify that.

 

[UKGuy]

The thing about the sexual assault is that it seemed to have been inflicted just before murder with the cord. That would have been about 90 minutes after the head injury. Unless there is more we don't know the sexual assault was done at the last and the autopsy report seems to verify that.

txsvicki,
How so? Coroner Meyer refers to both Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration that is pretty unambiguous langauge!

What evidence supports the acute assault happing in any particular timeframe?



.

 

[Linda7NJ]

txsvicki,
How so? Coroner Meyer refers to both Sexual Contact and Digital Penetration that is pretty unambiguous langauge!

What evidence supports the acute assault happing in any particular timeframe?



.

IMO ... Digital penetration would look very much the same as if BR used his penis.


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