Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet?

[Chrishope]

OK, I know you're doing a big post and discussion of FFJ today and I've been over there reading about the window in the train room. If you look in the photos of the shelf in the train room, under the Death on the Nile poster, there is a can of Dr. Pepper. Something like that could break a window and make a mark. Just how big is the hole in the window? Big enough for a mans hand to reach through? At that angle? Without getting cut?

The hole is big enough to put a hand through. Many of us can't register at FFJ (I don't know if registration is closed or one needs a special invite or what) so we may as well discuss it here.

What JR is trying to do about the window is to "unstage" it as a point of entry.

The window well still has dirt/debri that clearly has not been slid across as someone came in on their belly or butt. There is some disturbance, but nothing like we'd see if someone came in that way. The grate is in place, and the spider web on the grate is intact.

When questioned, months after the murder, JR doesn't quite remember the details of how he got in, even though he admits he may have stripped to his underwear and put his shoes back on and kicked the window and slithered into the window well.

JR also can't quite remember why he didn't have a key. He might have driven himself home -in which case he'd have the garage door opener. Then again he may have taken a cab, he doesn't quite recall. The Barnhills had a key, but he supposedly didn't want to wake them. He didn't have the foresight to realize he didn't have his key and call the Barnhills and have them leave a key under the mat.

He may or may not have gained entry to the house through that window on more than one occasion, he doesn't exactly recall.

If I took a cab, didn't have my key, had to stand in my yard taking off my clothes down to my underwear, put my shoes back on, kicked my window out and slithered in through the window well, I'd damn well remember doing it, and how I did it. Especially if I'd done it more than once.

Obviously millionaires don't live through half a Colorado winter with a hole in the window. It's right there in Burke's train room. There are pieces of glass found the morning of the 911 call. If JR broke the window during the summer then 1) it would have been fixed before Christmas, and 2) the glass would have been swept up. LHP doesn't recall the window being broken. (This would be a great question for BR, if we could be sure of an honest answer)

Most likely then, JR broke the window the night of the murder. He had broken it to make it appear an intruder came in that way, but he had not completed the staging when PR made the 911 call.

What JR is doing the morning of the 26th, the morning of the 911 call, is to "unstage" the window as the point of entry. The police see the window and conclude that there is no sign of forced entry. JR knows that no one will believe his incomplete attempt to stage the window as the POE for the intruder, so he makes up the story about breaking it during the summer when he didn't have a key. Otherwise it's going to look like he broke the window to fake an entry point for the fictional kidnapper -which is exactly what he did. He knows the body will be found. He knows if they find the body and he claims the window is where the intruder came in, he's cooked. So he "unstages" by making up a story. He tells FW this so FW won't be suspicious about it. It's not clear if JR tells the cops about this on the morning of the 26th, but by the time they interview him, they ask about the window, so they know about the "I forgot my key" story.

If JR wanted the police and FW to believe an intruder came in through the window the night before, then he obviously would not claim he'd broken the window on a prior occasion.
Even if he wanted the police to think a previously broken window was a perfect opportunity for the kidnapper it's obvious no one came in that way the night before. JR knows this and so "unstages" the window as the POE.


See DocG's analysis starting here for more details.
http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/08/clear-evidence-of-staging-basement.html

 

[UKGuy]

The hole is big enough to put a hand through. Many of us can't register at FFJ (I don't know if registration is closed or one needs a special invite or what) so we may as well discuss it here.

What JR is trying to do about the window is to "unstage" it as a point of entry.

The window well still has dirt/debri that clearly has not been slid across as someone came in on their belly or butt. There is some disturbance, but nothing like we'd see if someone came in that way. The grate is in place, and the spider web on the grate is intact.

When questioned, months after the murder, JR doesn't quite remember the details of how he got in, even though he admits he may have stripped to his underwear and put his shoes back on and kicked the window and slithered into the window well.

JR also can't quite remember why he didn't have a key. He might have driven himself home -in which case he'd have the garage door opener. Then again he may have taken a cab, he doesn't quite recall. The Barnhills had a key, but he supposedly didn't want to wake them. He didn't have the foresight to realize he didn't have his key and call the Barnhills and have them leave a key under the mat.

He may or may not have gained entry to the house through that window on more than one occasion, he doesn't exactly recall.

If I took a cab, didn't have my key, had to stand in my yard taking off my clothes down to my underwear, put my shoes back on, kicked my window out and slithered in through the window well, I'd damn well remember doing it, and how I did it. Especially if I'd done it more than once.

Obviously millionaires don't live through half a Colorado winter with a hole in the window. It's right there in Burke's train room. There are pieces of glass found the morning of the 911 call. If JR broke the window during the summer then 1) it would have been fixed before Christmas, and 2) the glass would have been swept up. LHP doesn't recall the window being broken. (This would be a great question for BR, if we could be sure of an honest answer)

Most likely then, JR broke the window the night of the murder. He had broken it to make it appear an intruder came in that way, but he had not completed the staging when PR made the 911 call.

What JR is doing the morning of the 26th, the morning of the 911 call, is to "unstage" the window as the point of entry. The police see the window and conclude that there is no sign of forced entry. JR knows that no one will believe his incomplete attempt to stage the window as the POE for the intruder, so he makes up the story about breaking it during the summer when he didn't have a key. Otherwise it's going to look like he broke the window to fake an entry point for the fictional kidnapper -which is exactly what he did. He knows the body will be found. He knows if they find the body and he claims the window is where the intruder came in, he's cooked. So he "unstages" by making up a story. He tells FW this so FW won't be suspicious about it. It's not clear if JR tells the cops about this on the morning of the 26th, but by the time they interview him, they ask about the window, so they know about the "I forgot my key" story.

If JR wanted the police and FW to believe an intruder came in through the window the night before, then he obviously would not claim he'd broken the window on a prior occasion.
Even if he wanted the police to think a previously broken window was a perfect opportunity for the kidnapper it's obvious no one came in that way the night before. JR knows this and so "unstages" the window as the POE.


See DocG's analysis starting here for more details.
http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/08/clear-evidence-of-staging-basement.html

Chrishope,

Unstage the window. Why should he do that. Is that not part of his original plan, you know the one where he wrote the ransom note and told Patsy not to diall 911, but she did anyway, because he told her to?

If it was part of some other plan same question arises, why offer an explanation for the broken window if its original purpose was to flag up an intruder entry point?

I reckon the broken window represents the remains of a prior staging?


.

 

[txsvicki]

I forget, did John try to say the window was open or unlatched when he first went to the basement and looked at it? That could be the staging or undoing since there was no way to account for all the glass in the wjndow. Saying that patsy smoking or one of the kids left it unlocked is all they needed even without a hole in the glass or undisturbed spider web. I can believe that it had been broken a few months and not fixed because it wasn't the front part of the home for appearances and socializing. I just don't believe John broke it.

 

[UKGuy]

I forget, did John try to say the window was open or unlatched when he first went to the basement and looked at it? That could be the staging or undoing since there was no way to account for all the glass in the wjndow. Saying that patsy smoking or one of the kids left it unlocked is all they needed even without a hole in the glass or undisturbed spider web. I can believe that it had been broken a few months and not fixed because it wasn't the front part of the home for appearances and socializing. I just don't believe John broke it.

txsvicki,
Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, excerpt

Right before 10:00 A.M., alone, John Ramsey went downstairs to the basement, where Officer French had searched for his daughter. In the room where his son Burke’s train set was kept, Ramsey found a broken open window. He closed it before going back upstairs.

.
.
.
Perfect Murder/Perfect Town, excerpt

John Fernie stayed on the ground floor while Ramsey led Fleet White down to the basement. In Burke’s train room, they looked at the broken window. Ramsey told White that some months ago, he’d found himself locked out of the house and had broken the window, unlatched it, and climbed through

So was it lying unlatched for three months thereby faciltating the entrance of some pedophile intruder, or was that the implied suggestion?

It looks to me as if the R's prepared a staged crime-scene somewhere in the house, then after some reflection decided it needed to be changed?

This led to the Ransom Note and JonBenet along with some crime-scene remnants being dumped into the wine-cellar.

John Ramsey expected JonBenet to be found quickly, i.e. there would be no need for him to pickup the ransom demand from any bank.


.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

JR said that he did reach though the hole with his hand and unlocked the window, so assuming he actually did that, it is possible.
As for the soda can- I suppose it could have broken the window, but it would have been dented or damaged in some way. I'll gave to take a look over there and see what the can looks like.
I suppose you could say that ANYTHING at all could have broken the window- I don't think it was the soda can. If you were outside breaking it, you'd simply pick up a rock. If you were inside...well the basement is crammed with things that could have been used.

I wasn't speaking about that one can. On FFJ there is a discussion about the window and the stain on the wall and thought if someone with a glass of tea and threw it at his sister (in a rage) and that broke the window. Not necessarily on that night but a time before.
I remembered the Dr. Pepper can only because of that.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,

Unstage the window. Why should he do that. Is that not part of his original plan, you know the one where he wrote the ransom note and told Patsy not to diall 911, but she did anyway, because he told her to?

He did it because it was obvious (even to Boulder PD) that no one came in the window.

Staging the window as POE is part of his original plan, yes. But the staging is not complete when PR calls.

If it was part of some other plan same question arises, why offer an explanation for the broken window if its original purpose was to flag up an intruder entry point?

Why indeed. It would be perfect for the boogeyman theory, except it was obvious to the police that the window was not used as an entry/exit point.

Later, when LS came aboard and started pushing the intruder theory -including coming through the window- JR goes along with it. But the morning of the 911 call he's not pushing the intruder came through the window theory one little bit. In fact he's making sure everyone knows he broke the window months earlier. Why would he do that if the window fit the bill?

I reckon the broken window represents the remains of a prior staging?
.

Sure. No doubt about it. The prior incomplete staging of the night before. If the staging was complete (e.g. believable) then he'd have no reason not to let the cops figure the kidnapper came in through the window.

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

Chrishope,

Unstage the window. Why should he do that. Is that not part of his original plan, you know the one where he wrote the ransom note and told Patsy not to diall 911, but she did anyway, because he told her to?

If it was part of some other plan same question arises, why offer an explanation for the broken window if its original purpose was to flag up an intruder entry point?

I reckon the broken window represents the remains of a prior staging?


.

Unstaging Pasty staging?

 

[DeeDee249]

I wasn't speaking about that one can. On FFJ there is a discussion about the window and the stain on the wall and thought if someone with a glass of tea and threw it at his sister (in a rage) and that broke the window. Not necessarily on that night but a time before.
I remembered the Dr. Pepper can only because of that.

This doesn't make much sense to me. The tea glass from that night was still on the table- I doubt anyone would bring a glass of tea into the basement, or drink it outside. Throwing a glass at the window would break the window, but break the glass too.
I do not think BR threw a glass of tea at his sister and I don't think that was what broke the window, whenever it was broken.

 

[midwest mama]

1. Reichenbach conducted an interior inspection of all three floors of the home, including the basement, and he did not notice any credible point of entry that drew his attention. - pg 27 (No mention of chair blocking door to Train Room - no mention of observing a broken, open unlatched window with a suitcase under it.)

2. ....but French was purportedly the second person to inspect the basement after things had stabilized at the scene......and had gone to the basement sometime before the arrival of civilians at the home....French was checking the interior of the home for a possible point of entry or exit that would have been used by a kidnapper(s). (No mention of a chair blocking door to Train Room - no mention of noticing a broken window opened and unlatched, with a suitcase under window) - pg 29-30

There is no report by either of the 2 officers that a broken window with a suitcase under it was observed. These were trained law enforcement officers.

3. F. White looked through the basement withing 15 minutes after arriving at the Ramseys, noticed a window with a broken pane in the Train Room, which was closed but not latched. The Samsonite suitcase was underneath. He spent some time looking for glass, and found a small kernel which he placed on the windowsill. White said he did not mention his tour of the basement to anyone at the time. - pg 84 (There is no mention that at any time later White reported having seen a chair blocking the Train Room door.)

Neither Reichenbach, French, or White mentioned they had placed a chair in front of the Train Room door, blocking the entry. (*) see below


4. When White went down with Ramsey after Arndt suggested they search the house, he said they spent time talking about the window at which time John told him he'd broken it during the summer and that "he had failed to have it repaired." - pg 85

BUT.. In the ST interview in April 1997, this is what he said:
ST: Is there any reason that window went unrepaired?
JR: No. I mean it’s, Patsy usually took care of those things, and I just rarely went to the basement, so it just, I guess, got overlooked. Although she did think that she asked the cleaning lady’s husband to fix it over Thanksgiving when they were doing some repair work there, but I don’t know if that’s ever been confirmed whether he fixed it or not.

The following are statements madeby JR with regard to the trip to the basement to check out a possibility of how someone might have gotten into his house. This trip was made sometime during the time frame just after 10:00 deadline of the ransom call passed, and during the time Arndt 'lost track of JR - between 10:40 and noon.

5. Apr. 1997: Noticed broken window, open about 1/8", he closed and latched - also noticed blue suitcase under window. - pg 260 (No mention of chair blocking door) - pg 260

6. June 1998: (*) JR said he had to move a door from in front of the Train Room door to go in to look it over. ?? He stated the window was open "maybe an inch", and there was a suitcase under the window. - pg 262

7. From "Death of Innocence, published March 2000: "That entry point needs to be looked at...the pane is still broken and the window is open, with a large old Samsonite suitcase sitting under it."
BUT, Here's a quote from JR during an interview with ST about the suitcase:
"Somebody obviously spent some time there, and I guess found their way around the house the same time, but my, I mean my theory is that someone came in through the basement window. Because it was a new Samsonite suitcase also sitting right under the window....

So... Two police officers, before John said he took his trip to the basement in the morning, didn't even mention an open, broken window with a suitcase under it as a possible point of entry, when that's what they were looking for. :notgood:

Then, White says he did see the window, and found a bit of glass, even moved the suitcase around, (don't know if they found his fingerprints on the suitcase later, or anyone's for that matter).

None of those three mention a chair blocking the Train Room Door. Then John says he had to move a chair to get clear entry into the room when he went in. :liar:

And, he told White he'd failed to have it repaired, then later told a detective that was Patsy's job, and didn't know if the repair was done or not.:maddening:

And also had trouble knowing whether it was an old or a new suitcase under the window. :what:

Geesh, John - I'd hate to see what your memory is like now! Have you ever heard of Ginkgo Biloba?:banghead:

 

[midwest mama]

I think all the specialists who reviewed the autopsy concluded that she did not struggle, that she was already unconscious and they all agree the head bash came first. I think the other marks and ligature furrow are there simply because it was tightened more than once.
They also agree that there were no fingernail marks on her neck.

Dr. Spitz' opinion on the sequence of JB's injuries, according the the Kolar book, pg 65 and 66, is just reverse of an opinion I offered earlier. He's the expert, so I guess most would go with his version, though his 'expertise' sometimes takes a bit of harassment these days, due to his testimony in the Simpson case.

But, here's his comment about neck abrasions:

"JonBenet reached up to her neck with her hands to attempt to pull away the collar causing some nail gouges/abrasions with her fingernails on the side of her throat."

And Spitz said this also: The blow would have rendered JonBenet unconscious and accounted for the absence of any additional defensive wounds on her body.

So, Spitz thinks JB did resist the first strangulation, but then was rendered unable by the following blow, and not capable to resist during the third. I still am not sure I agree the ligature was the last strangulation, but, as I said before -- he's the expert, right?

Maybe that accounts for part of Meyer's autopsy findings?

 

[dodie20]

Unstaging Pasty staging?

I have actually considered this, but if JR unstaged a few things for PR, I wonder why he didn't unstage a few more. Didn't he admit to unbinding JB's wrists? Well, wouldn't the 'garrotte' around the neck have been more dire? Honestly, up to a point, (at least until the 911), this case seems like a 1 person show, IMO. And since PR, IMO, wrote the note, I think if anybody did any unstaging, it was JR. If he did though, I don't know when or why. moo

 

[UKGuy]

He did it because it was obvious (even to Boulder PD) that no one came in the window.

Staging the window as POE is part of his original plan, yes. But the staging is not complete when PR calls.



Why indeed. It would be perfect for the boogeyman theory, except it was obvious to the police that the window was not used as an entry/exit point.

Later, when LS came aboard and started pushing the intruder theory -including coming through the window- JR goes along with it. But the morning of the 911 call he's not pushing the intruder came through the window theory one little bit. In fact he's making sure everyone knows he broke the window months earlier. Why would he do that if the window fit the bill?



Sure. No doubt about it. The prior incomplete staging of the night before. If the staging was complete (e.g. believable) then he'd have no reason not to let the cops figure the kidnapper came in through the window.

Chrishope,
Why should John offer any explanation at all? Just leave the BPD to work it all out, John can tell them whatever later? Surely someone might ask was it not cold when you and Burke were playing in that room, after returning from the White's?

The big Q is why did the R's abandon this as an entry point, were they expecting the BPD to assume the intruder had a front door key?


.

 

[UKGuy]

Unstaging Pasty staging?

ILikeToBendPages,
Could be, maybe it is PDI, and John rises early, takes control and vetoes certain staging, including the broken window, and decides on the abduction and wine-cellar relocation?


.

 

[UKGuy]

1. Reichenbach conducted an interior inspection of all three floors of the home, including the basement, and he did not notice any credible point of entry that drew his attention. - pg 27 (No mention of chair blocking door to Train Room - no mention of observing a broken, open unlatched window with a suitcase under it.)

2. ....but French was purportedly the second person to inspect the basement after things had stabilized at the scene......and had gone to the basement sometime before the arrival of civilians at the home....French was checking the interior of the home for a possible point of entry or exit that would have been used by a kidnapper(s). (No mention of a chair blocking door to Train Room - no mention of noticing a broken window opened and unlatched, with a suitcase under window) - pg 29-30

There is no report by either of the 2 officers that a broken window with a suitcase under it was observed. These were trained law enforcement officers.

3. F. White looked through the basement withing 15 minutes after arriving at the Ramseys, noticed a window with a broken pane in the Train Room, which was closed but not latched. The Samsonite suitcase was underneath. He spent some time looking for glass, and found a small kernel which he placed on the windowsill. White said he did not mention his tour of the basement to anyone at the time. - pg 84 (There is no mention that at any time later White reported having seen a chair blocking the Train Room door.)

Neither Reichenbach, French, or White mentioned they had placed a chair in front of the Train Room door, blocking the entry. (*) see below


4. When White went down with Ramsey after Arndt suggested they search the house, he said they spent time talking about the window at which time John told him he'd broken it during the summer and that "he had failed to have it repaired." - pg 85

BUT.. In the ST interview in April 1997, this is what he said:
ST: Is there any reason that window went unrepaired?
JR: No. I mean it’s, Patsy usually took care of those things, and I just rarely went to the basement, so it just, I guess, got overlooked. Although she did think that she asked the cleaning lady’s husband to fix it over Thanksgiving when they were doing some repair work there, but I don’t know if that’s ever been confirmed whether he fixed it or not.

The following are statements madeby JR with regard to the trip to the basement to check out a possibility of how someone might have gotten into his house. This trip was made sometime during the time frame just after 10:00 deadline of the ransom call passed, and during the time Arndt 'lost track of JR - between 10:40 and noon.

5. Apr. 1997: Noticed broken window, open about 1/8", he closed and latched - also noticed blue suitcase under window. - pg 260 (No mention of chair blocking door) - pg 260

6. June 1998: (*) JR said he had to move a door from in front of the Train Room door to go in to look it over. ?? He stated the window was open "maybe an inch", and there was a suitcase under the window. - pg 262

7. From "Death of Innocence, published March 2000: "That entry point needs to be looked at...the pane is still broken and the window is open, with a large old Samsonite suitcase sitting under it."
BUT, Here's a quote from JR during an interview with ST about the suitcase:
"Somebody obviously spent some time there, and I guess found their way around the house the same time, but my, I mean my theory is that someone came in through the basement window. Because it was a new Samsonite suitcase also sitting right under the window....

So... Two police officers, before John said he took his trip to the basement in the morning, didn't even mention an open, broken window with a suitcase under it as a possible point of entry, when that's what they were looking for. :notgood:

Then, White says he did see the window, and found a bit of glass, even moved the suitcase around, (don't know if they found his fingerprints on the suitcase later, or anyone's for that matter).

None of those three mention a chair blocking the Train Room Door. Then John says he had to move a chair to get clear entry into the room when he went in. :liar:

And, he told White he'd failed to have it repaired, then later told a detective that was Patsy's job, and didn't know if the repair was done or not.:maddening:

And also had trouble knowing whether it was an old or a new suitcase under the window. :what:

Geesh, John - I'd hate to see what your memory is like now! Have you ever heard of Ginkgo Biloba?:banghead:

midwest mama,
Lots of interesting points here. It looks as if Reichenbach and French simply missed the broken window, particularly when Fleet White notes it.

I reckon its possible that JR was telling the truth and he was wanting the broken window highlighted as a potential entry point?

I mean my theory is that someone came in through the basement window. Because it was a new Samsonite suitcase also sitting right under the window....

Sure, now John can you please tell us what is the association between the suitcase and the broken window that allows you to assert that the intruder entered through it?

Why a suitcase, why not a chair under the window?


.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Why should John offer any explanation at all? Just leave the BPD to work it all out, John can tell them whatever later? Surely someone might ask was it not cold when you and Burke were playing in that room, after returning from the White's?

The big Q is why did the R's abandon this as an entry point, were they expecting the BPD to assume the intruder had a front door key?

Right. If they want the cops to think the window was the entry point, then why offer any explanation. Probably because the window doesn't look like an entry point despite the broken pane of glass. Once the body is found even the Boulder cops might have combined a dead body with an obviously fake entry point and decided the parents did it.

John did offer an explanation. We can't get away from that. Might have been better if he hadn't, but he did.

John is really downplaying the "forced entry" angle on the morning of the 26th. If he wants the cops to think the kidnapper(s) came in during the night he should be pushing as many possible points of entry as he can. He could easily have unlocked a door or two, telling police he forgot to check them the night before. But he doesn't. Instead he is careful to tell the cops all the doors were locked. The police verify this.

Then he says he broke the window himself during the summer. He doesn't actually say the kidnapper didn't come through the window, but I think he is strongly implying that.

So yes, it does appear he is trying to get the police to look at people with a key.

In April '97 he has LS on his side and he is really pushing the idea that the kidnapper(s) came in the window. He is also talking up the butler door being open, though we later find out a crime technician opened it.

 

[rashomon]

midwest mama,
Sure, now John can you please tell us what is the association between the suitcase and the broken window that allows you to assert that the intruder entered through it?

Why a suitcase, why not a chair under the window?

Good point about the chair. A chair would have offered more stability, but I think the Ramsey who staged the scene just took some random item from the basement whose height he/she thought would 'fit'.

That suitcase under the window just screams staging. Poor staging because a suitcase that stands the way it was found at the crime scene can become pretty unstable if used for climbing purposes.
[Just as 'climbing over' the ransom note on those spiral stairs would most likely have landed Patsy on the floor if she had really done that ...].

 

[rashomon]

Wouldn't it have been possible to find out via lab examination
- whether it was a fresh break or an older break;
- whether the window had been broken from the inside or the outside?

But iirc, neither S. Thomas nor J. Kolar mention in their books whether the broken glass was examined in detail and what the results were.

 

[DIRK SCHILLER]

Good point about the chair. A chair would have offered more stability, but I think the Ramsey who staged the scene just took some random item from the basement whose height he/she thought would 'fit'.

That suitcase under the window just screams staging. Poor staging because a suitcase that stands the way it was found at the crime scene can become pretty unstable if used for climbing purposes.
[Just as 'climbing over' the ransom note on those spiral stairs would most likely have landed Patsy on the floor if she had really done that ...].[/

belongs that suitcase to JR?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

This doesn't make much sense to me. The tea glass from that night was still on the table- I doubt anyone would bring a glass of tea into the basement, or drink it outside. Throwing a glass at the window would break the window, but break the glass too.
I do not think BR threw a glass of tea at his sister and I don't think that was what broke the window, whenever it was broken.

I don't know if I can copy and paste the post that was wondering IF (not necessarily that night) someone had throw something such as a glass of tea at someone before, breaking the window and leaving the mark,and maybe the broken (both window and tea glass) glass being cleaned up to hide a prior incidence between Burke and JonBenet down there. Pasty said she cleaned up the broken glass from when John broke it, and had Linda followed her and cleaned up the rest. Linda said she never cleaned up any glass and didn't know about the broken window pane.

Again,I'm not the one that said this. I was going further with the throwing something at his sister before, and remembered the Dr. Pepper can down there, as in something that could of been thrown at someone, missing them and breaking the window pane and leaving the stain on the wall. I guess I'm saying it's possible because there is evidence that someone did have beverages down there. It's an old break and wouldn't of been that big of a deal until the Ramsey's story about it changed.

There is no way John Ramsey went in that window before. With or without his clothes. There were other windows and doors on the first floor that he could of broken to get in. So what's being hid and why?

 

[ILikeToBendPages]

There was also a bruise on the labia- it seems like the bruising there along with the bruise on the inner thigh point to someone manually separating the labia, just as mentioned.
We really have no way of knowing whether JB was rinsed off, bathed, etc after an accident (toilet or otherwise). All the coroner noted was that she had been wiped down with a cloth. He did not note feces or anything else in or on her body. We can only speculate bout whether there would have been sufficient body odor to be noticeable. Children of that age as a rule do not sweat the way adults or adolescents do, and usually do not have body odor. However, if she had fecal matter that had not been cleaned away obviously that would have resulted in an odor that anyone would notice. I don't think that was the case- even Det. Arndt noted only an "odor of decay" when JR brought up her body. This is an unmistakeable odor that most police are trained to spot, and is very different than an odor from fecal matter or urine, though JB was wearing clothing stained with dried urine, so that would have been part of it too.

He DID find a partial fingerprint on the body which he decided not to mention....

Where was it found on her?


I meant as in cracks and crevices, dirt and grime found on her neck and other parts. I know what decomp smells like, but was just wondering if they saw that she hadn't been bathed recently.

Also there is a discussion for the cellulose material found in JonBenet's vagina. Pullup are made of cellulose. One Dr. thought the "material"
could of been there up to a week. Just thinking.