Known rope in the house

[UKGuy]

So light enough in weight that it wouldn't be noticed if the suitcase was picked up?

Chrishope,
Well how relevant is this: John moves the suitcase down to the basement, what!

I think this is the first time I remember him doing any domestic chores?

Moving stuff about the house was normally delegated to the housekeeper. e.g., Patsy's paint tote.

The best rationale I can come up with, is that they intended to dump JonBenet outdoors and place some of the objects dumped into the wine-cellar, inside that suitcase and deposit it all far away from the house.

When they decided to restage either the suitcase was redundant and left in place, or it was emptied into the wine-cellar, then placed at that angle to window?

What does John care about JAR's suitcase? I think the suitcase was to be used to relocate either crime-scene objects or JonBenet?


.

 

[DeeDee249]

Chrishope,
Well how relevant is this: John moves the suitcase down to the basement, what!

I think this is the first time I remember him doing any domestic chores?

Moving stuff about the house was normally delegated to the housekeeper. e.g., Patsy's paint tote.

The best rationale I can come up with, is that they intended to dump JonBenet outdoors and place some of the objects dumped into the wine-cellar, inside that suitcase and deposit it all far away from the house.

When they decided to restage either the suitcase was redundant and left in place, or it was emptied into the wine-cellar, then placed at that angle to window?

What does John care about JAR's suitcase? I think the suitcase was to be used to relocate either crime-scene objects or JonBenet?


.

I think JR told FW he was the one who broke the window months before because he never planned to try to say an intruder got in that way. JR saying the house was locked up was intended to put blame on an "insider" (other than one of them). Then, the FIRST thing he (calmly) says to Arndt after bringing his dead, blue, stiff and decomposing little girl up from the basement was "this was an inside job". THAT was all he had to say at that moment? No screams of horror, no tears of fury? Just a quiet "this was an inside job" as he looked Arndt in the eye.
The Rs PLANNED to try to make it stick to LHP as a first choice, or Jeff Merrick second choice. They were not going to try to say it was an intruder, despite the SFF crap in the note.
I don't believe the suitcase was ever going to be used to transport JB anywhere. I don't believe the parents ever intended to dump her outside.

Actually, I don't believe the Rs gave that suitcase OR the broken window a second thought until Lou Smit made the suitcase and broken window part of HIS intruder theory. Then they jumped on his bandwagon.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Enroute to the wine-cellar JR is obviously in staging mode. He is about to discover JonBenet. I think his remarks to Fleet White could be viewed in this context.

Its possible he was flagging up the window as a potential point of entry. That JR broke the window does not prevent an intruder coming through it. JR may have hoped FW would add broken window and JonBenet together and arrive at the window as the most likeliest point of entry.

The thing to prove or disprove is: did JR break that window when locked out?

If JR cannot corroborate his story then I reckon what he tells FW is a fabrication to account for obvious forensic evidence?

In other words JR is being disengenuous, his broken window story is obfuscation, an attempt at planting prior suspicion in FW's mind.

This is exactly what you might expect from someone who is about to reveal a staged crime-scene.

What JR did not know was that, in the majority of staged crime-scenes, it is the perpetrator who finds the victim!


.

I don't see a need to flag up the window as a potential point of entry. It seems people are suggesting FW/LE suffer from sever mental limitations, but I don't think that is the case.

It should be fairly obvious that a window that is larger than a man, and which is broken, is a possible entry/exit point. I doubt FW/LE need any help making the connection. I suspect French and Riechenbach made the connection before 7am and concluded, after closer inspection, that no one came in that way.

I do see your point that he might be encouraging FW to think of an intruder before the body is found. Maybe. That still doesn't explain telling the story to LE, as they are not going to believe for a moment that anyone came in that window.

 

[Chrishope]

Chrishope,
Well how relevant is this: John moves the suitcase down to the basement, what!

I think this is the first time I remember him doing any domestic chores?

Moving stuff about the house was normally delegated to the housekeeper. e.g., Patsy's paint tote.

The best rationale I can come up with, is that they intended to dump JonBenet outdoors and place some of the objects dumped into the wine-cellar, inside that suitcase and deposit it all far away from the house.

When they decided to restage either the suitcase was redundant and left in place, or it was emptied into the wine-cellar, then placed at that angle to window?

What does John care about JAR's suitcase? I think the suitcase was to be used to relocate either crime-scene objects or JonBenet?


.

Yes, I'm more surprised by him doing something domestic than the suitcase being where it was. I'm just trying to determine -because I have no knowledge of duvets- if one inside the suitcase would be heavy enough to feel. Apparently not.

The suitcase might not actually have anything to do with the crime/staging. Or it may, as you've previously suggested, have something to do with it that isn't as obvious as JR hoped it would be.

 

[UKGuy]

I don't see a need to flag up the window as a potential point of entry. It seems people are suggesting FW/LE suffer from sever mental limitations, but I don't think that is the case.

It should be fairly obvious that a window that is larger than a man, and which is broken, is a possible entry/exit point. I doubt FW/LE need any help making the connection. I suspect French and Riechenbach made the connection before 7am and concluded, after closer inspection, that no one came in that way.

I do see your point that he might be encouraging FW to think of an intruder before the body is found. Maybe. That still doesn't explain telling the story to LE, as they are not going to believe for a moment that anyone came in that window.

Chrishope,

I don't see a need to flag up the window as a potential point of entry.

Either do I. Yet JR went out of his way to make sure FW was aware that the window was broken and he was responsible.

JR could taken an alternative route and talked shop about something else, but JR was enroute to finding JonBenet, so I reckon the window mattered, for some reason, to JR!


.

 

[UKGuy]

I think JR told FW he was the one who broke the window months before because he never planned to try to say an intruder got in that way. JR saying the house was locked up was intended to put blame on an "insider" (other than one of them). Then, the FIRST thing he (calmly) says to Arndt after bringing his dead, blue, stiff and decomposing little girl up from the basement was "this was an inside job". THAT was all he had to say at that moment? No screams of horror, no tears of fury? Just a quiet "this was an inside job" as he looked Arndt in the eye.
The Rs PLANNED to try to make it stick to LHP as a first choice, or Jeff Merrick second choice. They were not going to try to say it was an intruder, despite the SFF crap in the note.
I don't believe the suitcase was ever going to be used to transport JB anywhere. I don't believe the parents ever intended to dump her outside.

Actually, I don't believe the Rs gave that suitcase OR the broken window a second thought until Lou Smit made the suitcase and broken window part of HIS intruder theory. Then they jumped on his bandwagon.

DeeDee249,

I think JR told FW he was the one who broke the window months before because he never planned to try to say an intruder got in that way.

This we do not know for certain, can you substantiate JR's claim to when he broke the window?

I agree with you about JR's inside job remarks, but this is all staging after the fact, just like the window, he was attempting to lay a false trail of clues, in which we know he was successful.

Actually, I don't believe the Rs gave that suitcase OR the broken window a second thought until Lou Smit made the suitcase and broken window part of HIS intruder theory. Then they jumped on his bandwagon.

I think JR and LS, during an extended prayer session, agreed that the suitcase represented forensic evidence, the rest is a wing and a prayer.

The corroboration is precisely what you stated: Its an inside job suddenly its an Intruder.

Some in the USofA describe this as pragmatism.




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[txsvicki]

So light enough in weight that it wouldn't be noticed if the suitcase was picked up?

Maybe. I doubt if JAR had a big king size bed in his dorm room which would make a duvet even heavier or larger. I always thought it came from the bedroom at the home and didn't know it was used on the dorm bedding.

 

[OpenMind4U]

Thank you. I don't have Kolar's book yet so I didn't know -with certainty- that JR had mentioned the broken window to officers. Did he tell them he broke it earlier? I've suspected yes, because they know about it during the April '97 interviews.

I think both of you (MM and you) are mistaken. According to JR, the FIRST time he went to the basement was after 9:00am (when Arndt lost the sight of JR for awile). At that time (again, according to interview with JR - see Police Files and Kolar books), JR saw the broken window the FIRST time. And he did NOT tell police officer about at that time!!! Why didn't he??

At that time, the 'kidnapping' investigation was in the full force. JBR wasn't discovered until 1:00pm. If JR wasn't involved in JBR murder/staging - he MUST say something about this window right away!!! But he didn't because he wants/needs LE to discovered this window on their own!....JR mention to officers about this window when JBR 'kidnapping' becomes JBR homicide!...a big difference!!! JMO...

In regards of how believable this window was as entry/exit point, let me tell you this: JR story of how he used this window in the summer wasn't believable either! When LS made an experiment by climbing through this window, he climbed with his foot down, FORWARD....not like JR said: BACKWARD.... ....and not just once but few other times...makes me wonder, did he used the same broken window or need to brake the glass over and over again?...regardless, JR was unshakable about this window as an entry point during the interviews with LE...and LE was pretty much grilled him about this window without much success:banghead:....

 

[dodie20]

Yes, I'm more surprised by him doing something domestic than the suitcase being where it was. I'm just trying to determine -because I have no knowledge of duvets- if one inside the suitcase would be heavy enough to feel. Apparently not.

The suitcase might not actually have anything to do with the crime/staging. Or it may, as you've previously suggested, have something to do with it that isn't as obvious as JR hoped it would be.

What exactly was in the suitcase? Years ago, I splurged on an expensive down comforter, and then bought a duvet cover for it. The cover itself, weighed practically nothing. It was just a thin sheet-like cover, fitted on to the comforter, to keep the comforter itself, from getting dirty. Duvet covers are handy little accessories used to to protect the comforter. Now, the weight of an actual duvet, (comforter), is a different story. They can weigh quite a bit.

 

[Chrishope]

Maybe. I doubt if JAR had a big king size bed in his dorm room which would make a duvet even heavier or larger. I always thought it came from the bedroom at the home and didn't know it was used on the dorm bedding.

Others have said he used it in the dorm room. I don't know for sure. It makes sense that he may have taken it from home. The university wouldn't supply a duvet.

 

[Chrishope]

What exactly was in the suitcase? Years ago, I splurged on an expensive down comforter, and then bought a duvet cover for it. The cover itself, weighed practically nothing. It was just a thin sheet-like cover, fitted on to the comforter, to keep the comforter itself, from getting dirty. Duvet covers are handy little accessories used to to protect the comforter. Now, the weight of an actual duvet, (comforter), is a different story. They can weigh quite a bit.

OK, now I have another question. Why is JAR concerned with duvets? This is not a "guy" thing. Maybe it's just from his bed at home? i'm going to have to go back and re-read about the contents of the suitcase. Maybe I've assumed things I shouldn't.

 

[DeeDee249]

OK, now I have another question. Why is JAR concerned with duvets? This is not a "guy" thing. Maybe it's just from his bed at home? i'm going to have to go back and re-read about the contents of the suitcase. Maybe I've assumed things I shouldn't.

I think it was just a comforter. End of story. People who are not familiar with the different types of bedding terms (for example, male police officers) may have simply described the comforter as a duvet. I have heard the STUFFED duvet cover with a comforter inside described as a duvet. And some people describe a comforter as a duvet also.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,

This we do not know for certain, can you substantiate JR's claim to when he broke the window?

.

Of course not- no one can. We have only his word.

 

[learnin]

I agree. It would be interesting to know more about what the GJ saw/heard. No doubt they saw the LS road show. A competent DA, trying to get an indictment, should have been able to make mincemeat out of LS's theory. But as we know, the DA wasn't trying to get the Ramseys. The DA was doing everything he could to get the Rs off the hook. I wonder if they even tried to refute LS's "evidence"?

I'd say it's almost certain he didn't know, because he had not gone outside, and had not removed the grate either from outside or by pushing it out from inside.



I think the most likely scenarios is JR killed JBR and did all the staging. Basically my position is the same as DocG's http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/08/clear-evidence-of-staging-basement.html

Why wouldn't JR change his position later? LS, a highly respected detective, was pushing the idea that an intruder came in/out the window. LS is helping JR get off the hook. JR can't very well say "Hey Lou, it's highly unlikely anyone came in or out that way".

IMO there is no getting around the fact that the grate is in place, the web is intact, and the dirt only very slightly disturbed -not nearly disturbed enough to suggest someone came in or got out that way. JR's story cannot make the window a plausible POE, so his purpose in telling that story can't be to help anyone make that "connection".

If you think John was the perp, who was he trying to pin it on, Patsy?

 

[learnin]

I agree. It would be interesting to know more about what the GJ saw/heard. No doubt they saw the LS road show. A competent DA, trying to get an indictment, should have been able to make mincemeat out of LS's theory. But as we know, the DA wasn't trying to get the Ramseys. The DA was doing everything he could to get the Rs off the hook. I wonder if they even tried to refute LS's "evidence"?

I'd say it's almost certain he didn't know, because he had not gone outside, and had not removed the grate either from outside or by pushing it out from inside.



I think the most likely scenarios is JR killed JBR and did all the staging. Basically my position is the same as DocG's http://solvingjonbenet.blogspot.com/2012/08/clear-evidence-of-staging-basement.html

Why wouldn't JR change his position later? LS, a highly respected detective, was pushing the idea that an intruder came in/out the window. LS is helping JR get off the hook. JR can't very well say "Hey Lou, it's highly unlikely anyone came in or out that way".

IMO there is no getting around the fact that the grate is in place, the web is intact, and the dirt only very slightly disturbed -not nearly disturbed enough to suggest someone came in or got out that way. JR's story cannot make the window a plausible POE, so his purpose in telling that story can't be to help anyone make that "connection".

Why, then, did CSI spend so much time videotaping that broken window if was obvious that this wasn't a point of entry and exit? If I recall, they spent much more time on that window than all of the rest of the messy room? Remember, this was videotaped that night several hours after the body was removed from the home. This was before Lou Smit arrived on the scene. Before, as you say, John began pushing the window.

 

[learnin]

Chrishope,
Enroute to the wine-cellar JR is obviously in staging mode. He is about to discover JonBenet. I think his remarks to Fleet White could be viewed in this context.

Its possible he was flagging up the window as a potential point of entry. That JR broke the window does not prevent an intruder coming through it. JR may have hoped FW would add broken window and JonBenet together and arrive at the window as the most likeliest point of entry.

The thing to prove or disprove is: did JR break that window when locked out?

If JR cannot corroborate his story then I reckon what he tells FW is a fabrication to account for obvious forensic evidence?

In other words JR is being disengenuous, his broken window story is obfuscation, an attempt at planting prior suspicion in FW's mind.

This is exactly what you might expect from someone who is about to reveal a staged crime-scene.

What JR did not know was that, in the majority of staged crime-scenes, it is the perpetrator who finds the victim!


.

Good points.

 

[learnin]

Chrishope and all others who don't believe John wanted Fleet to see the
broken window before discovering the body. I quote from ST's book:

"Each window had four panes, and Fleet White, having been down there earlier, pointed out the baseball-sized hole in the upper left pane of the middle window. "DAMN IT, I HAD TO BREAK THAT," JOHN RAMSEY SAID, adding that it had happened the previous summer when he kicked in the window to get into the house after locking himself out. SHOULD HAVE FIXED IT THEN, HE NOTED, TAPPING HIS FOREHEAD". (emphasis mine)

Please read the capitalized part of John's words and tell me John wasn't implying that the intruder could have come in through that window.

Why else would John say, "DAMN IT" when Fleet pointed out the broken window? Do you think John was mad at himself because the heating bill was high????? Of course not! After Fleet pointed out an obvious point of entry, John is mad at himself. Not content with just that, John adds: "SHOULD HAVE FIXED IT THEN"....and then he taps his head.

His daughter is missing. Do you suppose John was tapping his head and swearing and exclaiming he should have fixed the window because bugs were getting in or an intruder might have come in through that way???? Do you think, WITH HIS DAUGHTER MISSING, that John was mad at himself because cold air was coming in the house or that an intruder might have come in through there?

It's so obvious what John was trying to do that detectives grilled John, at a later interview, about just how John crawled through that window...they grilled him at length.

 

[learnin]

I think JR told FW he was the one who broke the window months before because he never planned to try to say an intruder got in that way. JR saying the house was locked up was intended to put blame on an "insider" (other than one of them). Then, the FIRST thing he (calmly) says to Arndt after bringing his dead, blue, stiff and decomposing little girl up from the basement was "this was an inside job". THAT was all he had to say at that moment? No screams of horror, no tears of fury? Just a quiet "this was an inside job" as he looked Arndt in the eye.
The Rs PLANNED to try to make it stick to LHP as a first choice, or Jeff Merrick second choice. They were not going to try to say it was an intruder, despite the SFF crap in the note.
I don't believe the suitcase was ever going to be used to transport JB anywhere. I don't believe the parents ever intended to dump her outside.

Actually, I don't believe the Rs gave that suitcase OR the broken window a second thought until Lou Smit made the suitcase and broken window part of HIS intruder theory. Then they jumped on his bandwagon.

No doubt they were trying to stick it on an insider..an insider who came in and exited through the basement window...who else would know that possible point of entry but an "insider"?

 

[learnin]

I don't see a need to flag up the window as a potential point of entry. It seems people are suggesting FW/LE suffer from sever mental limitations, but I don't think that is the case.

It should be fairly obvious that a window that is larger than a man, and which is broken, is a possible entry/exit point. I doubt FW/LE need any help making the connection. I suspect French and Riechenbach made the connection before 7am and concluded, after closer inspection, that no one came in that way.

I do see your point that he might be encouraging FW to think of an intruder before the body is found. Maybe. That still doesn't explain telling the story to LE, as they are not going to believe for a moment that anyone came in that window.

Chris, before discovering a body in your own home, a body which is going to, immediately bring all kinds of suspicion on you or a family member, you might want to take away some of that suspicion by pointing out a possible point of entry...

Body in basement, broken window in basement. Remember, John didn't know FW had been in the basement and had, already, seen the broken window.

Repeat: Body in basement, broken window in basement. I discover body, FW wonders about the broken window a few feet around the corner...

 

[DeeDee249]

No doubt they were trying to stick it on an insider..an insider who came in and exited through the basement window...who else would know that possible point of entry but an "insider"?

Well, the windows are visible from outside the house. Anyone can see them. You don't necessarily need to be familiar with the layout of the rooms in the basement. I don't think using the window as an exit/entrance point points to an insider in particular, but rather could go either way.
I still maintain that the Rs themselves were not considering the window as exit or entrance until Lou Smit began pushing it.