Laura Babcock: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich charged w/Murder in the First Degree #1

[swedie]

I suspect that it was DM himself and that he was concealing his identity for obvious reasons. If the incinerator was being purchased on behalf of a business rather than an individual, it would be less suspicious I guess? Not to mention, it would not be tied to the farm if it was not delivered there.

Nothing more suspicious than an individual ordering an incinerator to be delivered to a farm where there was no livestock but likely a deceased body in the barn.

MOO

For LE to charge DM and MS with LB's death, I suspect they have supporting evidence. I highly doubt LE would devastate her family by telling them she was deceased without something solid to base it on. I bet they did find part of that evidence in the barn. That board which was carried out gives me the heebie jeebies. Could those be bodily fluid stains? And the paper bag over the end, did LB's hair get caught/snagged by the end of the board pulling some out, leaving it as evidence? Although LE said after the search, they came away empty handed, I think DNA testing proved otherwise. I think their statement just meant no obvious evidence such as her remains. If not in the barn, where else could they have left her? The area where the incinerator was found? I think through their investigation to do with Tim, their investigation back there, nothing was found and that is why they turned their search to the barn. Or maybe because someone was talking; DM or MS? JMO.

 

[Kamille]

For LE to charge DM and MS with LB's death, I suspect they have supporting evidence. I highly doubt LE would devastate her family by telling them she was deceased without something solid to base it on. I bet they did find part of that evidence in the barn. That board which was carried out gives me the heebie jeebies. Could those be bodily fluid stains? And the paper bag over the end, did LB's hair get caught/snagged by the end of the board pulling some out, leaving it as evidence? Although LE said after the search, they came away empty handed, I think DNA testing proved otherwise. I think their statement just meant no obvious evidence such as her remains. If not in the barn, where else could they have left her? The area where the incinerator was found? I think through their investigation to do with Tim, their investigation back there, nothing was found and that is why they turned their search to the barn. Or maybe because someone was talking; DM or MS? JMO.

Wasn't there a neighbour who admitted to walking at least the perimeter of the property if not on the actual property itself? Seemed to know a lot about where the incinerator "usually was" as opposed to where it was found. And took pictures of the excavating equipment. Or maybe that was a different neighbour. Anyway, I don't think it would have made much sense to leave a body out in the open on your own property for a neighbour to find. Or even hidden in a treed area. Animal activity would have scattered that body and maybe some would end up on a neighbouring property, which would certainly have been a problem for the person who put her on their own property and who had ties to that person. Makes total sense to hide it in a locked barn, until the incinerator showed up.

And yes, perhaps no obvious evidence was found in that barn but DNA testing may have proven differently a few months down the road.

MOO

 

[swedie]

Wasn't there a neighbour who admitted to walking at least the perimeter of the property if not on the actual property itself? Seemed to know a lot about where the incinerator "usually was" as opposed to where it was found. And took pictures of the excavating equipment. Or maybe that was a different neighbour. Anyway, I don't think it would have made much sense to leave a body out in the open on your own property for a neighbour to find. Or even hidden in a treed area. Animal activity would have scattered that body and maybe some would end up on a neighbouring property, which would certainly have been a problem for the person who put her on their own property and who had ties to that person. Makes total sense to hide it in a locked barn, until the incinerator showed up.

And yes, perhaps no obvious evidence was found in that barn but DNA testing may have proven differently a few months down the road.

MOO

Agreed and that is why I think evidence was found in the barn. Many times when considering some of these issues, I hear DP's past pressers and claims to the MSM being replayed in my mind about DM being intelligent. I bet he was referring to how intelligently DM thought when carrying out and covering up these murders. Just as in this point. He knew better then to leave bodies out in the open and the best ways of disposing of them.

 

[hopingforjustice]

Wasn't there a neighbour who admitted to walking at least the perimeter of the property if not on the actual property itself? Seemed to know a lot about where the incinerator "usually was" as opposed to where it was found. And took pictures of the excavating equipment. Or maybe that was a different neighbour. Anyway, I don't think it would have made much sense to leave a body out in the open on your own property for a neighbour to find. Or even hidden in a treed area. Animal activity would have scattered that body and maybe some would end up on a neighbouring property, which would certainly have been a problem for the person who put her on their own property and who had ties to that person. Makes total sense to hide it in a locked barn, until the incinerator showed up.

And yes, perhaps no obvious evidence was found in that barn but DNA testing may have proven differently a few months down the road.

MOO

You are right...the neighbours did report those findings. And I completely agree that things must have been found in that barn. I can only hope that LE has everything they need because the new owners have been in there and doing a huge "heave ho" in the barn. I am suspecting it will come down very shortly.

JMO

 

[swedie]

You are right...the neighbours did report those findings. And I completely agree that things must have been found in that barn. I can only hope that LE has everything they need because the new owners have been in there and doing a huge "heave ho" in the barn. I am suspecting it will come down very shortly.

JMO

Thank you Hoping. Yes I would imagine this business wants to get it all cleaned up and set up for business just in time for their peek season. Have you seen any media vehicles around the farmland? Surprised none have been there to cover the latest, the clean up. Maybe when the barn comes down. I wonder if DM had to foot the bill for disposing of all those drums of chemical? JMO.

 

[MsSherlock]

You are right...the neighbours did report those findings. And I completely agree that things must have been found in that barn. I can only hope that LE has everything they need because the new owners have been in there and doing a huge "heave ho" in the barn. I am suspecting it will come down very shortly.

JMO

I'm leaning towards dental identification found in the incinerator. There may have been DNA evidence in the barn, but according to this article by Susan Clairmont:

"Police have said they believe Bosma was killed the night he was abducted and his body burned in an animal incinerator at a farm owned by Millard in Ayr, near Kitchener.

A source close to the investigation, who is not authorized to speak publicly, has told The Spectator that police believe Babcock met a similar fate. Her body has not been recovered, the source says."

https://www.insidehalton.com/news-s...olice-believe-babcock-s-body-was-incinerated/

IMO, for them to lay charges, they would have to be 100% positive that LB is in fact deceased and teeth in the ashes of an incinerator would definitely give them that proof. MOO

 

[MsSherlock]

The search at the farm: certainly looks like HPS didn't want to miss anything. MOO

"An anthropologist from the coroner’s office is on site at the farm, he said, and it’s slow, painstaking work.

“They just look for small fragments, that’s all,” Kavanagh said. “It’s forensic evidence so that’s what we’re interested in.”

http://metronews.ca/news/canada/675...ize-incinerator-from-dellen-millard-property/

 

[hopingforjustice]

Thank you Hoping. Yes I would imagine this business wants to get it all cleaned up and set up for business just in time for their peek season. Have you seen any media vehicles around the farmland? Surprised none have been there to cover the latest, the clean up. Maybe when the barn comes down. I wonder if DM had to foot the bill for disposing of all those drums of chemical? JMO.

No, I have not seen any media at all. The drums were all cleaned up quite some time ago. I passed by one day and noticed the company there picking them up. I can't remember when it was, I will go through my posts and find the date but I am pretty sure it was before the sale date.

ETA: Wow time flies...I posted this Nov 1

11-01-2013, 02:56 PM
hopingforjustice hopingforjustice is online now
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Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 115
More clean up going on at the farm...I just drove past and noticed a Clean Harbors truck backed up to the barn. Clean Harbours is the company we deal with at work for disposing of our used oil. (They are a waste and hazardous materials management company.)

www.cleanharbors.com
Last edited by hopingforjustice; 11-01-2013 at 03:21 PM.

 

[Sphinx]

The search at the farm: certainly looks like HPS didn't want to miss anything. MOO

"An anthropologist from the coroner’s office is on site at the farm, he said, and it’s slow, painstaking work.

“They just look for small fragments, that’s all,” Kavanagh said. “It’s forensic evidence so that’s what we’re interested in.”

http://metronews.ca/news/canada/675...ize-incinerator-from-dellen-millard-property/

I doubt they would have left any ashes in the incinerator, but if they scattered them in the woods, LE may have still found forensic evidence, and if they took the incinerator apart, they might have found evidence, like a tooth, in a crack. There could also easily be blood evidence in the barn that forensics could find, even after a clean up. Lets hope the new owners don't find any more bodies buried on the farm.

 

[swedie]

JMO but I believe LE found more than just ashes. We've been all over this in the past in the Incinerator thread and the fact that they were able to identify Tim's remains at the scene, leads me to believe they had an actual body. Yes there could have been other identifying factors such as boots, clothing, wallet, etc. but for them to make an announcement within a very short amount of time it was Tim, I don't believe they would do it on belongings alone. Many articles also reported a body and the fact that they said his body was sent to Forensics for testing IMO leads me to the conclusion they had something to work with to try and determine the cause of Tim's death. As the one article states, Beyond recognition doesn't necessarily mean reduced to bones and ashes, it just mean the person is not recognizable.

Tim's wasn't released in time for his service because the Centre of Forensic Sciences hadn't released his body in time for the service. It is JMO but I assume what was remaining of Tim, SB decided to have him cremated, thus her comment about being handed a small box.

“Medical records, dental records, those are the type of things that help us identify people … I mean, beyond recognition could mean your facial features are no longer visible, your finger prints are no longer visible,” she says.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...sic_expert_examines_dellen_millards_farm.html

A cause of death is not yet known and the coroner and Centre of Forensic Sciences are assisting in examining the remains.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...olice-anxious-as-hunt-for-suspects-continues/

 

[Kamille]

JMO but I believe LE found more than just ashes. We've been all over this in the past in the Incinerator thread and the fact that they were able to identify Tim's remains at the scene, leads me to believe they had an actual body. Yes there could have been other identifying factors such as boots, clothing, wallet, etc. but for them to make an announcement within a very short amount of time it was Tim, I don't believe they would do it on belongings alone. Many articles also reported a body and the fact that they said his body was sent to Forensics for testing IMO leads me to the conclusion they had something to work with to try and determine the cause of Tim's death. As the one article states, Beyond recognition doesn't necessarily mean reduced to bones and ashes, it just mean the person is not recognizable.

Tim's wasn't released in time for his service because the Centre of Forensic Sciences hadn't released his body in time for the service. It is JMO but I assume what was remaining of Tim, SB decided to have him cremated, thus her comment about being handed a small box.

“Medical records, dental records, those are the type of things that help us identify people … I mean, beyond recognition could mean your facial features are no longer visible, your finger prints are no longer visible,” she says.

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/201...sic_expert_examines_dellen_millards_farm.html

A cause of death is not yet known and the coroner and Centre of Forensic Sciences are assisting in examining the remains.

http://news.nationalpost.com/2013/0...olice-anxious-as-hunt-for-suspects-continues/

I believe SB stated that she received TB's remains in a box the size of a shoebox. I think he was fully incinerated but not all of a person's bones, teeth etc can be incinerated, not even at a proper crematorium I believe. But you could be right that the process of fully incinerating his body had not yet been completed and that he was properly cremated after his remains were forensically examined.

It's possible that they just didn't have enough time to remove the "remains" from the incinerator and dispose of them before DM was arrested IMO. So identification was likely made by either DNA, dental, jewellery or other metal specific to him. Maybe they were that cocky and didn't even bother to remove any ashes etc from that incinerator , TB's or LB's. Or if they did they buried them somewhere and they were found by LE?

MOO

 

[matou]

I am 100% sure LB was incinerated. I believe that was the reason for the purchase of the incinerator in the first place. What did he do with the cremains? He went away on vacations with friends overseas that summer. She would have had pieces of metal associated with her that would not incinerate: jewellery, piercings, possible hearing aid, also teeth. How long does it take for an incinerator to cool off enough to remove the contents, I wonder?

 

[puppyraiser]

I am 100% sure LB was incinerated. I believe that was the reason for the purchase of the incinerator in the first place. What did he do with the cremains? He went away on vacations with friends overseas that summer. She would have had pieces of metal associated with her that would not incinerate: jewellery, piercings, possible hearing aid, also teeth. How long does it take for an incinerator to cool off enough to remove the contents, I wonder?

The swamp?

Backhoe on site, as well as a bobcat. Would be interesting to find out if the backhoe and bobcat have always been at the farm, if they arrived around the same time as the incinerator or if they appeared after TB's disappearance.

 

[Kamille]

I am 100% sure LB was incinerated. I believe that was the reason for the purchase of the incinerator in the first place. What did he do with the cremains? He went away on vacations with friends overseas that summer. She would have had pieces of metal associated with her that would not incinerate: jewellery, piercings, possible hearing aid, also teeth. How long does it take for an incinerator to cool off enough to remove the contents, I wonder?

I still wonder about those reports that indicated there were enough remains for more than one body found. Those sure got pulled quickly. An what about the neighbour who stated the incinerator was not "where it usually was" on the property? Why the need to move it?

 

[matou]

I still wonder about those reports that indicated there were enough remains for more than one body found. Those sure got pulled quickly. An what about the neighbour who stated the incinerator was not "where it usually was" on the property? Why the need to move it?

Also the report by the CBC that stated that more remains were recovered.

Here is that article again from May 19 2013: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/unknown-remains-found-on-dellen-millard-s-farm-1.1335720

and the update to that info:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/kitch...ns-found-at-millard-farm-police-say-1.1335718

 

[Snoofo]

I'm leaning towards dental identification found in the incinerator. There may have been DNA evidence in the barn, but according to this article by Susan Clairmont:

"Police have said they believe Bosma was killed the night he was abducted and his body burned in an animal incinerator at a farm owned by Millard in Ayr, near Kitchener.

A source close to the investigation, who is not authorized to speak publicly, has told The Spectator that police believe Babcock met a similar fate. Her body has not been recovered, the source says."

https://www.insidehalton.com/news-s...olice-believe-babcock-s-body-was-incinerated/

IMO, for them to lay charges, they would have to be 100% positive that LB is in fact deceased and teeth in the ashes of an incinerator would definitely give them that proof. MOO

Wouldn't teeth be considered part of the body to be recovered? I know it is hard to work around the specific language used by LE or MSM but I am guessing finding a tooth is more useful a body part to find than, let's say, a femur, as there are likely dental records but not necessarily x-rays of her body from the past. So if LB's body wasn't recovered would that mean her whole body or even a single body part?

If "the finding" was outside of the incinerator, that would be hard to prove as not having been planted or contaminated somehow. Who knows what kind of people were wandering about the farm property after this became big news?

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[matou]

I suspect that there were tests done on all of the burnt remains found at the site and that at least one sample tested positive for belonging to someone other than TB and perhaps tested positive to belonging to LB. Hence, no body recovered but evidence of her body. Police must know she is dead with 100% certainty. JMO

 

[Kamille]

Wouldn't teeth be considered part of the body to be recovered? I know it is hard to work around the specific language used by LE or MSM but I am guessing finding a tooth is more useful a body part to find than, let's say, a femur, as there are likely dental records but not necessarily x-rays of her body from the past. So if LB's body wasn't recovered would that mean her whole body or even a single body part?

If "the finding" was outside of the incinerator, that would be hard to prove as not having been planted or contaminated somehow. Who knows what kind of people were wandering about the farm property after this became big news?

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Cremains are pretty specific and if any cremains that could be tied back to LB were found on the property, how on earth would they have gotten there? Someone else has an incinerator? That would be some very long odds. LE believe she was put in the incinerator. Now whether they have found evidence of cremains for her or whether that is a circumstantial conclusion based on evidence that her deceased body was in the barn is yet to be seen.

While we're on the topic, here is a link that shows some pictures of what cremains look like when they are put through a proper crematory furnace. The final result that most people are familiar with has been put through a grinder to grind the cremains down to a fine powder. We use the term "ashes" but that's not really what cremains are.

http://www.deep-six.com/deathweb/page223.htm

So assuming that the cremains that were left over from the incineration at the farm were not put through a grinder, there would have been some large fragments to be found. I believe at least those of TB were still in the incinerator and probably not "cremated" fully. In fact, I believe it was described as "burnt beyond recognition". Certainly not fully cremated as his body would not appear "burnt".

MOO

 

[Snoofo]

Gross!

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[hopingforjustice]

Cremains are pretty specific and if any cremains that could be tied back to LB were found on the property, how on earth would they have gotten there? Someone else has an incinerator? That would be some very long odds. LE believe she was put in the incinerator. Now whether they have found evidence of cremains for her or whether that is a circumstantial conclusion based on evidence that her deceased body was in the barn is yet to be seen.

While we're on the topic, here is a link that shows some pictures of what cremains look like when they are put through a proper crematory furnace. The final result that most people are familiar with has been put through a grinder to grind the cremains down to a fine powder. We use the term "ashes" but that's not really what cremains are.

http://www.deep-six.com/deathweb/page223.htm

So assuming that the cremains that were left over from the incineration at the farm were not put through a grinder, there would have been some large fragments to be found. I believe at least those of TB were still in the incinerator and probably not "cremated" fully. In fact, I believe it was described as "burnt beyond recognition". Certainly not fully cremated as his body would not appear "burnt".

MOO

A family member recently told me that when they went to spread the "ashes" of their loved one, they were taken aback that the ashes had some fracture to it.