Laura Babcock: Dellen Millard & Mark Smich charged w/ Murder in the First Degree #2

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  • #181
.

If you check out a lot of those "not guilty" verdicts it is usually because of a technicality , warrants not worded properly , rights violated slightly , witness not showing up , things like that.

It does not mean they didn't do the crime

Judges are fairly lenient if the accused has a bit of a sloppy defense , but if LE or prosecutors make a tiny slip the judge will toss the case in an instant.

A lot of people are caught red handed in the middle of a crime but get away with it because of judicial screw-ups

I think there are many guilty people who beat the judicial system based on lack of evidence or minor technicalities. I don't think that's going to happen though in this case. MWJ's case wasn't a homicide, but just an example of where someone is guilty of a crime, but for some reason unknown to us at this time, beat the system on drug and gun charges...for now. JMHO.
 
  • #182
  • #183
I believe that those pleading to a lesser charge may be included under "Other". Other includes: "final decisions of found not criminally responsible and waived in or out of province or territory. Also includes any order where a conviction was not recorded, the court's acceptance of a special plea, cases that raise Charter arguments and cases where the accused was found unfit to stand trial."

Possibly, unless it's still a similar charge. If they plea to a criminal charge it doesn't appear to fall under 'other'.

You are correct, though, that people do sometimes plead guilty when they are innocent. They will plead to a lesser charge to get a lighter sentence, rather than risk losing at trial and getting a more severe penalty. They plead guilty to avoid, not only the financial costs of going to trial, but the psychological costs as well.

Yes, thats right but I think sometimes the financial is solely the reason as it is something that cannot be met, if no funds. The psychological factor may not even be considered, if financial is the first consideration. Then if someone has a frail state of mind and is financially secure they could use the plea to avoid the stress of the trial. But I agree that sometimes even both factors are joint reasons to plea out.


Lawyers and prosecution working out a deal based on a lie, now that sounds honourable. :facepalm:



I really like the above link as the system and plea bargaining is something I fail to see as anything to do with actual justice JMO, these links shed some light on a few facts and open up this can of worms- thanks for links

I wouldn't know how often this happens in homicide cases, but it shouldn't be ignored.

JMO

Agreed !
 
  • #184
I think there are many guilty people who beat the judicial system based on lack of evidence or minor technicalities. I don't think that's going to happen though in this case. MWJ's case wasn't a homicide, but just an example of where someone is guilty of a crime, but for some reason unknown to us at this time, beat the system on drug and gun charges...for now. JMHO.

Are there any links to statistics that suggest that many people beat the justice system on a minor technicality?

Surely if there is a lack of evidence they shouldn't have been charged in the first place. JMO

Just because someone doesn't get convicted, doesn't mean they were guilty and by some fluke managed to beat the system. It may have been that there was no evidence to support the allegations (shouldn't have been charged if thats the case) and/or they are innocent. MOO
 
  • #185
What relevance does this have to this thread, which is supposed to be about the case against DM and MS, where there has been no stay or dismissal? Do you expect that there is 53% possibility of this happening?

I find it quite relevant based on the fact that we have been discussing the issues and many people including yourself (#166) have posted about it. It is also relevant insofar as showing the fallibility of the system, so that people don't get locked into the idea that it is infallible. We have no way of knowing which category MS or DM will be in at the outcome of this case, by putting it out there what the current statistics show ( or fail to show) gives us some insight at possibilities. JMO
 
  • #186
Are there any links to statistics that suggest that many people beat the justice system on a minor technicality?

Surely if there is a lack of evidence they shouldn't have been charged in the first place. JMO

Just because someone doesn't get convicted, doesn't mean they were guilty and by some fluke managed to beat the system. It may have been that there was no evidence to support the allegations (shouldn't have been charged if thats the case) and/or they are innocent. MOO

Couldn't tell you as I've never looked into it. You could though if you're interested in knowing. Maybe you could take a look at DP's track record for starters. I know that's not statistics but it's something to consider. MOO.

I said "lack" of evidence not "no" evidence. There is a difference. HTH.

And sometime that is the case, they are guilty and just happen to get luck and beat the system. Makes me think of OJ Simpson's murder trial. ;)
 
  • #187
Couldn't tell you as I've never looked into it. You could though if you're interested in knowing. Maybe you could take a look at DP's track record for starters. I know that's not statistics but it's something to consider. MOO.

I said "lack" of evidence not "no" evidence. There is a difference. HTH.

lack
noun

: the state or condition of not having any or enough of something : the state or condition of lacking something
Full Definition of LACK
1
: the fact or state of being wanting or deficient <a lack of evidence>
2
: something that is lacking or is needed

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lack

an insufficiency, shortage, or absence of something required or desired

something that is required but is absent or in short supply

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/lack

I don't believe there is a difference especially if it is to explain the reason for people not being convicted. If there is insufficient evidence as in no evidence or lack of evidence ( ie absent or not enough to bring a charge) then there is insufficient grounds to charge IMO. This has not stopped charges being laid on people for whom not enough evidence exists and who may well be innocent.



And sometime that is the case, they are guilty and just happen to get luck and beat the system. Makes me think of OJ Simpson's murder trial. ;)

OJ is a whole other case and I have a feeling we may not see eye to eye on it. ;-)
 
  • #188
lack
noun

: the state or condition of not having any or enough of something : the state or condition of lacking something
Full Definition of LACK
1
: the fact or state of being wanting or deficient <a lack of evidence>
2
: something that is lacking or is needed

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lack

an insufficiency, shortage, or absence of something required or desired

something that is required but is absent or in short supply

http://dictionary.reverso.net/english-definition/lack

I don't believe there is a difference especially if it is to explain the reason for people not being convicted. If there is insufficient evidence as in no evidence or lack of evidence ( ie absent or not enough to bring a charge) then there is insufficient grounds to charge IMO. This has not stopped charges being laid on people for whom not enough evidence exists and who may well be innocent.

OJ is a whole other case and I have a feeling we may not see eye to eye on it. ;-)

Or then there's the other way of interpreting LACK.

UBM - That would not surprise me. MOO.
 
  • #189
Or then there's the other way of interpreting LACK.

UBM - That would not surprise me. MOO.


Whichever way you interpret it, the outcome is either not enough to say someone is guilty or none at at all IMO. Both scenarios do not point to guilt. IMO.

What surprises me is that people can convict based upon allegation and no trial. Should a trial produce overwhelming evidence of guilt then that can be assessed, but prior to that trial I see no justifiable way that people can absolutely determine guilt, especially with the knowledge that the system is far from infallible. JMO
 
  • #190
Couldn't tell you as I've never looked into it. You could though if you're interested in knowing. Maybe you could take a look at DP's track record for starters. I know that's not statistics but it's something to consider. MOO.

I said "lack" of evidence not "no" evidence. There is a difference. HTH.

And sometime that is the case, they are guilty and just happen to get luck and beat the system. Makes me think of OJ Simpson's murder trial. ;)

Well, RP is on the 3 DM-related cases now and his track record is...less than stellar.

DM is an "old stock" Canadian - ain't no one gonna feel sorry for him.

I keep thinking how he happily gained weight and denied all involvement when he first went to jail...but now he's a wraith, unkempt, unwashed, and thin.

I take that as a sign that he is now living in the same reality as the rest of us.
 
  • #191
Whichever way you interpret it, the outcome is either not enough to say someone is guilty or none at at all IMO. Both scenarios do not point to guilt. IMO.

What surprises me is that people can convict based upon allegation and no trial. Should a trial produce overwhelming evidence of guilt then that can be assessed, but prior to that trial I see no justifiable way that people can absolutely determine guilt, especially with the knowledge that the system is far from infallible. JMO

What surprises me is you seem to think this is a courtroom and we are absolutely determining guilt
We are not . It is a discussion forum and we express the opinion we think there is guilt
And you tend to express the opinion there is no reason to assume guilt
It would appear you feel your opinions are acceptable and ours are not
Yet you are unable to provide one speck of information showing the possibility of innocence
I fail to see how that contributes to a true crime discussion forum
 
  • #192
It's not necessary for the public to believe that DM is innocent.

It is only necessary that 12 jurors come in, forget about what they might have heard, assume DM is innocent in a theoretical and symbolic way, listen to all the evidence, and find guilt (or not, which is not likely going by averages and certainly not likely going by the circumstances heading into the trial 4 months from now.)
 
  • #193
Well, RP is on the 3 DM-related cases now and his track record is...less than stellar.

DM is an "old stock" Canadian - ain't no one gonna feel sorry for him.

I keep thinking how he happily gained weight and denied all involvement when he first went to jail...but now he's a wraith, unkempt, unwashed, and thin.

I take that as a sign that he is now living in the same reality as the rest of us.

Personally, as a Canadian from a long line of Canadians, I find the term 'old stock Canadian' highly offensive. Should we now judge how Canadian someone is by how many generations their family may or may not have been here? Is there some sort of privilege and social standing that comes from being born into the 'right' Canadian family, and how does one go about accomplishing that? I had always thought that judging someone for the uncontrollable circumstances of their birth was wrong, whether it is to judge them on the colour of their skin, their gender, how many generations their family has lived where, or their family's financial status. I wonder, does it just make it more okay to be prejudiced against them since all of these old-timey families must be the same? Surely they are from the same old stock at least?

What about the poor unfortunates who chose to be born to lesser families, the ones who may have only been here a couple of generations, how should we treat them, should they get more or less sympathy? I'm confused now. How many generation should be born here before we start to treat them differently? Or how about we all act like traditional Canadians and treat everyone equally no matter what family they were born into?


When I look around I don't see the rest of us looking wraith, unkempt, unwashed and thin, that's not the same reality most of us here in Canada are living in. To me, hearing that a prisoner in solitary confinement had gone from previously healthy and clean to frail and dishevelled would suggest gross mistreatment. Personally, I would not think it would be something to celebrate, as a citizen of Canada, a country that doesn't approve of torturing our prisoners, traditionally.

What surprises me is you seem to think this is a courtroom and we are absolutely determining guilt
We are not . It is a discussion forum and we express the opinion we think there is guilt
And you tend to express the opinion there is no reason to assume guilt
It would appear you feel your opinions are acceptable and ours are not
Yet you are unable to provide one speck of information showing the possibility of innocence
I fail to see how that contributes to a true crime discussion forum

But hey, this isn't a courtroom, it's only the Internet. It's like a conversation between old friends, no one will ever judge you later for the things you say, it's not like the words are being recorded forever and ever. No one here ever has to feel bad if they advocate for the continued cruelty and suffering of another human being, or if they call some victim they have never met an alcoholic in denial, because it's all just gossip after all, what could it hurt? We are all just contributing in our own way, I think, even if we just want to nail down the exact amount it takes to constitute a lack of something. I don't think that there is any reason to deny someone else has made contributions just because we might not agree with them.

All just my opinion only.
 
  • #194
Personally, as a Canadian from a long line of Canadians, I find the term 'old stock Canadian' highly offensive. Should we now judge how Canadian someone is by how many generations their family may or may not have been here? Is there some sort of privilege and social standing that comes from being born into the 'right' Canadian family, and how does one go about accomplishing that? I had always thought that judging someone for the uncontrollable circumstances of their birth was wrong, whether it is to judge them on the colour of their skin, their gender, how many generations their family has lived where, or their family's financial status. I wonder, does it just make it more okay to be prejudiced against them since all of these old-timey families must be the same? Surely they are from the same old stock at least?

As an "old stock" Canadian DM had every advantage in life. He chose to screw up and throw that all away. No one is going to feel sorry for him for his own choices, when he could have chosen differently and lived quite happily.

What about the poor unfortunates who chose to be born to lesser families, the ones who may have only been here a couple of generations, how should we treat them, should they get more or less sympathy? I'm confused now. How many generation should be born here before we start to treat them differently? Or how about we all act like traditional Canadians and treat everyone equally no matter what family they were born into?

MS? His sister did quite well for herself in life. Why did he not do the same? MS has professionals and achievers in his family. MS's own lifestyle choices led to DUI and drug charges. Should we blame that on his parent's immigration status? Or MS's own choices in life?

When I look around I don't see the rest of us looking wraith, unkempt, unwashed and thin, that's not the same reality most of us here in Canada are living in. To me, hearing that a prisoner in solitary confinement had gone from previously healthy and clean to frail and dishevelled would suggest gross mistreatment. Personally, I would not think it would be something to celebrate, as a citizen of Canada, a country that doesn't approve of torturing our prisoners, traditionally.

I think the only thing torturing DM now is his own mind...thinking of all he has lost. Well, that's the price you pay.
 
  • #195
As an "old stock" Canadian DM had every advantage in life. He chose to screw up and throw that all away. No one is going to feel sorry for him for his own choices, when he could have chosen differently and lived quite happily.



MS? His sister did quite well for herself in life. Why did he not do the same? MS has professionals and achievers in his family. MS's own lifestyle choices led to DUI and drug charges. Should we blame that on his parent's immigration status? Or MS's own choices in life?



I think the only thing torturing DM now is his own mind...thinking of all he has lost. Well, that's the price you pay.

FWIW, "old stock" Canadians didn't have every advantage in life. They worked for everything to earn their rewards. Since the term reared it's ugly head and was used to gain political points during an election, I fail to see why only "new" Canadians should be granted any sympathies.

Why is MS treated differently? How many generations has his family been in Canada? I would think that his family has been here for a few generations as well and he is also "old stock" Canadian. If we shouldn't blame his parent's immigration status for his choices, why is DM's history always used against him? Is judgement based on, not only how long someone's family has been Canadian, but also the amount of money a family has?
 
  • #196
It's not necessary for the public to believe that DM is innocent.

It is only necessary that 12 jurors come in, forget about what they might have heard, assume DM is innocent in a theoretical and symbolic way, listen to all the evidence, and find guilt (or not, which is not likely going by averages and certainly not likely going by the circumstances heading into the trial 4 months from now.)

Once again, this is the thread for Laura's case. That trial will not happen until late 2016 or early 2017. A lot more than 4 months from now.
 
  • #197
FWIW, "old stock" Canadians didn't have every advantage in life. They worked for everything to earn their rewards. Since the term reared it's ugly head and was used to gain political points during an election, I fail to see why only "new" Canadians should be granted any sympathies.

Did DM really work for everything to earn his rewards?

Why is MS treated differently? How many generations has his family been in Canada? I would think that his family has been here for a few generations as well and he is also "old stock" Canadian. If we shouldn't blame his parent's immigration status for his choices, why is DM's history always used against him? Is judgement based on, not only how long someone's family has been Canadian, but also the amount of money a family has?

It's about how easy DM had it before he decided to screw up his life, take the lives of three people, and afflict the lives of countless others.

As for the "close-knit" group of friends LE was looking at - apparently DM, MS, CN and MWJ based on arrests - there was something wrong with the mentality of the whole group IMO.
 
  • #198
Once again, this is the thread for Laura's case. That trial will not happen until late 2016 or early 2017. A lot more than 4 months from now.

12 weeks until the next court date for LB
15 weeks until the PI for WM
17 weeks until trial for TB (4 months)
 
  • #199
Once again, this is the thread for Laura's case. That trial will not happen until late 2016 or early 2017. A lot more than 4 months from now.

12 weeks until the next court date for LB
15 weeks until the PI for WM
17 weeks until trial for TB (4 months)
Thank you for the reminder. So, are you guys suggesting that we should close this thread until then?
 
  • #200
What surprises me is you seem to think this is a courtroom and we are absolutely determining guilt
We are not .

People may not absolutely be determining guilt , but it sure seems like it by reading certain posts. IMO


It is a discussion forum and we express the opinion we think there is guilt
And you tend to express the opinion there is no reason to assume guilt
It would appear you feel your opinions are acceptable and ours are not
Yet you are unable to provide one speck of information showing the possibility of innocence

Thinking someone is guilty is precisely that, thinking they are guilty. It shows that they are not thought of as being innocent. I do happen to believe that judging people prior to trial is a very judgmental approach to justice. But that is my opinion.

I also think that those who keep an open mind and come from a presumption of innocence are coming from a more neutral perspective, which I happen to find more just and fair. But again that is my opinion only.

I fail to see how that contributes to a true crime discussion forum

It contributes to a true crime discussion forum by balancing the discussion, rather than have everyone ready to convict or looking forward to a guilty verdict.

I do feel that my opinions are acceptable, in fact I think everyones opinion is valid - as an opinion. Many 'specks' of circumstantial want, together with mentions of suspicion at certain 'evidence' and not forgetting the lack of body have been brought to the discussion table. In my opinion these areas are as valid as any other claimed circumstantial position. Again MOO
 
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