Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[UKGuy]

This is easier to explain if you take the "Intruder" out of the picture. There IS no significance to the panties if an intruder commited the crime. Not only would an intruder not know where her panties were kept, nor would an intruder take a chance going back to her room to look, with a sibling asleep down the hall and parents upstairs. And NO intruder would ever know there were new size 12 panties identical to the ones JBR was wearing wrapped in a box in the basement.
The size 12s point to only one thing- redressing by a parent. And it didn't have to be PR who unwrapped the boxes- she could easily have told her husband to do it- of course, as the boxes were already wrapped, they would have to be UNwrapped till the new panties were found.
Trying to put an intruder in this crime is like trying to put a square peg in a round hole. It just doesn't fit.
As far as the significance of the size 12 Wednesdays...I have exlplained this as well as it can be explained. The "Wednesday" was significant because the panties had to be the same as the ones she wore that day. The size 12 had NO particular significance, but was simply the only other pair in the home that said Wednesday. They could have been any size- it just happened that the gift panty set was a size 12.

DeeDee249,
So you reckon the day-of-the-week Wednesday was more important than the size?

The reason I ask is that the chosen size suggests immediately that JonBenet should not be wearing them?

but was simply the only other pair in the home that said Wednesday.

This we do not know.

Also it has never been stated anywhere that JonBenet was wearing a size-6 Wednesday pair to the Whites, for all we know they may have been a Monday pair, whatever. Also BPD has never released any information regarding the particular day-of-the-week underwear removed from the Ramsey household e.g. did they in fact recover a Wednesday pair? Also from memory no question regarding any missing size-6's was put to Patsy, go figure?


In other words our interpretation of the size-12's may not be what the stager had in mind?


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[UKGuy]

Yep, and Patsy was asked, in her 1998 interview, how often John played golf, and she said that she couldn't remember the last time that he played. That tells me that he was NOT an avid golfer...so why the heck would he need that precious golf bag??

Ames,
Why would the Ramsey's want to remove 6 pairs of brand new, unused, relatively neutral , in forensic terms, size-12's?


Then later Patsy tells the investigators she had them along, both originally e.g. they were in the house, and subsequently at another house, so she returned them, what?

 

[Ames]

Ames,
Why would the Ramsey's want to remove 6 pairs of brand new, unused, relatively neutral , in forensic terms, size-12's?


Then later Patsy tells the investigators she had them along, both originally e.g. they were in the house, and subsequently at another house, so she returned them, what?

Maybe they were afraid that there would be DNA on the package or the unused panties...from one of them (Patsy or John). That is the only thing that I can think of. If they had of just opened the pack and dumped them in JB's drawer, and threw the packaging away...investigators would have thought that was strange, because she wore a size 6. If they had of left the package with the missing panties...and the INSIDE of the package could have been tested for fingerprints...so they just hid them (they were "missing"), until they thought that it was safe to return them. My guess is the reason that they decided to finally return them, is because they knew how ridiculous it was for the investigators to think, that the "intruder" took the pack with HIM, and they wanted it to look like they were cooperating with the them.

 

[JMO8778]

So you reckon the day-of-the-week Wednesday was more important than the size?

the other thing about that is not just that they said Wed. on them....they were NEW. They were unstained..was this also important to the stager? Or was it just the fact there would be no Ramsey DNA on them since they were new? Or was it both?

 

[UKGuy]

the other thing about that is not just that they said Wed. on them....they were NEW. They were unstained..was this also important to the stager? Or was it just the fact there would be no Ramsey DNA on them since they were new? Or was it both?

JMO8778,

It could be both, but I suspect we might have the right idea but the wrong interpretation, since it fits our particular theory?

There were other size-6 underwear that would fit the clean category, also why no Ramsey dna, when its all over JonBenet?

I think there might be another reason for the size-12's?


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[UKGuy]

Maybe they were afraid that there would be DNA on the package or the unused panties...from one of them (Patsy or John). That is the only thing that I can think of. If they had of just opened the pack and dumped them in JB's drawer, and threw the packaging away...investigators would have thought that was strange, because she wore a size 6. If they had of left the package with the missing panties...and the INSIDE of the package could have been tested for fingerprints...so they just hid them (they were "missing"), until they thought that it was safe to return them. My guess is the reason that they decided to finally return them, is because they knew how ridiculous it was for the investigators to think, that the "intruder" took the pack with HIM, and they wanted it to look like they were cooperating with the them.

Ames,
DNA on the package, and fingerprints , yes possibly, from memory the pants come in a tube? So why not just wipe it clean, even run it under the tap then bin it, and place the remaining size-12's in JonBenet's panty drawer e.g. was this part of an abandonded plan?

The size-12's do not make sense really, since their size gives the game away, and that the rest vanished raises a large red-flag!


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[JMO8778]

JMO8778,

It could be both, but I suspect we might have the right idea but the wrong interpretation, since it fits our particular theory?

There were other size-6 underwear that would fit the clean category, also why no Ramsey dna, when its all over JonBenet?

I think there might be another reason for the size-12's?


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then what?
the only reasons I can think of are the size 12's are new,clean,unused and unstained,w/ no Ramsey DNA on them (from a parent)...and as a bonus,one pair said Wed. on them.(and I suspect that was just a bonus,not the real reason they were chosen).

 

[UKGuy]

then what?
the only reasons I can think of are the size 12's are new,clean,unused and unstained,w/ no Ramsey DNA on them (from a parent)...and as a bonus,one pair said Wed. on them.(and I suspect that was just a bonus,not the real reason they were chosen).

JMO8778,
I'm not being ironic, but why dress a murder victim in new,clean,unused and unstained,underwear with no Ramsey DNA on them, the last bit cannot be sustained since JR's shirt fibres were discovered inside those panties.

Playing Devil's Advocate: The standard reasons for the size-12's dont really seem to stack up, unless you want to play the panic and confusion card?

I have a notion for another reason, but need to expand on it just to make sure its sensible.


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[Blondieskatz]

It wouldn't have been an "odd" thing to find PR's dna on JB's panties. Afterall, she was her mother. A mother who helped dress her daughter, put her clothes away or whatever.

So I think PR wanted the panties changed because of the blood or maybe there was DNA from JR even though I don't go with the theory that JB was sexually abused by JR. I can't see what the significance of the size 12 would mean unless it was because of the Wednesday. What if there hadn't been any size 12 panties? Then what?

 

[coloradokares]

It wouldn't have been an "odd" thing to find PR's dna on JB's panties. Afterall, she was her mother. A mother who helped dress her daughter, put her clothes away or whatever.

So I think PR wanted the panties changed because of the blood or maybe there was DNA from JR even though I don't go with the theory that JB was sexually abused by JR. I can't see what the significance of the size 12 would mean unless it was because of the Wednesday. What if there hadn't been any size 12 panties? Then what?

She would have been discarded like a broken doll without the benefit of underwear. The story would have been they were taken by the intruder and she was left the way she was found. Which might have been actually more plausble than the size 12s.

 

[Rhett]

O.K. don't jump me here but what if . . . the kids at the White's party got off away from the adults and played some kind of game. I'm not suggesting sexual games though it could have been but maybe dress up. What if the girls switched underwear. Now, to us adults that would be gross but to kids, no big deal. Was there any bigger or older girls at the White's party? Also, this would explain why the rest of the panties were not at the house in the beginning. Because Patsy didn't know what to make of the size 12 panties she bought more later and removed the Wednesday pair from the new pack. This also might explain why there was foreign dna in the underwear. Just a thought.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
I'm not being ironic, but why dress a murder victim in new,clean,unused and unstained,underwear with no Ramsey DNA on them, the last bit cannot be sustained since JR's shirt fibres were discovered inside those panties.

I imagine JR didn't realize that though,or he would have went to great pains to get them off.

Playing Devil's Advocate: the standard reasons for the size-12's dont really seem to stack up, unless you want to play the panic and confusion card?

I have a notion for another reason, but need to expand on it just to make sure its sensible.


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ok,let's hear it when you have the time.I'm open to anything else,(other than of course,an intruder did it).

 

[JMO8778]

It wouldn't have been an "odd" thing to find PR's dna on JB's panties. Afterall, she was her mother. A mother who helped dress her daughter, put her clothes away or whatever.

of course not,but it appears the stager was concerned about that? unless it was just the fact the new underwear had no stains on them,as it was said the rest of the underwear in her drawers did.

 

[DeeDee249]

Kids play games- true. But don't you think if the Whites (ESPECIALLY the Whites) had found that JBR and their daughter Daphne had switched panties they would have told police?
Keep in mind that if that was the case, the Whites would be in posession of panties with JBR's DNA on them, as any panties she wore when alive would have. The panty-switch doesn't make sense to me. Not that kids don't do it, but that it wasn't done THAT night. As a matter of fact, I recall reading that FW said that JBR often went home from his house wearing Daphne's panties because she had had an "accident" at his house. So he and his wife would know if there was a pair of panties that did not belong to their family.

Don't make too much of the SIZE of the panties. They were RIGHT THERE in the basement- extra panties that said Wednesday. They could have been any size. If they were too small, they would have been put on the body. It just so happened that niece Jenny wore size 12.
They were so concerned with making it look like she was taken from bed that they didn't stop to figure that if they had left her naked or without panties it would give the kidnapping theory more credence.
As far as us not knowing exactly what panties she was wearing when she got home from the Whites, correct- we don't know for sure. But the fact that JBR had been staged in panties that clearly were not hers indicates to ME that what she was wearing was a smaller size of those exact panties.

 

[Ames]

Ames,
DNA on the package, and fingerprints , yes possibly, from memory the pants come in a tube? So why not just wipe it clean, even run it under the tap then bin it, and place the remaining size-12's in JonBenet's panty drawer e.g. was this part of an abandonded plan?

The size-12's do not make sense really, since their size gives the game away, and that the rest vanished raises a large red-flag!


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I thought that the panties came in a square looking package. There is a poster over on FFJ that bought some...they were called Bloomies...and that's the kind of package that they came in, she posted a picture of them. My guess is, the Ramsey that took the panties out of the package, had to dig for the Wednesday one, because they were in order. Sunday came first, of course. Maybe they thought that there could have been fingerprints on the INSIDE as well as the outside of the package. I think that the reason that they didn't just dump the remaining size 12's in JB's drawer, is that would look suspicious to investigators since JB wore a size 6. So they just "misplaced" the rest of the size 12's, and the packaging. I have often wondered if Patsy bought ANOTHER pack, and took out the Wednesday pair...and then gave the remaining ones to investigators. In other words...the pack that she "found" in a moving crate...was acually another pack that she had bought after the murder.

 

[UKGuy]

I thought that the panties came in a square looking package. There is a poster over on FFJ that bought some...they were called Bloomies...and that's the kind of package that they came in, she posted a picture of them. My guess is, the Ramsey that took the panties out of the package, had to dig for the Wednesday one, because they were in order. Sunday came first, of course. Maybe they thought that there could have been fingerprints on the INSIDE as well as the outside of the package. I think that the reason that they didn't just dump the remaining size 12's in JB's drawer, is that would look suspicious to investigators since JB wore a size 6. So they just "misplaced" the rest of the size 12's, and the packaging. I have often wondered if Patsy bought ANOTHER pack, and took out the Wednesday pair...and then gave the remaining ones to investigators. In other words...the pack that she "found" in a moving crate...was acually another pack that she had bought after the murder.

Ames,
They could come in a flat package, somewhere I remember a tube with the days-of-the-week appearing in chronological order?

I have often wondered if Patsy bought ANOTHER pack, and took out the Wednesday pair...and then gave the remaining ones to investigators. In other words...the pack that she "found" in a moving crate...was acually another pack that she had bought after the murder.

Yes could have been, similar to the doll ordered at Access Graphics.

The issue for me regarding the size-12's is that the original explanations offered by some popular theories are not consistent with the forensic evidence.

There are two main theories e.g. Toilet Rage and Sexual Rage both leading to JonBenet's death.

This assumes JonBenet's initial injuries were not unintended or accidental else medical assistance would have been sought, as was on a prior occassion JonBenet was accidently hit by Burke?

Now the Sexual Rage theory given what we know seems the most likely, but lacks a smoking gun, and could be confused with staging.

The Toilet Rage theory appears to be a coherent explanation for a mother's momentary loss of control, the subsequent staging and media interviews etc. But, imo, it is inconsistent with a lot of the forensic evidence.

As I mentioned before there is a lacuna or gap in all the main theories, so what I might attempt is to bridge this and incorporate it into a revised version of the Toilet Rage theory. If I start to become bogged down in detail I'll post an outline instead.

Another element I am speculating on, is the degree to which JonBenet's death became part of a conspiracy e.g. I reckon the residents colluded, or conspired to evade justice, but am also convinced that other parties also agreed to collude and conspire to remove, and misrepresent forensic evidence.

So a prelimanary timeline might be:

Homicide
Staging
Conspiracy

Where we are concentrating on the latter two items to draw our evidence from thus generating speculative theories?


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[JMO8778]

Like who else agreed to remove or hide forensic evidence? As far as I can tell,Aunt Pam was the only one?
I do believe they had help w/ conspiracy though,of course,that's why the phone records were erased.I also can't help but think that w/ JR trying to account for his prints on the walk-in fridge,and the RN stating JB's 'remains will be denied',that he'd thought about or did place her body in there,with the hope that someone would help him hide her somewhere.(not necessarily outside).

 

[UKGuy]

Like who else agreed to remove or hide forensic evidence? As far as I can tell,Aunt Pam was the only one?
I do believe they had help w/ conspiracy though,of course,that's why the phone records were erased.I also can't help but think that w/ JR trying to account for his prints on the walk-in fridge,and the RN stating JB's 'remains will be denied',that he'd thought about or did place her body in there,with the hope that someone would help him hide her somewhere.(not necessarily outside).

JMO8778,

Forensic evidence can be removed by not admitting it in the first instance e.g. the phone records.

Also it can be obscured by the promotion of another theory, since everyone is now looking for other evidence.

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[UKGuy]

Timeline:

1996
December 25: JonBenet is last seen alive at 10:30 pm when her parents put her to bed.
December 26: 5:52 am, Patsy Ramsey calls 911, and reports JonBenet has been kidnapped.
December 26: 6:00 am, the police arrive at the Ramsey house.
December 26: 1:00 pm, JonBenet's body is discovered.

The Lacuna:
In most of the theories JonBenet is dead by 1 am. I estimate it might take one hour to clean her up, and another hour to author the ransom note, it only takes minutes to place her in the wine-cellar, so its now approximately 3 am, so what has happened between her death and the 911 call? Thats like three hours, this is what I refer to as the lacuna or gap.

Time of Death:
Conventional opinion judges that JonBenet died within an hour or two of consuming the pineapple, suggesting 1 or 2 am as her time of death, this approximates to the standard time for rigor to set in. But JonBenet is not an adult her body mass is very much less, so would this along with being wrapped in blankets have reduced the time for rigor to set in? Also consider our assumptions about the pineapple digestion rate, where Jay Dix, Pathologist opines:

The use of gastric contents helps to determine the type of food last eaten. It is not very helpful in determining
time of death because of the variability in how a person’s system deals with different amounts and types of
food.

That is because the postmortem interval is many hours here, as much as twelve hours, then this underlines that JonBenet's Time Of Death is very much an estimate.

So consider instead that the Ramsey's rose early to catch their vacation flight, with Burke and JonBenet snacking in the breakfast bar, then a wet bed is discovered somehow triggering Toilet Rage, with minimal time left, what we understand as the staging process is undertaken?

 

[DeeDee249]

Timeline:

1996
December 25: JonBenet is last seen alive at 10:30 pm when her parents put her to bed.
December 26: 5:52 am, Patsy Ramsey calls 911, and reports JonBenet has been kidnapped.
December 26: 6:00 am, the police arrive at the Ramsey house.
December 26: 1:00 pm, JonBenet's body is discovered.

The Lacuna:
In most of the theories JonBenet is dead by 1 am. I estimate it might take one hour to clean her up, and another hour to author the ransom note, it only takes minutes to place her in the wine-cellar, so its now approximately 3 am, so what has happened between her death and the 911 call? Thats like three hours, this is what I refer to as the lacuna or gap.

Time of Death:
Conventional opinion judges that JonBenet died within an hour or two of consuming the pineapple, suggesting 1 or 2 am as her time of death, this approximates to the standard time for rigor to set in. But JonBenet is not an adult her body mass is very much less, so would this along with being wrapped in blankets have reduced the time for rigor to set in? Also consider our assumptions about the pineapple digestion rate, where Jay Dix, Pathologist opines:

That is because the postmortem interval is many hours here, as much as twelve hours, then this underlines that JonBenet's Time Of Death is very much an estimate.

So consider instead that the Ramsey's rose early to catch their vacation flight, with Burke and JonBenet snacking in the breakfast bar, then a wet bed is discovered somehow triggering Toilet Rage, with minimal time left, what we understand as the staging process is undertaken?

With that last theory, PR's rage attack on JBR happens with the family up and awake. BR would have certainly seen or at least heard it, and not from under his bedcovers either.
I understand about the variations for digestion in determining TOD, but the rigor mortis at the time of autopsy ( which took place on the morning of Dec. 27th, about 36 hours from the presumed TOD of between midnight Dec.25 and 1am Dec 26th.) suggests it was already beginning to pass off on the mouth (shown open at autopsy) and arm joints (llsted as mild +1-+2 and shown as laying flat on the table). It was more advanced in the legs, which take longer to reach full degree. I'd say the legs were moderate. Now, FULL rigor had already come and gone- while poor JBR lay in the morgue. If the coroner could manipulate her fingers to see the palms without breaking the joints and lay her arms flat, rigor had passed in that area.
It takes about 12 hours to reach full rigor, 12 hours that full rigor is maintained, and 12 hours to pass off in the same order it forms- (smallest muscle groups first: eyelids, jaw, etc. largest last -hips, knees, etc then reverse that order).
This varies with room temperature- Bodies in the cold take longer to complete the cycle, bodies in warm places (like outdoor in warm sun in hot climates) complete faster, as the warm temps hasten the decomposition of the muscle fibers themselves and that breaks rigor.
JBR was in the basement, but as JR said, it was not cold down there, and even offerd that as an excuse for the window being opened- he said they did that sometimes because the basement got too warm.
So we can assume JBR's body was neither too cold or too warm in the surrounding air.
I'd say the 36-hour arc was just about right, placing the TOD between 12-1am Dec 26.