Lawrence Smith Replies - If you can say that

[JMO8778]

BR was still in bed during the start of the 911 call,too,it appears.he only woke up when he heard Patsy screaming.so in consideration w/ all the other evidence,I agree w. Deedee,and that what was est. to be her TOD as well.(I think per Dr. Spitz?)

 

[DeeDee249]

BR was still in bed during the start of the 911 call,too,it appears.he only woke up when he heard Patsy screaming.so in consideration w/ all the other evidence,I agree w. Deedee,and that what was est. to be her TOD as well.(I think per Dr. Spitz?)

Not just Dr. Spitz, but several of the coroners who examined the case agree. Unfortunately- Coroner Meyer, the one coroner who SHOULD have put an ETOD, neglected to perform the most basic and most important procedures that should be done at first encounter with a corpse- at the time the coroner pronounces the person dead and signs the death certificate.
These two procedures which would have eliminated any conjecture about the time of death were:
1. Liver stab- a special probe inserted into the liver takes the core body temperature. There is a formula which shows how long a body takes to reach the temperature of the surrounding air, whether cold or warm, indoors or out. The body loses heat at death very predictably, and outside factors like clothing, whether wet or dry, and the room they were found in are all factored in. Meyer did not do this important procedure.
2. Eye fluid check- a small amount of the vitrious matter of the eyeball is removed and the potassium level is measured. This is even more reliable than the liver stab, as it is directly related to well-known post-mortem chemical changes in the eyeball, and not dependent on variables like clothing or ambient air temperature.
Done together, and along with the degrees of livor and rigor mortis, they can establish beyond reasonable doubt, a time of death in a body that had not yet begun "wet" decomposition, which JBR's corpse had not reached.
When trying to determine TOD in bodies that have reached "wet" decomposition, the TOD can be determined very accurately, and hold up in court, by identifying the instars (stages of generations) of insect infestation, which occur in all seasons, temperatures, indoors or out.

Meyer chose NOT to do these two very quick and simple tests. Only he knows why. He spent, according to his own notes, 10 minutes with JBR that night at her home. He may not have even brought the equpiment with him to do the tests, though standard procedure when coming to pronounce a person dead. He has never said, and we will never know.

 

[JMO8778]

Not just Dr. Spitz, but several of the coroners who examined the case agree. Unfortunately- Coroner Meyer, the one coroner who SHOULD have put an ETOD, neglected to perform the most basic and most important procedures that should be done at first encounter with a corpse- at the time the coroner pronounces the person dead and signs the death certificate.
These two procedures which would have eliminated any conjecture about the time of death were:
1. Liver stab- a special probe inserted into the liver takes the core body temperature. There is a formula which shows how long a body takes to reach the temperature of the surrounding air, whether cold or warm, indoors or out. The body loses heat at death very predictably, and outside factors like clothing, whether wet or dry, and the room they were found in are all factored in. Meyer did not do this important procedure.
2. Eye fluid check- a small amount of the vitrious matter of the eyeball is removed and the potassium level is measured. This is even more reliable than the liver stab, as it is directly related to well-known post-mortem chemical changes in the eyeball, and not dependent on variables like clothing or ambient air temperature.
Done together, and along with the degrees of livor and rigor mortis, they can establish beyond reasonable doubt, a time of death in a body that had not yet begun "wet" decomposition, which JBR's corpse had not reached.
When trying to determine TOD in bodies that have reached "wet" decomposition, the TOD can be determined very accurately, and hold up in court, by identifying the instars (stages of generations) of insect infestation, which occur in all seasons, temperatures, indoors or out.

Meyer chose NOT to do these two very quick and simple tests. Only he knows why. He spent, according to his own notes, 10 minutes with JBR that night at her home. He may not have even brought the equpiment with him to do the tests, though standard procedure when coming to pronounce a person dead. He has never said, and we will never know.

I know,and that's a darn shame.It was a child murder..what was he thinking???!!! ..or rather,was he told *not to do these things???? and to be so careless w/ the nail clippers as well???
I recall that when AP went on her raid of the house,someone(I believe it was the driver of the police car) in LE was told not to worry about it...b/c the cops 'know who did it'.perhaps he was told something similar,and that these tests didn't need to be done,b/c a TOD had already been established? or perhaps he was lied to and told that they had already been done?

 

[DeeDee249]

I know,and that's a darn shame.It was a child murder..what was he thinking???!!! ..or rather,was he told *not to do these things???? and to be so careless w/ the nail clippers as well???
I recall that when AP went on her raid of the house,someone(I believe it was the driver of the police car) in LE was told not to worry about it...b/c the cops 'know who did it'.perhaps he was told something similar,and that these tests didn't need to be done,b/c a TOD had already been established? or perhaps he was lied to and told that they had already been done?

Could have been either way. Sad, isn't it?

 

[UKGuy]

With that last theory, PR's rage attack on JBR happens with the family up and awake. BR would have certainly seen or at least heard it, and not from under his bedcovers either.
I understand about the variations for digestion in determining TOD, but the rigor mortis at the time of autopsy ( which took place on the morning of Dec. 27th, about 36 hours from the presumed TOD of between midnight Dec.25 and 1am Dec 26th.) suggests it was already beginning to pass off on the mouth (shown open at autopsy) and arm joints (llsted as mild +1-+2 and shown as laying flat on the table). It was more advanced in the legs, which take longer to reach full degree. I'd say the legs were moderate. Now, FULL rigor had already come and gone- while poor JBR lay in the morgue. If the coroner could manipulate her fingers to see the palms without breaking the joints and lay her arms flat, rigor had passed in that area.
It takes about 12 hours to reach full rigor, 12 hours that full rigor is maintained, and 12 hours to pass off in the same order it forms- (smallest muscle groups first: eyelids, jaw, etc. largest last -hips, knees, etc then reverse that order).
This varies with room temperature- Bodies in the cold take longer to complete the cycle, bodies in warm places (like outdoor in warm sun in hot climates) complete faster, as the warm temps hasten the decomposition of the muscle fibers themselves and that breaks rigor.
JBR was in the basement, but as JR said, it was not cold down there, and even offerd that as an excuse for the window being opened- he said they did that sometimes because the basement got too warm.
So we can assume JBR's body was neither too cold or too warm in the surrounding air.
I'd say the 36-hour arc was just about right, placing the TOD between 12-1am Dec 26.

DeeDee249,
I agree, the early morning death was an attempt to reconcile some unexplained factors, having to reduce the period for rigor just to fit the theory was a red flag.

So back to the gap or lacuna its another reason why I find the Toilet Rage theory unsatisfactory.

That is there appears to be a long gap between JonBenet's TOD and her placement in the wine-cellar. Now I am going to assume her killer did not sit around drinking coffee, so why this apparent time-gap?

The size-12's suggest she was already redressed and cleaned up e.g. this staging was complete, due to the postmortem urine-release and the mismatched blood-stains.

Also the garrote construction and application suggest it was an element added just prior to JonBenet being placed into the wine-cellar.

Along with wrapping JonBenet in those blankets, which occurred after she was redressed and wiped down, these elements e.g. wiping her down, constructing the garrote, applying it, wrapping her in blankets, placing her in the wine-cellar, probably took no more than 15-20 minutes?

Lets assume it took an hour to author the ransom note, including the drafts, then the wine-cellar staging probably took about an hour and a half to complete?

So it appears JonBenet's killer had plenty time to remove forensic evidence and stage a fake crime-scene, so why was she left wearing urine-soaked underwear and longjohns, with the underwear displaying blood-stains, that had been wiped from her thighs, and her barbie-nitegown left lying next to her body, but the flashlight was removed?

This possibly suggests that there had been a prior staging and that the wine-cellar was the last in a sequence? So could a prior staging have focused on Lou Smit's Intruder Theory, since patently he was fed this theory by John Ramsey.

Here is an account of their first meeting:

On June 6, 1997, three months into his work on the case, Smit did his daily drive to the Ramsey house to sit and think. This time, though, he bumped into the Ramseys themselves, who were staying with nearby neighbors.

Smit and the couple waved to one another, and both parties pulled over. After some chatting, John asked Smit if he would pray with them. Smit suggested they do it inside his van. Smit said Ramsey's prayer was to the point: "I pray that someday this nightmare will end and we will find the killer of our daughter." Smit then wrote up a report of the encounter.

So could the broken window, the various artefacts found in the basement e.g. photographs, JAR's suitcase, all have been part of a prior staging intended to suggest an intruder broke in, assaulted and killed JonBenet?

 

[JMO8778]

JB's arms seem to have been in rigor as well when they were tied so loosely,yet apparently unable to be moved to a more believable position,such as in front of,or behind her.So apparently there was a large gap of time from the TOD until that was done(?)

 

[UKGuy]

JB's arms seem to have been in rigor as well when they were tied so loosely,yet apparently unable to be moved to a more believable position,such as in front of,or behind her.So apparently there was a large gap of time from the TOD until that was done(?)

JMO8778,
I agree, maybe this is why the barbie-gown was never placed on her either? This large gap of time is the lacuna in all the popular theories. We know it is there due to the forensic evidence, so why was better use not made of this time to present a more coherent cime-scene staging? Its as if the Ramsey's rose to find JonBenet dead and quickly fabricated the wine-cellar crime-scene?

It almost suggests that Burke was JonBenet's killer, and that the staging was a faite accompli?

imo Burke was already awake that morning and was ordered back to bed and told to act like he was sleeping, as a potential witness this will have been the rationale for moving him out of the house as quickly as possible?

If Patsy killed JonBenet around 1 am or so what was she doing the rest of the night? Even cleaning up JonBenet and say placing her into her own bed would take less than half-an-hour?


.

 

[JMO8778]

JMO8778,
I agree, maybe this is why the barbie-gown was never placed on her either? This large gap of time is the lacuna in all the popular theories. We know it is there due to the forensic evidence, so why was better use not made of this time to present a more coherent cime-scene staging? Its as if the Ramsey's rose to find JonBenet dead and quickly fabricated the wine-cellar crime-scene?

It almost suggests that Burke was JonBenet's killer, and that the staging was a faite accompli?

imo Burke was already awake that morning and was ordered back to bed and told to act like he was sleeping, as a potential witness this will have been the rationale for moving him out of the house as quickly as possible?

I see what you're saying,but I still don't think BR did it...the time that the scream was heard,the flashlight was seen in the kitchen and lights that were normally on were off- this was all early on in the night,around midnight or so?
IMO BR was awakened by Patsy during the 911 call,and then sent back to bed.

If Patsy killed JonBenet around 1 am or so what was she doing the rest of the night? Even cleaning up JonBenet and say placing her into her own bed would take less than half-an-hour?


.

I think they were in a state of panic,totally confused as to what to do next...and they spent that time trying to come up with a plan.And perhaps did more than one staging,and they (well,JR,rather) made phone calls as well..and they may have had to wait till 5am or so bf they could get ahold of anyone.
Even so,with that large gap of time,the 911 call came in rather late in accordance w. their previous plans...so late that it isn't even believable.(No way would anyone have gotten up so late for such a trip-nor would JR have let Patsy sleep,Patsy wouldn't have tried to make coffee,etc...).So,it appears that to them,they were running *out of time instead? At least during the time bf the 911 call...I would imagine that to them,the night passed all too quickly.

 

[Blondieskatz]

I agree with you JMO about the R's being in a state of panic. They proably spent a lot of time tryng ti figure out what to do.

I wonder if PR was responsible did JR try to talk her into doing the right thing and call for help? You can only imagine the "what if's" and "maybe we should do this" that was discussed. That's proably where your missing time is.

 

[UKGuy]

I see what you're saying,but I still don't think BR did it...the time that the scream was heard,the flashlight was seen in the kitchen and lights that were normally on were off- this was all early on in the night,around midnight or so?
IMO BR was awakened by Patsy during the 911 call,and then sent back to bed.



I think they were in a state of panic,totally confused as to what to do next...and they spent that time trying to come up with a plan.And perhaps did more than one staging,and they (well,JR,rather) made phone calls as well..and they may have had to wait till 5am or so bf they could get ahold of anyone.
Even so,with that large gap of time,the 911 call came in rather late in accordance w. their previous plans...so late that it isn't even believable.(No way would anyone have gotten up so late for such a trip-nor would JR have let Patsy sleep,Patsy wouldn't have tried to make coffee,etc...).So,it appears that to them,they were running *out of time instead? At least during the time bf the 911 call...I would imagine that to them,the night passed all too quickly.

JMO8778,
They sure left it late to call 911, as per the vacation flight etc. Sure there would initially be some andrenalin and panic, but eventually some plan of action was concieved. So during this lacuna, and prior to JonBenet being garroted in the wine-cellar, was JonBenet still alive, did they know this and deny her medical assistance? The fluid seeping from her mouth/nose would definitely suggest internal injuries, so JonBenet's condition was evident.

imo JR constructed a prior staging based around an intruder break in, with the possible intention of deposting her body outdoors, for some unknown reason this was abandoned very late in the day?

The only other staging is likely to be a staged crime-scene in JonBenet's bedroom, hence the disarray on the floor etc?

Burke is suspect No. 3, but I guess there is nothing to place him at the crime-scene, not unless that is his shoe-print on floor, even then where is the motive, surely any accidental injury would have had JonBenet rushed to ER?

That leaves PR and JR as the prime suspects, with both of them linked to the crime-scene, and assuming Patsy did not wipe JonBenet down with John's Israeli shirt, John is linked to JonBenet's genital region, whereas Patsy is linked to the associated staging. You would have thought Patsy would have been the person to wipe down JonBenet, more so if she had actually killed her, accidently or not?


.

 

[JMO8778]

I agree with you JMO about the R's being in a state of panic. They proably spent a lot of time tryng ti figure out what to do.

I wonder if PR was responsible did JR try to talk her into doing the right thing and call for help? You can only imagine the "what if's" and "maybe we should do this" that was discussed. That's proably where your missing time is.

later on at the Fernie's,JR was overheard to say "I'm so sorry,I'm so sorry...',and "I regret,I regret...".So I wonder if he regretted helping Patsy out of the mess she got herself into,rather than getting medical assistance for JB.At the time,he had no way of knowing the head injury would have been fatal anyway.Patsy probably begged and pleaded w. him to not get help due to the marks on JB's neck; the obvious fact she'd been manually strangled.

 

[JMO8778]

The only other staging is likely to be a staged crime-scene in JonBenet's bedroom, hence the disarray on the floor etc?

I think they just forgot about her room,and concentrated on her body and the WC.That is evident through the fact that although they said she'd been abducted from her bed,her bed was not made to look as if she'd been sleeping in it.Perhaps only the sheets were changed,and the rest forgotten about?I take it the disarray of her room is from Patsy struggling w. JB.

That leaves PR and JR as the prime suspects, with both of them linked to the crime-scene, and assuming Patsy did not wipe JonBenet down with John's Israeli shirt, John is linked to JonBenet's genital region, whereas Patsy is linked to the associated staging. You would have thought Patsy would have been the person to wipe down JonBenet, more so if she had actually killed her, accidently or not?


.

Well,the head injury is what killed her,as well as the strangulation, which contained Patsy's fiber evidence.(Edited to add),actually,Patsy's evidence *is in that region as well,IMO...the splinter is thought to have come from a paintbrush handle.A paint brush that belonged to Patsy (address that one,Hold) was used to make the garrote.So,I think she staged that area,to cause it to appear a sexual predator had abducted her.
I would still be willing to give JR a pass on molestation,since ST was closest to the evidence and didn't think that was the case.Perhaps JR just leaned over her,trying to help,and didn't even know he'd left any evidence ? The thing about molestation is that Patsy was thought to have been corporally punishing JB over her soiling issues.Would JR have molested her on top of that? I'm not sure that's likely.He may not have even known Patsy was doing that.That's why I think JR would have been better off coming clean about Patsy;there would be a whole lot less speculation over the molestation issue,I bet,if he'd done that.As it is,he's just made the whole situation even worse by lying about it,if indeed he wasn't molesting her.

 

[DeeDee249]

DeeDee249,
I agree, the early morning death was an attempt to reconcile some unexplained factors, having to reduce the period for rigor just to fit the theory was a red flag.

So back to the gap or lacuna its another reason why I find the Toilet Rage theory unsatisfactory.

That is there appears to be a long gap between JonBenet's TOD and her placement in the wine-cellar. Now I am going to assume her killer did not sit around drinking coffee, so why this apparent time-gap?

The size-12's suggest she was already redressed and cleaned up e.g. this staging was complete, due to the postmortem urine-release and the mismatched blood-stains.

Also the garrote construction and application suggest it was an element added just prior to JonBenet being placed into the wine-cellar.

Along with wrapping JonBenet in those blankets, which occurred after she was redressed and wiped down, these elements e.g. wiping her down, constructing the garrote, applying it, wrapping her in blankets, placing her in the wine-cellar, probably took no more than 15-20 minutes?

Lets assume it took an hour to author the ransom note, including the drafts, then the wine-cellar staging probably took about an hour and a half to complete?

So it appears JonBenet's killer had plenty time to remove forensic evidence and stage a fake crime-scene, so why was she left wearing urine-soaked underwear and longjohns, with the underwear displaying blood-stains, that had been wiped from her thighs, and her barbie-nitegown left lying next to her body, but the flashlight was removed?

This possibly suggests that there had been a prior staging and that the wine-cellar was the last in a sequence? So could a prior staging have focused on Lou Smit's Intruder Theory, since patently he was fed this theory by John Ramsey.

Here is an account of their first meeting:


So could the broken window, the various artefacts found in the basement e.g. photographs, JAR's suitcase, all have been part of a prior staging intended to suggest an intruder broke in, assaulted and killed JonBenet?

UKGuy, though we agree on some things- I disagree on these- I do not feel forensic evidence supports there being a long time between death and placement in the wineceller. If you read up on LIVOR mortis- if a body is moved before it becomes "fixed", a second pattern will develop OVER the first pattern. Any coroner can seen this, even one who is not also a Medical Examiner (MD). Meyer was both. There was only 1 livor pattern on JBR- with livor mortis on her back and the right side of her face. This supports how she was found in the wineceller. Her livor was described as "non-blanching" That means that when depressed with a finger or other object, there will NOT be a white spot that appears under the pressure point. It was fixed in just that one pattern, showing she was placed in position soon after death. Livor mortis can begin to form within munites of death. It is not affected by variations in ambient temperature or method of death- it is simply the result of the cessation of heart pumping/blood circulation. IF she was moved after death, it had to be quite a whille after death- after livor was fixed. That would be very close to the 911 call.

JBR had petechiae- many of them. They happen only when someone is alive when strangled. The garotte had to be placed on her when she was alive. This is non-variable. Not alive- NO petechiae. So there couldn't have been a long time between placement of the garotte and placement in the wineceller. The garotte was made in the basement with materials found in the basement. She was alive (though unconscious- and may have appeared dead) when she was strangled with the garotte. This is not just an opinion- it is forensic fact. The garotte could not have been placed on her corpse and made the red marks in the ligature furrow or the petechiae. There were also petechiae on her lungs- yet another indication she was strangled while alive.

The stagers never knew about the blood stains in the NEW panties. It was only a few drops-not enough to seep out on the long johns (it was NOT found in the crotch of the long johns) and if it wasn't on the long johns, it wasn't on the blanket(s).

The flashlight was removed because the stagers never turned on basement lights (too risky- neighbors may have seen) so it couldn't have been left in the wineceller. They needed it to get upstairs in the pitch darkness. They wiped it down in the kitchen, where it was found.

The suitcase- the items IN the suitcase- JAR's semen-stained blanket and a child's book- while the stagers would not have seen the stains (or JBR's hair, which was also found), I don't think JR would point a finger at his older son. There is confusion about the suitcase- it was placed there AFTER LE arrived, I recall. It wasn't there that morning when Officer French went there. Put there by JR on his "disappearance" that morning? Yes. To give creedence to "how the intruder got out". Yes. Silly- no adult could have used it to climb UP a wall and out that window without it falling over as they pushed off.

The pink barbie nightgown...hmmm...I am of 2 minds about this. Either it accidentally came out of the basement dryer (where the blankets were always washed and dried-NOT in the small set outside JBR's room) stuck to the blanket, and the stagers were unaware of it in the darkness OR
the stagers WANTED to remove the urine stained clothes and redress her in the nightgown but rigor mortis had advanced to the point that it was impossible to manipulate the body. Those of you unfamiliar with it may not realize just HOW stiff a body becomes. Not just stiff. REALLY hard. The process of rigor is at the cellular level- lack of oxygen causes calcium ions to be unable to pass through cell walls. Lactic acid builds up- the actin and myocin proteins actually LOCK the muscle fibers into a contracted position. The muscle tissue has to be actually TORN to move the joints. Not a pretty sight, or sound. By the time most autopsies are done- rigor is dissipating and secondary flaccidity has begun. (onset of decomposition of the cell walls).

 

[UKGuy]

UKGuy, though we agree on some things- I disagree on these- I do not feel forensic evidence supports there being a long time between death and placement in the wineceller. If you read up on LIVOR mortis- if a body is moved before it becomes "fixed", a second pattern will develop OVER the first pattern. Any coroner can seen this, even one who is not also a Medical Examiner (MD). Meyer was both. There was only 1 livor pattern on JBR- with livor mortis on her back and the right side of her face. This supports how she was found in the wineceller. Her livor was described as "non-blanching" That means that when depressed with a finger or other object, there will NOT be a white spot that appears under the pressure point. It was fixed in just that one pattern, showing she was placed in position soon after death. Livor mortis can begin to form within munites of death. It is not affected by variations in ambient temperature or method of death- it is simply the result of the cessation of heart pumping/blood circulation. IF she was moved after death, it had to be quite a whille after death- after livor was fixed. That would be very close to the 911 call.

JBR had petechiae- many of them. They happen only when someone is alive when strangled. The garotte had to be placed on her when she was alive. This is non-variable. Not alive- NO petechiae. So there couldn't have been a long time between placement of the garotte and placement in the wineceller. The garotte was made in the basement with materials found in the basement. She was alive (though unconscious- and may have appeared dead) when she was strangled with the garotte. This is not just an opinion- it is forensic fact. The garotte could not have been placed on her corpse and made the red marks in the ligature furrow or the petechiae. There were also petechiae on her lungs- yet another indication she was strangled while alive.

The stagers never knew about the blood stains in the NEW panties. It was only a few drops-not enough to seep out on the long johns (it was NOT found in the crotch of the long johns) and if it wasn't on the long johns, it wasn't on the blanket(s).

The flashlight was removed because the stagers never turned on basement lights (too risky- neighbors may have seen) so it couldn't have been left in the wineceller. They needed it to get upstairs in the pitch darkness. They wiped it down in the kitchen, where it was found.

The suitcase- the items IN the suitcase- JAR's semen-stained blanket and a child's book- while the stagers would not have seen the stains (or JBR's hair, which was also found), I don't think JR would point a finger at his older son. There is confusion about the suitcase- it was placed there AFTER LE arrived, I recall. It wasn't there that morning when Officer French went there. Put there by JR on his "disappearance" that morning? Yes. To give creedence to "how the intruder got out". Yes. Silly- no adult could have used it to climb UP a wall and out that window without it falling over as they pushed off.

The pink barbie nightgown...hmmm...I am of 2 minds about this. Either it accidentally came out of the basement dryer (where the blankets were always washed and dried-NOT in the small set outside JBR's room) stuck to the blanket, and the stagers were unaware of it in the darkness OR
the stagers WANTED to remove the urine stained clothes and redress her in the nightgown but rigor mortis had advanced to the point that it was impossible to manipulate the body. Those of you unfamiliar with it may not realize just HOW stiff a body becomes. Not just stiff. REALLY hard. The process of rigor is at the cellular level- lack of oxygen causes calcium ions to be unable to pass through cell walls. Lactic acid builds up- the actin and myocin proteins actually LOCK the muscle fibers into a contracted position. The muscle tissue has to be actually TORN to move the joints. Not a pretty sight, or sound. By the time most autopsies are done- rigor is dissipating and secondary flaccidity has begun. (onset of decomposition of the cell walls).

DeeDee249,

UKGuy, though we agree on some things- I disagree on these- I do not feel forensic evidence supports there being a long time between death and placement in the wineceller.

OK. So considering the Toilet Rage theory, it follows from your account that JonBenet was placed into the wine-cellar shortly after receiving her head injury, then garroted etc?

The stagers never knew about the blood stains in the NEW panties. It was only a few drops-not enough to seep out on the long johns (it was NOT found in the crotch of the long johns) and if it wasn't on the long johns, it wasn't on the blanket(s).

Of course they knew thats why she was wiped down, Coroner Meyer suggests so:

Det. Arndt informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that he observed red stains in the crotch area of the panties that the child was wearing at the time that the child's body was subjected to the external visual examination. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that the red stain appeared to be consistent with blood. Det. Arndt further informed Your Affiant that Dr. Meyer stated to her that after examining the panties (as described above), he observed the exterior pubic area of the child's body located next to the areas of the panties containing the red stains and found no visible reddish stains in the area. Dr. Meyer stated to Det. Arndt that his opinion is that the evidence observed is consistent with the child's public area having been wiped by a cloth.

That is someone wiped JonBenet down again after she had been redressed in those size-12's, and even if they had not, assuming she was vaginally assaulted either digitally or instrumentally with the paintbrush then this may have caused bleeding which was wiped away with a cloth?

The pink barbie nightgown...hmmm...I am of 2 minds about this. Either it accidentally came out of the basement dryer (where the blankets were always washed and dried-NOT in the small set outside JBR's room) stuck to the blanket, and the stagers were unaware of it in the darkness OR
the stagers WANTED to remove the urine stained clothes and redress her in the nightgown but rigor mortis had advanced to the point that it was impossible to manipulate the body.

JonBenet was garroted outside the wine-cellar door, she would have been wrapped up in the blankets on the floor there, then placed into the wine-cellar, the blankets would have needed to be unfurled, made flat etc before lying JonBenet on them, then she was wrapped papoose style, if the pink barbie nightgown had arrived accidentally how come it made it into the wine-cellar to deposit itself next to JonBenet, not beneath, or 4-feet away etc? Also if you feel there was no time-gap between her Toilet Rage incident and her being transferred to the wine-cellar how come the rigor was so far advanced, it may have prevented her being redressed in the nightgown? Thinking on this, if JonBenet's arms were above her head, would this not have made placing the nightgown on her easier than if her arms were down at her side, and her longjohns would have just rolled off?

The flashlight was removed because the stagers never turned on basement lights (too risky- neighbors may have seen) so it couldn't have been left in the wineceller. They needed it to get upstairs in the pitch darkness. They wiped it down in the kitchen, where it was found.

The point being the stager was forensically aware, and did not want to be linked to the basement via any fingerprints on the flashlight. I dont think switching the light on in the wine-cellar could have been seen outside the Ramsey house, doing so for a last minute survey would have been in tune with cleaning the flashlight, after all you have just fabricated a crime-scene.

JBR had petechiae- many of them. They happen only when someone is alive when strangled. The garotte had to be placed on her when she was alive. This is non-variable. Not alive- NO petechiae.

So this along with her liver mortis suggest she was killed in the basement, and not in the toilet?

 

[JMO8778]

JonBenet was garroted outside the wine-cellar door, she would have been wrapped up in the blankets on the floor there, then placed into the wine-cellar, the blankets would have needed to be unfurled, made flat etc before lying JonBenet on them, then she was wrapped papoose style, if the pink barbie nightgown had arrived accidentally how come it made it into the wine-cellar to deposit itself next to JonBenet, not beneath, or 4-feet away etc?

is it possible the gown was just overlooked? JR was questioned about the night vision goggles..perhaps if those were used,it was just forgotten about if a recheck (with the light on,as you suggest),wasn't done.

 

[UKGuy]

is it possible the gown was just overlooked? JR was questioned about the night vision goggles..perhaps if those were used,it was just forgotten about if a recheck (with the light on,as you suggest),wasn't done.

JMO8778,
Of course its possible, but after fabricating a fake crime-scene surely you would take one last look just to make sure, and even if you missed some minor detail, that her barbie-gown is left lying close by spoils the deception.

Also bear in mind that the blankets were required to be laid out on the floor, prior to JonBenet being wrapped in them, how come the barbie-gown was missed here. The only way I can see it occurring is if the barbie-gown lies beneath the laid out blankets, directly under her back, even then, as she is lifted the barbie-gowns presence should have been noticed?

If it had been a normally occupied room then missing the barbie-gown may have been understandable, but a deliberately faked crime-scene in a near empty room that is small in size?

 

[JMO8778]

what would be the purpose of leaving it there intentionally..to cause it to appear an intruder didn't have time to redress her?

 

[rashomon]

JMO8778,
Of course its possible, but after fabricating a fake crime-scene surely you would take one last look just to make sure, and even if you missed some minor detail, that her barbie-gown is left lying close by spoils the deception.

Also bear in mind that the blankets were required to be laid out on the floor, prior to JonBenet being wrapped in them, how come the barbie-gown was missed here. The only way I can see it occurring is if the barbie-gown lies beneath the laid out blankets, directly under her back, even then, as she is lifted the barbie-gowns presence should have been noticed?

If it had been a normally occupied room then missing the barbie-gown may have been understandable, but a deliberately faked crime-scene in a near empty room that is small in size?

We don't know whether JonBeent was actually wrapped in a blanket - we only have John Ramsey's word that this was so. But the blanket could simply have been thrown on the body.

 

[rashomon]

JonBenet was garroted outside the wine-cellar door, she would have been wrapped up in the blankets on the floor there, then placed into the wine-cellar, the blankets would have needed to be unfurled, made flat etc before lying JonBenet on them, then she was wrapped papoose style, if the pink barbie nightgown had arrived accidentally how come it made it into the wine-cellar to deposit itself next to JonBenet, not beneath, or 4-feet away etc? Also if you feel there was no time-gap between her Toilet Rage incident and her being transferred to the wine-cellar how come the rigor was so far advanced, it may have prevented her being redressed in the nightgown? Thinking on this, if JonBenet's arms were above her head, would this not have made placing the nightgown on her easier than if her arms were down at her side, and her longjohns would have just rolled off?



The point being the stager was forensically aware, and did not want to be linked to the basement via any fingerprints on the flashlight. I dont think switching the light on in the wine-cellar could have been seen outside the Ramsey house, doing so for a last minute survey would have been in tune with cleaning the flashlight, after all you have just fabricated a crime-scene.


So this along with her liver mortis suggest she was killed in the basement, and not in the toilet?

What do you mean by "killed in the toilet"???
She may have been attacked in her room (or in the bathroom) first, getting the head injury, and later died down in the basement aer the staging of the garrote scene.

 

[rashomon]

JonBenet was garroted outside the wine-cellar door, she would have been wrapped up in the blankets on the floor there, then placed into the wine-cellar, the blankets would have needed to be unfurled, made flat etc before lying JonBenet on them, then she was wrapped papoose style, if the pink barbie nightgown had arrived accidentally how come it made it into the wine-cellar to deposit itself next to JonBenet, not beneath, or 4-feet away etc? Also if you feel there was no time-gap between her Toilet Rage incident and her being transferred to the wine-cellar how come the rigor was so far advanced, it may have prevented her being redressed in the nightgown? Thinking on this, if JonBenet's arms were above her head, would this not have made placing the nightgown on her easier than if her arms were down at her side, and her longjohns would have just rolled off?



The point being the stager was forensically aware, and did not want to be linked to the basement via any fingerprints on the flashlight. I dont think switching the light on in the wine-cellar could have been seen outside the Ramsey house, doing so for a last minute survey would have been in tune with cleaning the flashlight, after all you have just fabricated a crime-scene.


So this along with her liver mortis suggest she was killed in the basement, and not in the toilet?

What do you mean by "killed in the toilet"???
She may have been attacked in her room (or in the bathroom) first, getting the head injury, and later died down in the basement after the staging of the garrote scene.