Learn Something New Every Day

[Seeker]

Not necessarily. Suppose the head bash immediately sent JonBenet into a deep coma where she was nearing death, with almost no pulse anymore - couldn't this have been the reason for only 7 to 8 ccs of blood being found under her scalp?

Unless her medulla oblongata, which regulates pulse, breathing, bloodflow, waste elimination etc was damaged her pulse wouldn't have been so reduced that only 7-8ccs (which is a very, very small amount) would have been there IMO.

Head wounds are notorious for bleeding profusely, plus there was no swelling of her brain which also inicates to me that the blow came after the strangulation. The brain's size frequently increases after a severe head injury. This is called brain swelling and occurs when there is an increase in the amount of blood to the brain.

Maybe this will explain better than I can...

 

[rashomon]

Unless her medulla oblongata, which regulates pulse, breathing, bloodflow, waste elimination etc was damaged her pulse wouldn't have been so reduced that only 7-8ccs (which is a very, very small amount) would have been there IMO.

Head wounds are notorious for bleeding profusely, plus there was no swelling of her brain which also inicates to me that the blow came after the strangulation. The brain's size frequently increases after a severe head injury. This is called brain swelling and occurs when there is an increase in the amount of blood to the brain.

Maybe this will explain better than I can...

Does the autopsy report say anything about JB's medulla oblongata being damaged? If yes, to which degree?
Or maybe 'subdural' and 'subarachnoid' bleedings (like in JB's case) don't bleed heavily in general?

 

[Seeker]

Does the autopsy report say anything about JB's medulla oblongata being damaged? If yes, to which degree?
Or maybe 'subdural' and 'subarachnoid' bleedings (like in JB's case) don't bleed heavily in general?

No it doesn't say anything about the medulla being damaged. The spinal cord would have protected it (medulla oblongata is the brainstem that connects to the spinal cord).

If you look at JB skull (not an easy task because it's horrible to look at) the crack was so large that there is no way, again just IMO, that there would not have been significant bleeding. Much more than just a mere 7-8 cc's...

 

[rashomon]

Some people consider the manner in which she was wiped down to be something a woman might do.

I believe the stager wiped her down to see if the wound she inflicted on JB's vagina would look convincing enough.

Her upper halve is staged to appear as if she is dressed in her day-clothes, even her hair is done up.

But what interest could a stager coming from the family have had to dress JonBenet in her day clothes? For this would imply a (very implausible imo) story where JonBenet was abducted while she and her whole family hadn't gone to bed yet on Christmas night.

There has been some discussion if JB's hair was done up the way it was because her roots were going to get a color touch-up.
But I think Patsy would have done that before Christmas, and not after. And the autopsy pictures from the back of JB's head seem to confirm this: they clearly show that her hair had already been freshly colored blond. JB's hair also appeared to be very thin, probably from all that frequent coloring and putting it on rollers. Poor child.

It has also been discussed whether the room in which JB was found (the wine cellar) was also the room in which the paint tray and brushes were kept. Obviously not. For housekeeper LHP did not even know that this room existed. But since Patsy had asked her to take her painting equipment down to the basement (which LHP did), she must have put it in another basement room than the wine cellar.

 

[Seeker]

It has also been discussed whether the room in which JB was found (the wine cellar) was also the room in which the paint tray and brushes were kept. Obviously not. For housekeeper LHP did not even know that this room existed. But since Patsy had asked her to take her painting equipment down to the basement (which LHP did), she must have put it in another basement room than the wine cellar.

Apparently LHP has contradicted herself on the existance of knowing about the little room dubbed the "wine celler"...

First she says she and Merv brought up the x-mas decorations that were kept down there, then she says she didn't even know it existed?

Puleaze!

I have often wondered if LHP has a drinking problem....one that makes her forget crucial details she's already stated.

 

[Solace]

no, that's not me...it's Tony Stewart, my favorite race car driver (NASCAR)

Ah hah!

 

[Solace]

Solace, it's the picture which poster RiverRat has in his/her signature on ForumsForJustice: where Patsy is kneeling beside JonBenet's grave. Not only does the photo look totally theatrical, but when I looked at Patsy's face with a magnifying glass, she looks far more aggressive than grieving to me, with her teeth showing almost like a snarling dog's.
And who knows if a part of Patsy didn't in fact blame JonBenet for having 'ruined' her life, having acted in a way which drove Patsy to kill her.

Thank you Rash. Well the 10:00 story is on tonight and tomorrow it is LKL abour Patsy. I am tuning in.

 

[UKGuy]

I believe the stager wiped her down to see if the wound she inflicted on JB's vagina would look convincing enough.


But what interest could a stager coming from the family have had to dress JonBenet in her day clothes? For this would imply a (very implausible imo) story where JonBenet was abducted while she and her whole family hadn't gone to bed yet on Christmas night.

There has been some discussion if JB's hair was done up the way it was because her roots were going to get a color touch-up.
But I think Patsy would have done that before Christmas, and not after. And the autopsy pictures from the back of JB's head seem to confirm this: they clearly show that her hair had already been freshly colored blond. JB's hair also appeared to be very thin, probably from all that frequent coloring and putting it on rollers. Poor child.

It has also been discussed whether the room in which JB was found (the wine cellar) was also the room in which the paint tray and brushes were kept. Obviously not. For housekeeper LHP did not even know that this room existed. But since Patsy had asked her to take her painting equipment down to the basement (which LHP did), she must have put it in another basement room than the wine cellar.

rashomon,

I believe the stager wiped her down to see if the wound she inflicted on JB's vagina would look convincing enough.

Yes could be, also removal of any forensic evidence is another motive e.g. the flashlight.

The more thought you give to the clothing aspect the more you realise its more complex.

imo her hair was restyled postmortem, but I cannot think what the motive was, is it possible that she was left wearing the white gap top because rigor-mortis had set in by the time the stager who intended to redress her in the barbie-gown?

We can assume she was killed shortly after consuming the pineapple, and since her pijamas were still under her pillow, I'll assume she was still wearing her day-clothes when killed?

At some point her hair was restyled as she lay on a bed, table, or floor, this is why the ponytails are asymmetric, then her clothing beneath her waist was removed and she was redressed in the size-12's by the same person who did her hair?

Whomever redressed her in those longjohns possibly wiped her down?

I think the initial staging was intended to reflect some other scenario, possibly the abduction or some accident?

Then it was revised, but not completed, and we are left trying to make sense of it?

.

 

[BBB167893]

"no swelling of her brain which also inicates to me that the blow came after the strangulation. The brain's size frequently increases after a severe head injury. This is called brain swelling and occurs when there is an increase in the amount of blood to the brain."

In the autopsy report, the coroner lists significant brain swelling, so much so that the gray matter was actually pressed flat against the skull.

"Suppose the head bash immediately sent JonBenet into a deep coma where she was nearing death, with almost no pulse anymore - couldn't this have been the reason for only 7 to 8 ccs of blood being found under her scalp?"

Possible. A person in shock has a weak pulse and shallow breathing. How easy would it be for a person in a panic to mis them?

"And who knows if a part of Patsy didn't in fact blame JonBenet for having 'ruined' her life, having acted in a way which drove Patsy to kill her."

Rashomon, if history teaches us anything, it's that anyone can justify anything.

 

[Britt]

imo her hair was restyled postmortem, but I cannot think what the motive was

Perhaps because it was easier to tie on the cord and create the phony terrorist garrote without all that hair in the way ?...

And/or so the garrote would be more visible for staging purposes, to divert attention from that which the perp didn't want noticed -- a head injury and vaginal abuse. (Remember, this was staged as a terrorist type kidnapping, not a sex predator attack -- the sex predator materialized later when the vaginal injury was discovered.)

is it possible that she was left wearing the white gap top because rigor-mortis had set in by the time the stager who intended to redress her in the barbie-gown?

That's what I've always thought.

We can assume she was killed shortly after consuming the pineapple, and since her pijamas were still under her pillow, I'll assume she was still wearing her day-clothes when killed?

I agree. We know she wore that white Gap shirt to the Whites that evening (Thomas said this in an interview, and I think in his book too), so it looks like she never had a chance to change out of the shirt.

 

[rashomon]

Apparently LHP has contradicted herself on the existance of knowing about the little room dubbed the "wine celler"...
First she says she and Merv brought up the x-mas decorations that were kept down there, then she says she didn't even know it existed?
Puleaze!
I have often wondered if LHP has a drinking problem....one that makes her forget crucial details she's already stated.

Maybe by "down there" LHP meant other basement rooms than the wine cellar?

 

[rashomon]

Head wounds are notorious for bleeding profusely, plus there was no swelling of her brain which also inicates to me that the blow came after the strangulation. The brain's size frequently increases after a severe head injury. This is called brain swelling and occurs when there is an increase in the amount of blood to the brain.

There obviously was swelling of her brain:

[SuperDave]In the autopsy report, the coroner lists significant brain swelling, so much so that the gray matter was actually pressed flat against the skull.

 

[rashomon]

Quote:
Originally Posted by UKGuy
imo her hair was restyled postmortem, but I cannot think what the motive was

[Britt]Perhaps because it was easier to tie on the cord and create the phony terrorist garrote without all that hair in the way ?...
And/or so the garrote would be more visible for staging purposes, to divert attention from that which the perp didn't want noticed -- a head injury and vaginal abuse.

I think this could indeed be the reason.
I don't think Patsy would ever have done JB's hair like that for a Christmas party. But putting up her hair like that to make tying the ligature easier, the garrote more visible and also to hide the head injury - this would make perfect sense, and is also a strong argument for the head bash having occurred first.

[UkGuy]
is it possible that she was left wearing the white gap top because rigor-mortis had set in by the time the stager who intended to redress her in the barbie-gown?

Britt]That's what I've always thought.

Very convincing thoughts UkGuy and Britt. This would explain the Barbie gown in the wine cellar. The stager wanted to put it on but saw that it was not possible anymore. Do you think the stager then left the Barbie gown behind accidentally or on purpose?

[UkGuy]
We can assume she was killed shortly after consuming the pineapple, and since her pijamas were still under her pillow, I'll assume she was still wearing her day-clothes when killed?

[Britt]I agree. We know she wore that white Gap shirt to the Whites that evening (Thomas said this in an interview, and I think in his book too), so it looks like she never had a chance to change out of the shirt.

Jmo too. I don't think JonBenet ever went to bed that night.

 

[Seeker]

"no swelling of her brain which also inicates to me that the blow came after the strangulation. The brain's size frequently increases after a severe head injury. This is called brain swelling and occurs when there is an increase in the amount of blood to the brain."

In the autopsy report, the coroner lists significant brain swelling, so much so that the gray matter was actually pressed flat against the skull.

It doesn't say that. Read it again. http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/jonbenet7.html

It says, "The 1450 gm brain has a normal overall architecture. Mild narrowing of the sucli and flattening of the gyri are seen. No inflamation is identified."

Then read the next 2 pages as well.
Better yet, if you have no medical backround have someone that does translate it for you because you apparenlty missed the vital information that shows there was no swelling or displacement of the brain.

 

[Seeker]

Maybe by "down there" LHP meant other basement rooms than the wine cellar?

No, she meant the wine cellar. I'm sure one of the members at FFJ has that info at their fingertips that they could bring up to share for us.
Unfortunately I don't have it here.

 

[BBB167893]

"But putting up her hair like that to make tying the ligature easier, the garrote more visible and also to hide the head injury - this would make perfect sense, and is also a strong argument for the head bash having occurred first."

Not just that, rashomon. Some people think she didn't have the physical power to inflict it. That's garbage. A blow like that has a lot to do with leverage. Allow me to explain:

I'm about six-feet-tall, 230 lbs. Let's say I come up behind someone of equal height and hit them in the head with a baseball bat. Now, being right-handed, I would wind up with the bat behind my right shoulder and swing to the left. I would put all my weight on my back foot in the wind up, and swing, dropping to my front foot, possibly affecting my balance. Secondly, my arms would not put up equal power.

BUT:

Let's say I hit said person in the knees and they dropped to their knees. Now, the person is a good deal shorter than I am. I raise the bat over my head like an axe. My leverage is now much better. I'm swinging on a central line straight down. Nothing's there to get in my way, I have no need to switch balance. I have a wide standing base, and both arms are putting maximum power to the blow. Using my hips and putting my back into it, this blow would be more damaging.

Now, you have an adult and a tiny child. The height advantage is apparent. See what I'm getting at?

"Better yet, if you have no medical backround have someone that does translate it for you because you apparenlty missed the vital information that shows there was no swelling or displacement of the brain."

I did. Narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri is just what I said it was: brain swelling. Not only that, a forensic pathologist, Dr. Werner Spitz, said that there was no question in his mind the head blow came first.

 

[UKGuy]

"But putting up her hair like that to make tying the ligature easier, the garrote more visible and also to hide the head injury - this would make perfect sense, and is also a strong argument for the head bash having occurred first."

SuperDave,

This is possible but the head injury was not visible, even Dr John Meyer was not aware of it or its extent until he did the internal post-mortem.

Sectioning her hair to make the garrote more prominent is an option, but like her sexual assault it would have been discovered eventually. Also her hair was embedded into the knotting surrounding the garrote. Implying haste on the stagers behalf, and less attention to detail.

I am inclined to think a lot of JonBenet's disposition in the wine-cellar is not so much a staging to deflect attention onto an intruder, but more to cover up prior aspects of her homicide.

Take the sexual assault, now assuming it is part of the staging, why is there the need to conceal it? Firstly by wiping her down and changing her underwear, and possibly those longjohns?

What percentage is there in this, if the intention is to stage a homicide by a sexual predator, why cleanup her genital area? How many sociopaths do you know who have a penchant for wiping their victims down?

Similarly with her hair, it appears as an exercise in frivolity in the midst of horrific violence? Two ponytails which are asymmetric, and have different colored ties, a hairstyle I am certain fashion aware JonBenet would not want to be seen in.

So there are aspects to the staging that appear almost incidental, even redundant, unless they are meant to mask something else.

Its as if JonBenet had already been dressed and her hair styled with the intention of dumping her outdoors?

Another aspect to the hair styling is: when was it undertaken?

certainly not before she went to bed since the R's stated she went straight to bed, and no sexual predator is going to take time out to section her hair, so like the pineapple her sectioned hair is another potential marker in JonBenet's virtual timeline on that fateful night.


So SuperDave if you consider the head bash ocurred first, then why did someone go and search out some cord, wrap it around JonBenet's neck and asphyxiate her?
.

 

[rashomon]

Some people think she didn't have the physical power to inflict it. That's garbage. A blow like that has a lot to do with leverage. Allow me to explain:

I'm about six-feet-tall, 230 lbs. Let's say I come up behind someone of equal height and hit them in the head with a baseball bat. Now, being right-handed, I would wind up with the bat behind my right shoulder and swing to the left. I would put all my weight on my back foot in the wind up, and swing, dropping to my front foot, possibly affecting my balance. Secondly, my arms would not put up equal power.

BUT:

Let's say I hit said person in the knees and they dropped to their knees. Now, the person is a good deal shorter than I am. I raise the bat over my head like an axe. My leverage is now much better. I'm swinging on a central line straight down. Nothing's there to get in my way, I have no need to switch balance. I have a wide standing base, and both arms are putting maximum power to the blow. Using my hips and putting my back into it, this blow would be more damaging.

Now, you have an adult and a tiny child. The height advantage is apparent. See what I'm getting at?

SuperDave - yes, I can see yoir point: that it is all a question of leverage. There is also this picture somewhere on the internet with Dr. Spitz demonstrating how the blow to JB's head could have been delivered. And according to Spitz this blow did indeed come down like an axe on JB's head, with the perp standing above her.

Do you think it possible that this type of skull fracture could also have been caused suppose Patsy grabbed JonBenet in anger and yanked her against a hard object?

[Seeker]Better yet, if you have no medical backround have someone that does translate it for you because you apparenlty missed the vital information that shows there was no swelling or displacement of the brain.

[SuperDave]I did. Narrowing of the sulci and flattening of the gyri is just what I said it was: brain swelling. Not only that, a forensic pathologist, Dr. Werner Spitz, said that there was no question in his mind the head blow came first.

And Seeker: in addition to the 7-8 cc of subdural hemorrhage there was also a film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. That's what Cyril Wecht obviously left out when claiming there was so little blood in JB's brain. And that's what Steve Thomas meant when he wrote that JB's brain had extensively hemorrhaged, the blood having spread over the whole right half of her brain.
There also was an extensive linear area of purple contusion underlying the linear skull fracture from the front to the back of the head.

So there was bleeding, swelling and contusion of the brain, and forensic pathologist Dr. Spitz saying there was no question that the head blow came first.

 

[Holdontoyourhat]

Perhaps because it was easier to tie on the cord and create the phony terrorist garrote without all that hair in the way ?...

And/or so the garrote would be more visible for staging purposes, to divert attention from that which the perp didn't want noticed -- a head injury and vaginal abuse. (Remember, this was staged as a terrorist type kidnapping, not a sex predator attack -- the sex predator materialized later when the vaginal injury was discovered.)


That's what I've always thought.


I agree. We know she wore that white Gap shirt to the Whites that evening (Thomas said this in an interview, and I think in his book too), so it looks like she never had a chance to change out of the shirt.

FYI, there's no such thing as a 'terrorist's garrote.' A garrote is a garrote. THere's photographic and forensic evidence that pretty much concludes the garrote was used to strangle JBR, and the perp just left it there because he didn't want to have it with him.

All the discussion on what came first, the strangulation or the headbash, seems to disregard several precedents. The murder of actor Bob Crane is an example of strangulation followed by headbash. Its a MO that killers use to prevent their victims from being revived. Since a strangulation being used to 'cover up' a head bash would be unprecented, its far more likely the same MO of strangulation and headbash was used to murder JBR.

 

[BBB167893]

"Do you think it possible that this type of skull fracture could also have been caused suppose Patsy grabbed JonBenet in anger and yanked her against a hard object?"

Yes, rashomon. If the surface was curved, like the lip of a tub, then the impact would concentrate on a small enough area.

"in addition to the 7-8 cc of subdural hemorrhage there was also a film of subarachnoid hemorrhage overlying the entire right cerebral hemisphere. That's what Cyril Wecht obviously left out when claiming there was so little blood in JB's brain. And that's what Steve Thomas meant when he wrote that JB's brain had extensively hemorrhaged, the blood having spread over the whole right half of her brain.There also was an extensive linear area of purple contusion underlying the linear skull fracture from the front to the back of the head. So there was bleeding, swelling and contusion of the brain, and forensic pathologist Dr. Spitz saying there was no question that the head blow came first."

Exactly! And no one ever says exactly how much blood was in those areas you mention!