LIBYA - "I WILL DIE A MARTYR" Gadaffi Clinging On To Power Refuses To Go

  • #41
First step IMO should have been to find out exactly who the rebels are.
What is their agenda? So far, nobody seems to know.....even the higher ups.....
Act now and ask questions later seems to be the current theme.

IMO
 
  • #42
If this thread is going to become an Obama-bashing thread, perhaps it should be moved to the Political Pavilion?

And to those attempting to convince yourselves that what happens in the Middle East has nothing to do with what's going on here at home, make note of the gas prices where you live and how they are affecting everything else you do on a day-to-day basis.
 
  • #43
  • #44
If this thread is going to become an Obama-bashing thread, perhaps it should be moved to the Political Pavilion?

And to those attempting to convince yourselves that what happens in the Middle East has nothing to do with what's going on here at home, make note of the gas prices where you live and how they are affecting everything else you do on a day-to-day basis.

Thank you! No matter who is in office the U.S. will not and cannot escape the tangled mess in the middle east. Even if Palin was in office we would STILL be over there helping the UN and bombing Libya.

The Middle East does matter to us here. Like someone said the gas prices and the economy reflect that. As long as we are slaves to oil the Middle East will continue to be a priority. We cannot escape it. If you look at history the last 6 or 7 presidents have had to deal with some sort of issue in the middle east. That will not stop. Terrorisim is still a threat too. Regime change IMO is the only way to curb the tide. The moderate peoples of that region need to stand up.

Gadaffi is not just a dictor like Saddam he is worse. He is a mass murder. Saddam Hussein did alot of terrible things, but he killed his enemies and rivals; those armed against him or groups trying to overthrow him. Gadaffi has killed not only political opponents but also people of religious, ethnic and tribes that didnt fit into his ideal mold of the correct type of libyian. He needs to go.
 
  • #45
Welcome to our THIRD war!

Why do you think this is going to become another WAR for us? We are not sending in any ground troops. We have simply sent planes to take out Gadaffi's anti-aircraft positions, ground his Air Force and take out military installations. All of this is to give the people of Libya a fighting chance to overthrow the brutal and repressive regime of Gadaffi. We just kind of leveled the field for the rebels.
 
  • #46
First step IMO should have been to find out exactly who the rebels are.
What is their agenda? So far, nobody seems to know.....even the higher ups.....
Act now and ask questions later seems to be the current theme.

IMO

The rebels are Libyan citizens that want freedom and to get out from under the brutal and repressive reign of Gadaffi. What is so hard to understand about that?
 
  • #47
Thank you! No matter who is in office the U.S. will not and cannot escape the tangled mess in the middle east. Even if Palin was in office we would STILL be over there helping the UN and bombing Libya.

The Middle East does matter to us here. Like someone said the gas prices and the economy reflect that. As long as we are slaves to oil the Middle East will continue to be a priority. We cannot escape it. If you look at history the last 6 or 7 presidents have had to deal with some sort of issue in the middle east. That will not stop. Terrorisim is still a threat too. Regime change IMO is the only way to curb the tide. The moderate peoples of that region need to stand up.

Gadaffi is not just a dictor like Saddam he is worse. He is a mass murder. Saddam Hussein did alot of terrible things, but he killed his enemies and rivals; those armed against him or groups trying to overthrow him. Gadaffi has killed not only political opponents but also people of religious, ethnic and tribes that didnt fit into his ideal mold of the correct type of libyian. He needs to go.

Not just those. He also commited genocide on populations within his country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign

(a lot of kurds but there were others). He ordered the slaughter of innocent children as well. Just adding to your comment. IMHO Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi are of the same ilk.


(My post not directed at Burbqueen)While I disagree with what has been said about our CinC here on this thread I don't think he can be excluded from the discussion.When I read a post that I disagree with I either respond and debate the post or I read past it without comment.

He identified himself as the "CinC" when he announced the decision for the USA to join in on the air campaign to enforce the no fly zone. I can go look up that video if it is needed to support that statement. No prob just let me know :)

His administration made this choice. I, personally, am not agreeing with it or disagreeing because nothing is ever as simple as "we are going to save the people" but conversely nothing ever as convoluted and jaded as "we only went into the middle east to save our access to oil".

IMHO both statements are over simplistic and to be frank appear to be ill informed or well thought through statements. JMHO.

But my opinion is that when our Govn becomes involved in what is now a group effort and/or military movement than we should be able to discuss the individuals that we elected to office and how, what, when and where they came to the conclusion to bring us the American people into this situation. That would include ---among others----the president of the USA.

I am particularily interested in Hilary Clinton's role in this decision and what's her background with Libya. I haven't taken the time to dig and try to figure out what's what though. JMHO.
 
  • #48
The rebels are Libyan citizens that want freedom and to get out from under the brutal and repressive reign of Gadaffi. What is so hard to understand about that?

In the 41 years that Gadaffi's regime has held power in Libya this is the first and only time that the citizens have wanted to get out from under his brutality and repressive reign?

This is the first uprising? Or is this the first uprising that the USA has been invovled in helping determine the outcome?

Did the USA help the citizens of Egypt to overthrow their president? Did we or any other country bomb targets within Egypt to help level the playing field?

If so, I missed it.

What is so hard for me to understand is this: Why now? Why these rebels? Who made this choice within out Govn? Who made the justification for the money we spent (we are broke remember?) firing onto this country (and we just lost a fighter jet too) when we have sent a pittance to our Ally Japan in the help of the recovery. (earlier this week we had sent approx 64 million in aid, those tomahawks cost about half a million a pop and we shot off well over 100 last week).

This is a complex issue and I don't think it can be distilled into a simple statement. I really don't. JMHO.
 
  • #49
Not just those. He also commited genocide on populations within his country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Anfal_Campaign

(a lot of kurds but there were others). He ordered the slaughter of innocent children as well. Just adding to your comment. IMHO Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gaddafi are of the same ilk.


(My post not directed at Burbqueen)While I disagree with what has been said about our CinC here on this thread I don't think he can be excluded from the discussion.When I read a post that I disagree with I either respond and debate the post or I read past it without comment.

He identified himself as the "CinC" when he announced the decision for the USA to join in on the air campaign to enforce the no fly zone. I can go look up that video if it is needed to support that statement. No prob just let me know :)

His administration made this choice. I, personally, am not agreeing with it or disagreeing because nothing is ever as simple as "we are going to save the people" but conversely nothing ever as convoluted and jaded as "we only went into the middle east to save our access to oil".

IMHO both statements are over simplistic and to be frank appear to be ill informed or well thought through statements. JMHO.

But my opinion is that when our Govn becomes involved in what is now a group effort and/or military movement than we should be able to discuss the individuals that we elected to office and how, what, when and where they came to the conclusion to bring us the American people into this situation. That would include ---among others----the president of the USA.

I am particularily interested in Hilary Clinton's role in this decision and what's her background with Libya. I haven't taken the time to dig and try to figure out what's what though. JMHO.

I understand your point, Kat. But I do believe the unrest in the Middle East would (and has many times in the past!) warranted various levels of action on the part of the USA - regardless of the political party of the sitting administration.

We are all still one world and what happens there does impact us here - sometimes more than others. To turn a blind eye to such a blatant example of tyranny would be unforgivable, IMO. And that kind of apathy, particularly from a "world superpower" could easily have dire consequences for us down the road.

I'm not always supportive of the US policing the world and butting into the internal affairs of other nations, but sometimes it cannot be helped and we are not alone in this. When someone has the power to change or stop the slaughter of people who just want a better life just stand on the sidelines and say "it's not our business," we all lose.

JMHO
 
  • #50
Nevermind. :)
 
  • #51
In the 41 years that Gadaffi's regime has held power in Libya this is the first and only time that the citizens have wanted to get out from under his brutality and repressive reign?

This fact alone should tell you the answer! In what world should ONE "regime" be in power for 41 years???

This is the first uprising? Or is this the first uprising that the USA has been invovled in helping determine the outcome?

Did the USA help the citizens of Egypt to overthrow their president? Did we or any other country bomb targets within Egypt to help level the playing field?

If so, I missed it.

The Egyptian people didn't seem to need help and their struggle was broadcasted around the world! Their ruling "regime" couldn't hide the horrors!

What is so hard for me to understand is this: Why now? Why these rebels? Who made this choice within out Govn? Who made the justification for the money we spent (we are broke remember?) firing onto this country (and we just lost a fighter jet too) when we have sent a pittance to our Ally Japan in the help of the recovery. (earlier this week we had sent approx 64 million in aid, those tomahawks cost about half a million a pop and we shot off well over 100 last week).

I'm sure there are reasons about which we have no clue. And I don't believe these decisions are made by one person. From a financial standpoint, I'm pretty sure Japan is currently waaaaaaaay better off than we are. That being said, I've no doubt we will help them if they need it. Difference being, they have been harmed by Mother Nature, not a ruthless dictator.

This is a complex issue and I don't think it can be distilled into a simple statement. I really don't. JMHO.

Yes Ma'am! And I agree.
 
  • #52
While I know I am far too uneducated in politics, and war issues to really comment on this......

My only statement would be, we welcomed home over 1,400 troops in the last 14 days, and the happiness of the children and spouses of these Heroes brought tears to my eyes. I am simply sad that their happiness may be short lived. :twocents:
 
  • #53
In the 41 years that Gadaffi's regime has held power in Libya this is the first and only time that the citizens have wanted to get out from under his brutality and repressive reign?

This is the first uprising? Or is this the first uprising that the USA has been invovled in helping determine the outcome?

Did the USA help the citizens of Egypt to overthrow their president? Did we or any other country bomb targets within Egypt to help level the playing field?

If so, I missed it.

What is so hard for me to understand is this: Why now? Why these rebels? Who made this choice within out Govn? Who made the justification for the money we spent (we are broke remember?) firing onto this country (and we just lost a fighter jet too) when we have sent a pittance to our Ally Japan in the help of the recovery. (earlier this week we had sent approx 64 million in aid, those tomahawks cost about half a million a pop and we shot off well over 100 last week).

This is a complex issue and I don't think it can be distilled into a simple statement. I really don't. JMHO.

I think the people of Libya have wanted a regime change for decades. The big difference for all of the people living under repressive regimes in the middle east was the success of the uprising in Tunisia. The demographic is similar to many of the countries now following their example, as is the repressiveness of their dictators and the length of those dictator's reign.
So, people in middle eastern countries watching Tunisia and what happened there, felt heartened, encouraged and emboldened and they acted as a result. They felt that they may have a chance.

So, why didn't we give any kind of military aid to Egypt or Tunisia? Why just Libya? That's easy: Because their governments were not slaughtering their protesters to the extent that Kaddafi has been. Also, Egypt has been our ally. Libya has not been and instead has been a known supporter of terrorism.

And why haven't we stepped in militarily to oust Kaddafi before this? Well, we did, under President Reagan, when we bombed several of Kaddafi's residences and other sites in a massive air strike. But, that's not what we are doing now. We are joining forces to make it harder for Kaddafi to slaughter his own people. We are not trying to get him out on our own or are trying to kill him - that would be very costly and is not what the world feels is the best step at present, I think. Instead, it seems that most nations feel the people rebelling should be protected somewhat from wholesale slaughter and to enable them to survive so that they can make their own decisions regarding what happens to Kaddafi and where their country goes next.

What about the cost? It's hard for me to put a price on human life. These are people who are being massacred by a force much greater than their own, because they want their oppressor, a terrorist named Kaddafi, out. And this is one way to give them assistance without engaging in an all out war. Instead, we are part of a team of nations who together agreed on a campaign based on numerous factors.

And what about the specific cost for the U.S.? Well, the U.S. military states the cost of each Tomahawk missile is around $500,000.00. http://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=2200&tid=1300&ct=2 I'm not sure where the stat that we've shot 100 of those puppies so far came from (some online sources seem to inflate stats for the purpose of agitating) bu Reuters reports that while the total cost of the operation to all the nations involved could be close to one billion, the cost to the U.S. AND Britain, together has been about 200 million thus far. http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/23/libya-usa-costs-idUSN2220961820110323
When you consider that we spend 9 billion per month in Afghanistan, I'm not sure it's money to poorly spent.

But what of your point that we gave Japan only $64 million in comparison with what we have spent on Libya? I think that's a fair point and a good question. On the one hand, you have innocent people who have been devastated by natural disaster and need assistance and on the other hand you have innocent people who could very well die as a direct result of our intervention in Libya, as casualties. So, what's the better place to spend our money? Is there a better way to help the people of Libya without engaging in military action? Good questions and I agree that we should be able to question what our government does in our name, at any time, regardless of who is in office.

ETA: I do not believe that the money we gave thus far to Japan, however, is the last of what we will be giving them.
 
  • #54
Thank you fairy and gitana for your insightful and well thought out posts :)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ca...qM5gHuo7ObFbskjoJnTfo8tdd3nbiBQ?docId=6370030

Wasn't sure if I should just post this here or start a new thread so I broght it here.

Headline and byline for above link:
Troops fire on protests as Mideast's upheaval reaches Syria, spreading across its cities
By Bassem Mroue,Zeina Karam, The Associated Press – 16 minutes ago
 
  • #55
[video=youtube;gZLkVy5MWIQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZLkVy5MWIQ[/video]
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
116
Guests online
2,131
Total visitors
2,247

Forum statistics

Threads
632,769
Messages
18,631,581
Members
243,291
Latest member
CrimeJukie_fan1
Back
Top