Long Easter Weekend Thread (Apr. 5, 6, 7, 8, & 9, 2012)

[Kamille]

TLM lies, tells the truth, lies more, tells more truth, lies more... etc.
Where do her lies end, and where does the truth begin? And where does that truth end, and her other lies begin? Ad nauseum. :banghead:

That is why we have to pay very, very close attention to ALL the evidence presented in this case. Not just assume there is no evidence against the accused (the trial isn't over yet, all the evidence isn't presented yet), or just assume that he is absolutely, without a doubt, guilty. It is fine to have opinions, I am not saying we shouldn't think that he is *probably* guilty/not guilty, but to make a definite decision, ALL the evidence needs to be presented. We can not rely on her word only, just because she sometimes tells the truth. Her word is only there, as far as I am concerned, to 'back up' the evidence. Unless evidence is presented that matches her statements perfectly, then it is probably fairly safe to disregard anything else she says. Or is it?

I just hope, at the end of it all, that the right decision and the right people are locked up. For life. This is about Tori, a little girl whose life was taken away from her before she even had the chance to live it. She didn't die of natural causes. She died because some person(s) took it from her. This has to be done right.

:moo: :moo: :moo:

I am paying very close attention to the evidence in this case. And nothing Derstine has suggested is evidence. Nothing. The evidence so far is showing that TLM's account of events which is direct evidence, is being backed up with circumstantial evidence collected.

I'm also having a hard time figuring out why a guy who had a pre-arranged appointment to pick up a large quantity of drugs from his supplier, thought it would be a good idea to take along a girl that he indicated was just a casual acquaintance and the child that she had just lured from a school.

And there is no way anyone can convince me that Victoria just got into that car with two complete strangers and went happily along with them on this adventure. How convenient for the defendent that she's not here to tell her version of the story. The truth.

But hopefully her battered little half naked body buried in a rock pile 140km away from home tells the story for her.

MOO

 

[Salem]

The question of the drug debt was left IMO wide open - TM never said (nor was she asked) who JG ripped off.

TLM said that neither TM or JG owed her any money - but that they may have owed others (Carol?)

So IMO the question of the drug debt is not dead in the water ... I fully expect that we will hear more about it from the defence as the trial progresses.

@AdrianMorrow
Tara McDonald says James Goris did have a drug debt: he ripped someone off for 20 or 30 pills worth $400. She had no debts.
__________________
The jury is returning. Ready to resume.

Derstine asks McClintic about providing theories of the crime. McClintic tells Det. Smyth, "James or Tara, I only met Tara like twice


RaffertyLFP: McClintic said she heard rumors about Stafford and McDonald. She said they did not owe her any drug money but they may owe money to others

Derstine asks McClintic about statements she made in video about Tara McDonald and Rodney Stafford

Do you think it was MR that JG ripped off, then? Maybe they met in that bar? What did MR call it? Good Time Charlies?

Salem

 

[swedie]

And none of them have been harmed or even threatened in person by TLM. With the exception of the fight with her mother. In which she retaliated for being burned by a cigarette. So why did she choose Victoria for her first murder? :waitasec:

MOO

IMO, because she felt loved by MR. A love she never felt before from anyone and she was going to do anything for a little bit of love. MR wanted Tori to rape and TLM was the weak minded individual without morals and a value system and MR knew that. He had spent four or five months with her and found out what made her tick. He knew he had found Miss Right to help him fulfill his sick fantasies. :moo:

 

[~n/t~]

People involved in the local drug trade.

People who don't want it known they sell drugs on behalf of others....because such knowledge can be bad for their health.

People who may know something but don't want their name dragged through the mud.......such as happened to BA.

It would be interesting to have all the phone records of everyone involved to compare them and see who was calling who..........when and at what time.

I would assume both the Crown and defense would have that information.

We may hear more about that in the future............JMO

I keep seeing inference to "people" "everyone involved". As far as I know, only 2 people are involved.

Terri Lynn McClintic - self confessed murderer
Michael (Mychol) Thomas Rafferty - Accused kidapper, rapist, murderer.

There has been no evidence anybody else was involved or directly connected to this crime.

 

[Salem]

A better word could have been chosen on my part, as my statement may infer that TLM "kept something" in a physical fashion.

This is not what I meant to say. In her letters, it was revealed that she obtained information on a witness against her on another assault/stabbing case......through court documents.

Although I intended TLM "kept" the information in her head.........I wasn't clear enough.

I will have to post this and then copy/paste link for the other question.

This is fine for me... I remember that TLM said the info came from court documents - the confusion for me was in the discussion of the discovery docs and keeping them.

Thanks,

Salem

 

[swedie]

The Crown has been presenting evidence to back up TLM's testimony. So far, they have backed up her testimony with proof to show she does have credibility in a lot of what she testified to.

Again, I don't see the relevance of continuing to bring up drug debts and gangs and now TLM's assault in jail when they have nothing to do with this trial.

TLM is not the one on trial. TLM confessed and she's now a convicted murderer. MR wanted his day in court and he's getting it. MR will get his chance with aid from counsel as to what his side of the story is but until then, why do some continue to provide theories that haven't even been presented by the defence yet? One example was the alleged drug debt when we know and it was proven and testified to that this had nothing to do with a drug debt but yet, it keeps coming up over and over again. And even if it did, it doesn't explain away MR's involvement with Tori's murder. He claims he didn't know Tori nor Rodney nor JG and he hardly knew the confessed murderer.

I read the last few posts and wondered if I had stumbled upon a different case. Why are we discussing TLM's assault charges? Maybe a separate thread should be started or move the conversation over to Crimes in the News forum. I honestly don't see the relevance to this case whatsoever. If it's brought up by the defence, perhaps we can discuss it then but to continue to derail this forum with TLM's crimes past and present is totally off topic. I don't care who she assaults in jail and why. All I care about is getting justice for Victoria.

IMO

Did I write that?! Ooops sounds like something I would have posted. AGREED 100% :goodpost::tyou:

 

[Ardy]

IMO LE must have something such as evidence and testimony (TLM's testimony is considered evidence) to back up their allegations.

That's a good quote Ardy, I've never heard it before; but it's good.:woohoo: I've heard one's like "don't judge a book by its cover", "only believe half of what you see and none of what you hear", and another practical one is "you learn something new every day". :moo:

Or........."actions speak louder than words"

I think they are all variations of the same quote..........but there is a lot of wisdom contained in all the old axioms.

I think the phone records of everyone within the realm of the LE investigation would be worth the time to obtain and cross reference.

Despite peril to themselves, it seems a human trait that many people can't restrain themselves from talking about what they did.

Dates, times, before, during, and after the day of the crime might reveal something by who was talking to whom. It might also reveal if witnesses, such as TLM or BA, are being honest when testifying to the amount of "contact" they had with others.

I believe LE already did this.........and everything relevant will be revealed by the scrutiny of either the Crown or defense.

We just have to wait for it............JMO

 

[Alethea Dice]

Well maybe she wasn't lying. Maybe her second version of what happened is the lie. JMO

My post was about her passing the lie detector test even though she was lying, not about which version of the murder was a lie.

The lies she stated during the polygraph test (from my previous post):

She denied involvement in Tori's disappearance.

AM980.ca@AM980_Court
McClintic, again, denies involvement in Tori's disappearance.

She says she saw a woman walking with Tori.

Gerry Dewan @GerryDewanCTV
During the interview, is sketching on a pad the area her location near the school saying she saw a woman walking with Tori

She lied about the clothes she was wearing.

Adrian Morrow@AdrianMorrow
McClintic also says in polygraph she was wearing clothes different than the woman in the white puffy coat, including a dressy coat

She lied about not feeling relaxed.

RaffertyLFP: In the video she tells police about the pink jacket she was wearing, She is laughing and relaxed

AM980.ca@AM980_Court
Video is now over. Derstine asks if McClintic seems relaxed and confidant in the video. She says she's not.

She even admitted she lied easily in the video.

RaffertyLFP: McClintic admits she lied easily in the video about going home that day and doing drugs with her mother

 

[~n/t~]

Do you think it was MR that JG ripped off, then? Maybe they met in that bar? What did MR call it? Good Time Charlies?

Salem

Well that would totally blow their possible defence strategy out of the water wouldn't it? He claimed not to have known Tori's family (including JG). He mentioned the rumours about them but didn't know them. He only knew of Tori from a friend.

If he knew Tori then we have motive right there and I seriously doubt the defence would even go there, IMO.

 

[BorgQueen]

IMO, because she felt loved by MR. A love she never felt before from anyone and she was going to do anything for a little bit of love. MR wanted Tori to rape and TLM was the weak minded individual without morals and a value system and MR knew that. He had spent four or five months with her and found out what made her tick. He knew he had found Miss Right to help him fulfill his sick fantasies. :moo:

MR didn't want Tori, if we are to believe TLM's testimony. According to her, he wanted a younger girl, which is usually the case for pedophiles. Something that TLM would know very well from personal experience, IMO.
If it is true that he wanted a child for his own sick fantasies, then yes, it is likely that TLM provided a child to make her sicko boyfriend happy (whether he asked or not). It is likely that she believes all men are "diddlers", based on her personal experience (seems like she was molested multiple times as a child, by men who weaselled their way into her mother's life so they can get their hands on her little girl, which is also common for this type of man).
TLM could be telling the truth, it is highly possible. But it is just as possible that she is lying. 50/50. :moo:

 

[Salem]

My post was about her passing the lie detector test even though she was lying, not about which version of the murder was a lie.

The lies she stated during the polygraph test (from my previous post):

She denied involvement in Tori's disappearance.


She says she saw a woman walking with Tori.


She lied about the clothes she was wearing.


She lied about not feeling relaxed.


She even admitted she lied easily in the video.

I see what you are saying here, but we don't know if the investigator doing the poly was aware that she was lying when answering these specific questions.

For example - she lied when she said she saw a woman walking with Tori. In my mind, the investigator administering the poly knew she was lying, because they continued to ask her questions until she told the truth and told them that it was her.

So these examples don't really say much, to me. She may have been relaxed while she was lying and not so much when she began to tell the truth. This will not be clarified for us because the poly is not evidence, unless the Crown finds a way to explain to the jury that they knew when she was lying and when she was not - if that makes sense......

Salem

 

[ChaChaCha]

Do you think it was MR that JG ripped off, then? Maybe they met in that bar? What did MR call it? Good Time Charlies?

Salem

Hmmm, no ... I think the defense will say that JG owed Carol ... if they can substantiate it that is ...

I believe that TM testified that she (at least) didn't know MR and that she had no drug debts (at that time - the question was asked and answered by her in the present tense while I got the impression that the $400 owed by JG was at the time of the abduction.)

JMO

 

[swedie]

I am paying very close attention to the evidence in this case. And nothing Derstine has suggested is evidence. Nothing. The evidence so far is showing that TLM's account of events which is direct evidence, is being backed up with circumstantial evidence collected.

I'm also having a hard time figuring out why a guy who had a pre-arranged appointment to pick up a large quantity of drugs from his supplier, thought it would be a good idea to take along a girl that he indicated was just a casual acquaintance and the child that she had just lured from a school.

And there is no way anyone can convince me that Victoria just got into that car with two complete strangers and went happily along with them on this adventure. How convenient for the defendent that she's not here to tell her version of the story. The truth.

But hopefully her battered little half naked body buried in a rock pile 140km away from home tells the story for her.

MOO

Very strong point I bolded of yours Kamille. I hope the Crown drives this home. MR claimed in his interview with LE on May 15/09, he did not know TM, (only heard rumours about her and drugs and that she hung out at GTC), he admitted to not knowing JG or Tori. TM said Tori had never met TLM or CM, she was never at their house and visa versa. TLM admitted Tori was a random child and MR got upset at TLM because Tori was too old.

EXACTLY!! Why would Tori get into a vehicle with two total strangers willingly? She wouldn't, bottom line. She was push into MR's car exactly as TLM said. TM said a couple of times during PC, Tori would be giving her abductors a hard time because she was a feisty little girl. The poor little naive child was lured with the promise to see a puppy. How sick.:moo:

 

[swedie]

Hmmm, no ... I think the defense will say that JG owed Carol ... if they can substantiate it that is ...

I believe that TM testified that she (at least) didn't know MR and that she had no drug debts (at that time - the question was asked and answered by her in the present tense while I got the impression that the $400 owed by JG was at the time of the abduction.)

JMO

Well as I stated before, let us hope the person who JG owed the drug debt to takes the stand. Better yet CM would be a great witness. :moo:

 

[swedie]

My post was about her passing the lie detector test even though she was lying, not about which version of the murder was a lie.

The lies she stated during the polygraph test (from my previous post):

She denied involvement in Tori's disappearance.


She says she saw a woman walking with Tori.


She lied about the clothes she was wearing.


She lied about not feeling relaxed.


She even admitted she lied easily in the video.

Maybe I missed it; is there a video or where can I find this information about the polygraph test please and TIA.

 

[Sillybilly]

The lies she stated during the polygraph test (from my previous post):

<rsbm>

Do we have a transcript of the poly somewhere or a link to it?

It is my understanding that she took the poly at the same time that she confessed in 2009, therefore i'm more inclined to believe her version given then as compared to what she's cooked up this year.

IIRC, TM vomited during testimony at her own trial. Other than MTR being seen rolling eyes, muttering, scowling ... whatever ... I sure don't see him tossing his cookies about anything that's being placed in front of him so far.

ETA: FWIW, the RCMP use polys as an investigative tool in their hiring process. Maybe we should revert to sodium pentothal

 

[Hello_Kitty]

Well, yes ... she has a proven history of plotting revenge. lRevenge should be her middle name.

One example:

In a number of letters, McClintic vows revenge against specific fellow inmates and detention centre staff.

McClintic’s letters make frequent references to a group known as the “Murderous B****es.”

One letter contains the names, addresses and phone numbers of witnesses who testified against her on robbery and assault charges.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ToriStafford/2012/03/21/pf-19530466.html

Among her planned targets was her own mother as well as innocent family members of people she believed had wronged her or her friends.

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/ToriStafford/2012/03/21/19533701.html?&pic=0

IMO she was full of pent up rage and spent most of her time planning her horrific revenges.

Another example:

Well plotting and doing is two very different things. In anger I can plot revenge on someone, but I certainly don't follow with through with it. It helps me to release pent up anger. I wrote alot as well when I was younger and alot of my writings had alot of anger in them, but that's all it was, writing. I don't really take TLM's writing much into account, I think it's more of a way for her to get it all out of her head. I know it was for me.

I'm not giving her excuses, but I think that her writings and the songs she listens to are not an indication of what she's done or what she will do.

 

[Ardy]

I keep seeing inference to "people" "everyone involved". As far as I know, only 2 people are involved.

Terri Lynn McClintic - self confessed murderer
Michael (Mychol) Thomas Rafferty - Accused kidapper, rapist, murderer.

There has been no evidence anybody else was involved or directly connected to this crime.

TLM and MR are the only 2 people accused..........but I think quite a few people were "involved" in the overall LE investigation.

The list of initials is long and keeps growing............JMO

 

[swedie]

Or........."actions speak louder than words"

I think they are all variations of the same quote..........but there is a lot of wisdom contained in all the old axioms.

I think the phone records of everyone within the realm of the LE investigation would be worth the time to obtain and cross reference.

Despite peril to themselves, it seems a human trait that many people can't restrain themselves from talking about what they did.

Dates, times, before, during, and after the day of the crime might reveal something by who was talking to whom. It might also reveal if witnesses, such as TLM or BA, are being honest when testifying to the amount of "contact" they had with others.

I believe LE already did this.........and everything relevant will be revealed by the scrutiny of either the Crown or defense.

We just have to wait for it............JMO

Ouch phone records AND wiretaps. I bet LE got some good convos between MR and TLM at the old detention centre. Time will tell. :moo: I believe we are about half way through MR's trial now.

 

[Alethea Dice]

I see what you are saying here, but we don't know if the investigator doing the poly was aware that she was lying when answering these specific questions.

For example - she lied when she said she saw a woman walking with Tori. In my mind, the investigator administering the poly knew she was lying, because they continued to ask her questions until she told the truth and told them that it was her.

So these examples don't really say much, to me. She may have been relaxed while she was lying and not so much when she began to tell the truth. This will not be clarified for us because the poly is not evidence, unless the Crown finds a way to explain to the jury that they knew when she was lying and when she was not - if that makes sense......

Salem

I have no doubt that the investigator knew she was lying. There was some discussion about polygraph tests not being allowed as evidence because they're not reliable. Since TLM claims that she passed the test, this is actually a good example of that. My original post was in reply to maxfactor, who had commented that, what "niggles" at her about the change in TLM's story is the fact that she had passed the lie detector test when she told the first story - when she said that MR had committed the murder. I was trying to show that she had lied during the polygraph so that should not really be a factor in determining which story to believe.

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7767001&postcount=570"]http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7767001&postcount=570[/ame]

Hope this explains it better.