Low copy number (LCN) DNA = Ramsey's far from cleared

[JMO8778]

..that's just it.they don't want more testing,since they might find an actual match for the dna,and that person may have a rock-solid alibi..may not have even been anywhere near or around Boulder that night.and even if he was,if it was another art student or Patsy's instructor..or maybe it even traces back to the store or the factory where the brush was manufactured ..that would still not bode well for the IDI theory..they want no part of any plausible explanation.
Better to just let it sit as 'evidence',then they can claim anything they want.

 

[BBB167893]

This whole crime makes no sense at all. Why? That's because it is staged. And that's it in a nutshell.- DeeDee249

Ya. That's it in a nutshell.

I like it myself.

Basic .... scientific method? ..... dna present with the exclusion of what objects ..... the pattern of inclusion.

hmmm .... maybe ....not in the budget for a cold case?

(As Gary Coleman): Watchoo talkin' 'bout, Tadpole?

Who exactly initiated the re-testing (within the BPD)?

No one in the BPD was behind it, I'm fairly sure.

Wouldn't the more than one intruder (ie the Anarchist/socialists or inept kindnappers) scenarios warrant greater testing.

hmmm ...

That assumes of course that the DA wants to solve this case. I'm of the mind they don't.

 

[KoldKase]

Oh, some IDIs argue that we don't KNOW if Lacy had more evidence tested for the "touch" DNA.

Well, all we have to go on is HISTORY. HISTORICALLY, anything Lacy came upon that was POTENTIALLY exculpatory for the Ramseys, Lacy made sure it was ALL OVER THE NEWS. For god's sake, WHAT DA HAS EVER PUBLICLY "APOLOGIZED" to prime suspects in an unsolved murder? What DA has EVER tanked the case against the ONLY people EVER identified and remaining under the "umbrella of suspicion" in an unsolved murder to agree with a CIVIL OPINION offered by a judge WHO NEVER EVEN SAW THE ACTUAL CASE EVIDENCE PRESENTED AT SO MUCH AS A CIVIL TRIAL?

If Mary Lacy had found ANY DNA on the garrote or cords or duct tape or clothes that did NOT belong to the Ramseys, we'd have heard it SCREAMED from our TV ad nauseam--AGAIN.

If Mary Lacy found RAMSEY DNA ON THE CORDS, DUCT TAPE, OR GARROTE...no biggie, bury THAT fast!! It was the Ramsey house, after all.... HOW would their DNA get on the CORDS AND DUCT TAPE brought in by the intruder? OH, NOW it would be ALL ABOUT transference. Oops. So that would pretty much NEGATE the "exoneration" letter and "touch" DNA parade we had....

No, we will not hear about that, you can be sure.

 

[KoldKase]

That assumes of course that the DA wants to solve this case. I'm of the mind they don't.

No kidding. One MIGHT wonder why we haven't heard about the CRITICAL EVIDENCE the Ramseys WITHHELD FROM LE for five years, the alleged actual package of Bloomies out of which the size 12s found on JonBenet came. Gosh, didn't that even make it onto Lacy's or Smit's or Bennett's radar as suspicious OR DAMAGING TO THE CASE--CHAIN OF CUSTODY DESTROYED, RENDERING "POTENTIAL" EVIDENCE USELESS AT TRIAL?

Any testing done THERE, on that alleged "package" or the undies in it, as has been mentioned, to compare against the degraded panty DNA? Any questions about WHERE the package actually was FOUND, WHEN, and BY WHOM? Where it actually WAS all those years? Any "touch" DNA tests on THOSE? If JonBenet opened the package, or Patsy, were their "touch" skin cells on the package, or any inside the package? How about FINGERPRINTS? Gosh, that old INTRUDER might have handled that package!

Patsy SAID JonBenet put those huge undies on herself, but then Patsy ALSO said she never NOTICED THEM while she was dressing her in bed. Did ANYONE notice those HUGE Bloomies on JonBenet at the Whites, like the other children or any adult? (Forget her parents, they weren't noticing much that night about JonBenet, they said.) If no one noticed those really GIANT (for her--see my avatar) Bloomies on the child, maybe the killer actually put them on JonBenet.

For all their INTRUDER THEORIES, is there ANYONE from the RST who ACTUALLY investigates ALL THE EVIDENCE at hand? Or are they just leaving it to the PSYCHICS and TRACEY and SMIT to find the INTRUDER hanging out in Thailand with the FOREIGN FACTION?

As was said, Boulder isn't footing the bill to find any intruder anymore. All Lacy is doing is LOOKING FOR EVIDENCE TO PROVE SHE'S BEEN RIGHT ALL ALONG. Any evidence which will put more egg on her face after all she's done to "exonerate" the Ramseys AIN'T going to happen.

 

[Tadpole12]

(As Gary Coleman): Watchoo talkin' 'bout, Tadpole? - SD

talkin' 'bout? ..... ooops ... i was being sarcastic.
I just don't understand why more items weren't retested.
Believe that JBR deserves a better form of justice.

 

[BBB167893]

(As Gary Coleman): Watchoo talkin' 'bout, Tadpole? - SD

talkin' 'bout? ..... ooops ... i was being sarcastic.
I just don't understand why more items weren't retested.
Believe that JBR deserves a better form of justice.

You won't get any argument from me.

 

[DeeDee249]

Tadpole, there may very well have been other items that were retested. But f the results were not what the DA wanted to see, it'd never be made public. Or even kept in the file. If I could pick any one item to test- it would have to be the paintbrush handle (all remaining pieces).
Det. Arndt was at the autopsy. She KNOWS whether the missing piece was found inside JBR or if it was just splinters. I will never understand why she has nor spoken out. I know she had "amnesia" after suing the Boulder PD, but you'd think she'd still want to bring the perpetrators of this horrible crime to justice. The memory of poor, dead JBR UNDER THE CHRISTMAS TREE must haunt her every Holiday season.

 

[Tadpole12]

there may very well have been other items that were retested. But f the results were not what the DA wanted to see, it'd never be made public. Or even kept in the file. If I could pick any one item to test ..... DD

Ya hey DD. Thanks for your take .....
ya I def had to do a rethink on the touch dna issue .... I'm still mulling ...

re tranfer:
http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache...ontents/murray.pdf+&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=ca


and chain of evidence:
http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/files/RIC/Publications/williams.txt

Touch” DNA is not meant to
replace latent prints!

Keep log of all personnel that had access
to the scene – for elimination samples



http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/jul/19/boulder-da-ties-hands-of-successor-in-ramsey/

Yet for reasons known only to herself (she has refused all requests for interviews) Lacy has concluded that, in her words, there "is no innocent explanation" for the presence of this DNA on the child's clothing, and that therefore the DNA belongs to the child's murderer.
It's difficult to describe the astounding leaps of logic required to come to that conclusion. On the other hand, simple deduction leads to a genuinely unavoidable conclusion: if the killer wrote the letter, the killer is someone who knew the precise amount of John Ramsey's bonus.

.... or is something more disturbing going on?

 

[Tadpole12]

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/jul/09/boulder-da-clears-ramsey-family-jonbenets-death/

"Lacy said the DA’s office conducted additional testing to rule out any contamination to JonBenet’s body"

so what would that have entailed?

retesting of swabs or instruments?
comparison to dna of personnel on the scene?

who else is eliminated? who provided dna? So who's been elimated within JR "inside job" theory? who's included within 10 days contact period (time frame of the occurance of pervious sexual assault) of JBR.

*I should reread the thread....yep....

 

[DeeDee249]

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/jul/09/boulder-da-clears-ramsey-family-jonbenets-death/

"Lacy said the DA’s office conducted additional testing to rule out any contamination to JonBenet’s body"

so what would that have entailed?

retesting of swabs or instruments?
comparison to dna of personnel on the scene?

who else is eliminated? who provided dna? So who's been elimated within JR "inside job" theory? who's included within 10 days contact period (time frame of the occurance of pervious sexual assault) of JBR.

*I should reread the thread....yep....

We have to remember that although DNA can provide sex, it can't provide the age of the donor (unless semen or other bodily fluids are involved that occur after puberty, even then it is only known that the donor had reached puberty). So ALL males at the White's that day, including children, have to be considered as possible donors. I believe PR said that JBR did have a bath Christmas Eve before they went out to Pasta Jay's, and so we can probably rule out males who were at the R party on the 23rd. But JBR had no bath Christmas Day, so any males who were in her home or company Christmas Day can be considered as possible donors. BR had friends over Christmas Day before going to the White's. If any of these young boys used the bathroom, or even touched doorknobs, JBR can easily have picked up skill cells that way.
This is as easily solved puzzle. All that is needed is for some DA with guts to order the DNA profiles of every male (including those who were chidren then) on the White's guest list and who were at the R home earlier that day. As far as I know, all are still alive. But that'd be easy, that'd maybe provide an innocent explanation. And we know that's not what is wanted by the DA. They want, and always wanted, for the Rs to be exonerated (ostensibly because of their powerful political connections).

 

[BBB167893]

http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/jul/09/boulder-da-clears-ramsey-family-jonbenets-death/

"Lacy said the DA’s office conducted additional testing to rule out any contamination to JonBenet’s body"

so what would that have entailed?

retesting of swabs or instruments?
comparison to dna of personnel on the scene?

who else is eliminated? who provided dna? So who's been elimated within JR "inside job" theory? who's included within 10 days contact period (time frame of the occurance of pervious sexual assault) of JBR.

*I should reread the thread....yep....

Well, you would assume it would entail all of those things, but after almost 12 years, I have a hard time believing that every single instrument was accounted for and every single person could be tracked down.

 

[Roy23]

there may very well have been other items that were retested. But f the results were not what the DA wanted to see, it'd never be made public. Or even kept in the file. If I could pick any one item to test ..... DD

Ya hey DD. Thanks for your take .....
ya I def had to do a rethink on the touch dna issue .... I'm still mulling ...

re tranfer:
http://74.125.95.104/search?q=cache...ontents/murray.pdf+&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=ca


and chain of evidence:
http://www.cops.usdoj.gov/files/RIC/Publications/williams.txt

Touch” DNA is not meant to
replace latent prints!

Keep log of all personnel that had access
to the scene – for elimination samples



http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2008/jul/19/boulder-da-ties-hands-of-successor-in-ramsey/

Yet for reasons known only to herself (she has refused all requests for interviews) Lacy has concluded that, in her words, there "is no innocent explanation" for the presence of this DNA on the child's clothing, and that therefore the DNA belongs to the child's murderer.
It's difficult to describe the astounding leaps of logic required to come to that conclusion. On the other hand, simple deduction leads to a genuinely unavoidable conclusion: if the killer wrote the letter, the killer is someone who knew the precise amount of John Ramsey's bonus.

.... or is something more disturbing going on?

There may have been numerous other tests done that also corroborate an intruder. The fact that none of us message board posters don't know about it could be part of their agenda. They know a lot more than us as much as we don't want to believe it.

 

[DeeDee249]

There may have been numerous other tests done that also corroborate an intruder. The fact that none of us message board posters don't know about it could be part of their agenda. They know a lot more than us as much as we don't want to believe it.

If there was more evidence of an intruder, believe me, we'd know. The RST would be screaming it from the rooftops.
But I do agree that there is MUCH that we don't know. ST said that only 10% of the evidence in this case has been made public, and I believe that.

 

[JMO8778]

Since Thomas left JR out of his public theory (at least until 11 am or so),I really think there is much more evidence of his involvement prior to that time than has been released.He also left out the murder weapon in his scenario (which IMO was the flashlight) and the size 12 underwear as well,which IMO means there are likely things he can't reveal about those.I suspect he also knows more about where the rope and tape went than he let on.(due to the theory he relayed to Smit in his book).
JR trying to account for his fibers and prints on multiple items with so-called innocent explanations is suspect to more evidence there as well.
And if I recall correctly,he makes little mention of the Stines;that IMO is another clue as well.It's the things he doesn't mention that are possibly big clues to more evidence.

 

[Tadpole12]

There may have been numerous other tests done that also corroborate an intruder. The fact that none of us message board posters don't know about it could be part of their agenda. They know a lot more than us as much as we don't want to believe it.

No ... I believe it.


as DeeDee commented . "ST said that only 10% of the evidence in this case has been made public, and I believe that." .... (ty for the parameters re those who may have had physical contact/access to JBR on the 24th and 25th)

that's 90% unknown - hard to figure out the unknowns .... but i suppose some of the evidence taken from the Ramsey home, as warranted by Arndt, may of hit the mark, as far as the RDI theory goes.

but now with the intruder dna theory ... guess it's not a theory ..... rather conclusive according to Lacy and BPD ..... so I was just wondering for 'JR's insidejob theory' who is eliminated from the umbrella-ella-ella
of suspicion:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/DNA Evidence

Who Has Submitted DNA Blood Samples?

Family Members

• John Ramsey (see Internet poster WhyNut's screen captures posted at Starting Over--JonBenet
  • (by Internet poster Margoo) and Forums for Justice (by Internet poster WhyNut); this information confirmed in Daily Times-Call).
• Patsy Ramsey (see Internet poster WhyNut's screen captures posted at Starting Over--JonBenet (by Internet poster Margoo) and Forums for Justice (by Internet poster WhyNut).
• John Andrew Ramsey (see John Ramsey for sources).
• Melinda Ramsey (see John Ramsey for sources).
• Burke Ramsey (see John Ramsey for sources).
• Jeff Ramsey (see John Ramsey for sources).

Ramsey Friends & Neighbors

• Joe Barnhill, Sr.] (see Internet poster Why_Nut's screen capture and his interpretation of what it states; Internet poster Margoo provides an enlarged version and concurs with that interpretation.
• Joe Barnhill, Jr.] (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• Jay Elowsky (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• Barbara Fernie (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• John Fernie (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• Glenn Stine (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• Fleet White (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources); based on the identities of the others, it is assumed this means Fleet White, Jr.)
• Priscilla White] (see Internet poster Why_Nut's screen capture and interpretation; Internet poster Margoo provides an enlarged version and concurs with that interpretation.

People Who Worked for Ramseys

• Linda Hoffman-Pugh (see Priscilla White for sources).
• Mervin Pugh (see Priscilla White for sources).

Others

• Gary Oliva had a saliva sample taken.

Who Has Been Cleared by DNA?

• 60 People Cleared. CBS News reports 60 persons have been "cleared" based on their DNA tests.
• Ramsey Family Members. The DNA does not match John Ramsey, Burke Ramsey, John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey or Jeff Ramsey, the brother of John Ramsey (see Internet poster Jayelles post of 07-05-2004 02:29 PM). This is consistent with a statement by private detective Ollie Gray in a 48 Hours interview, in which he stated the DNA evidence eliminates the Ramseys. A transcript and (blurry) version of the DNA report are posted at Webbsleuths.
• Friends of Family. Internet poster Jayelles has deduced that the DNA also has cleared, Fleet White and Priscilla White
• Other Individuals. Internet poster Jayelles has deduced that the DNA also has cleared Mervin Pugh, the Ramsey's handyman.

Who Has Not Been Cleared by DNA?

• According to Internet poster Athena, according to PMPT "McReynolds and Barnhill's DNA could not be excluded" p182 (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).

 

[RiverRat]

Since Thomas left JR out of his public theory (at least until 11 am or so),I really think there is much more evidence of his involvement prior to that time than has been released.He also left out the murder weapon in his scenario (which IMO was the flashlight) and the size 12 underwear as well,which IMO means there are likely things he can't reveal about those.I suspect he also knows more about where the rope and tape went than he let on.(due to the theory he relayed to Smit in his book).
JR trying to account for his fibers and prints on multiple items with so-called innocent explanations is suspect to more evidence there as well.
And if I recall correctly,he makes little mention of the Stines;that IMO is another clue as well.It's the things he doesn't mention that are possibly big clues to more evidence.

Just a reminder......Steve did not write a TELL ALL book......he wrote a "Tell as Much as I can from my view point to confirm what's already public knowledge" book!

 

[JMO8778]

Just a reminder......Steve did not write a TELL ALL book......he wrote a "Tell as Much as I can from my view point to confirm what's already public knowledge" book!

for sure,also in the book,he was relaying his theory to Smit,and as we all know,you don't give all the cards away to your opponent.(esp. as twisted as Smit has behaved!).
But I thought the underlying theme of molestation was significant.And when ST said it turned to murder when the garrote was applied to JB,I suspect JR was right there when it happened as well,and as such,was part of the decision not to seek medical help for the head injury.And so...he is just as guilty as Patsy.

 

[Roy23]

No ... I believe it.


as DeeDee commented . "ST said that only 10% of the evidence in this case has been made public, and I believe that." .... (ty for the parameters re those who may have had physical contact/access to JBR on the 24th and 25th)

that's 90% unknown - hard to figure out the unknowns .... but i suppose some of the evidence taken from the Ramsey home, as warranted by Arndt, may of hit the mark, as far as the RDI theory goes.

but now with the intruder dna theory ... guess it's not a theory ..... rather conclusive according to Lacy and BPD ..... so I was just wondering for 'JR's insidejob theory' who is eliminated from the umbrella-ella-ella
of suspicion:

http://jonbenetramsey.pbwiki.com/DNA Evidence

Who Has Submitted DNA Blood Samples?

Family Members

• John Ramsey (see Internet poster WhyNut's screen captures posted at Starting Over--JonBenet
  • (by Internet poster Margoo) and Forums for Justice (by Internet poster WhyNut); this information confirmed in Daily Times-Call).
• Patsy Ramsey (see Internet poster WhyNut's screen captures posted at Starting Over--JonBenet (by Internet poster Margoo) and Forums for Justice (by Internet poster WhyNut).
• John Andrew Ramsey (see John Ramsey for sources).
• Melinda Ramsey (see John Ramsey for sources).
• Burke Ramsey (see John Ramsey for sources).
• Jeff Ramsey (see John Ramsey for sources).

Ramsey Friends & Neighbors

• Joe Barnhill, Sr.] (see Internet poster Why_Nut's screen capture and his interpretation of what it states; Internet poster Margoo provides an enlarged version and concurs with that interpretation.
• Joe Barnhill, Jr.] (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• Jay Elowsky (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• Barbara Fernie (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• John Fernie (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• Glenn Stine (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources).
• Fleet White (see Joe Barnhill, Sr. for sources); based on the identities of the others, it is assumed this means Fleet White, Jr.)
• Priscilla White] (see Internet poster Why_Nut's screen capture and interpretation; Internet poster Margoo provides an enlarged version and concurs with that interpretation.

People Who Worked for Ramseys

• Linda Hoffman-Pugh (see Priscilla White for sources).
• Mervin Pugh (see Priscilla White for sources).

Others

• Gary Oliva had a saliva sample taken.

Who Has Been Cleared by DNA?

• 60 People Cleared. CBS News reports 60 persons have been "cleared" based on their DNA tests.
• Ramsey Family Members. The DNA does not match John Ramsey, Burke Ramsey, John Andrew Ramsey, Melinda Ramsey, Patsy Ramsey or Jeff Ramsey, the brother of John Ramsey (see Internet poster Jayelles post of 07-05-2004 02:29 PM). This is consistent with a statement by private detective Ollie Gray in a 48 Hours interview, in which he stated the DNA evidence eliminates the Ramseys. A transcript and (blurry) version of the DNA report are posted at Webbsleuths.
• Friends of Family. Internet poster Jayelles has deduced that the DNA also has cleared, Fleet White and Priscilla White
• Other Individuals. Internet poster Jayelles has deduced that the DNA also has cleared Mervin Pugh, the Ramsey's handyman.

Who Has Not Been Cleared by DNA?

• According to Internet poster Athena, according to PMPT "McReynolds and Barnhill's DNA could not be excluded" p182 (This appears to be a paraphrased reference to paperback version of Schiller).

That is some good stuff Tadpole. I really believe that none of the Ramsey's performed an act of killing. I can go along with a good conspiricy theory but someone else killed this child. I understand the disdain for Mary Lacy but I am certain they got enough to prove the Ramsey's at minimum did not physically kill or sexually assult their daughter. I will just wait for a Codis hit or new information.

 

[JMO8778]

Roy,I don't think I would be holding my breath on that...as has been said before..if ML were truly interested in finding a match,she would be testing all possible innocent sources as well.But that isn't happening,because they don't WANT to find a match.The dna would then be over as a 'connection' to the IDI theory.Better to just let it sit and make wild claims.

And Wiki is full of misinformation (just as Conservapedia is);it's not the same as World Book or Britannica Encyclopedias most of us grew up with...far from it.

 

[Roy23]

Roy,I don't think I would be holding my breath on that...as has been said before..if ML were truly interested in finding a match,she would be testing all possible innocent sources as well.But that isn't happening,because they don't WANT to find a match.The dna would then be over as a 'connection' to the IDI theory.Better to just let it sit and make wild claims.

And Wiki is full of misinformation (just as Conservapedia is);it's not the same as World Book or Britannica Encyclopedias most of us grew up with...far from it.

I don't believe that. They want to find the source. And again, we don't know who they have and haven't tested. They are not going to line up all the citizens of Colorado to have DNA tests. And you are probably right about all that information not being correct. But enough is there to see if you read between the lines that this case has done a 360 and that is why the Ramsey were never indicted.