GUILTY MA - Colleen Ritzer, 24, brutally murdered, Danvers, 22 Oct 2013 #1

[GutInstinct]

Great post Ami!

IMO - if you read the affidavit several times, it sounds to me like CR was not actually killed until later in the act. She was punched in the face first. This MAY be why the student who walked into the bathroom saw no blood - MAYBE there was no blood at that point. It actually could have been in that last (exactly one minute) after the student walked into the bathroom that PC realized he had to finish...his time was up. Ughh.

Also, I too, have a teenager. I am guessing that if my teen were to walk into a school bathroom (especially after school hours) and saw something unusual - he would just exit asap, embarrassed and somewhat "I'm outta here - I didn't even see that - I wasn't here/there" - might have thought it was the cleaning people or a student or a teacher (again since it was after school hours).Remember, what was actually happening would have been the farthest thing from anyone's mind

 

[BeginnersLuck]

RE: Crime very rarely occurs on school grounds.

Have to respectfully disagree with the above statement. Crime happens on school grounds, hence; the reason for security cameras & guards, and metal detectors in some cases. Just not this horrific in the majority of cases, and definitely not with this much ms media coverage...

Ok, maybe I should have elaborated more. lol

Kids may be used to witnessing fights and bullying, oh and maybe drug use. That's about the extent that I can think of, unless you attend a school where there was a mass shooting or other horrific event that would cause you to be hypervigilant. Kids are typically rather naive even though they don't think they are. IMO, many adults would have done the exact same thing this young girl did, if they walked into a bathroom and someone appeared to be nude changing their clothes.

I'm just very glad she did hightail it out of there or there would be two victims. The teacher was already deceased at this point. It has no bearing on the case.

 

[gxm]

You're a grown woman with an interest in and knowledge of crime, who is also presumably used to her body and with years/decades of experience in seeing other women who are also used to their own bodies - this was a young girl who walked in on a naked person unexpectedly in a high school bathroom!

I work with teenagers and am the mother of two myself - her behavior is not odd in the least. Young teen girls aren't accustomed to seeing others buck naked in front them, necessarily, and certainly not out in the open of a school bathroom! But neither would your average teen immediately run to report a naked butt sighting to the principal. You're describing grown experienced woman instincts and you cannot apply those to children in a completely different stage of their mental, emotional and physical development.

Do teenagers no longer change clothes in the locker room together, with a lot of other girls around them changing into, and out of, their gym suits? Even at that age I would have reported a boy or man in the girls bathroom because it would have made me angry that he was in there and I couldn't use the facilities. Heck, I'd have complained about it in grade school.

 

[al66pine]

... Maybe he was just planning to find a way to kill her, and the details sort of emerged as he went. ...

he didn't do anything to wedge the bathroom door closed or keep anyone from entering while he killed her? ....
...he re-entered that bathroom 9 minutes.... after he killed her, wheeling a huge recycling bin? How did he know that in the meantime, no other girl/woman had entered the bathroom and sounded an alarm?
....he STILL came back 9 minutes later, and risked getting caught loading a dead teacher into a recycling bin!
.... he was prepared to take huge risks that day.
--------------------------------------------------------------
BBM SBM for focus

Yes, ami, he took huge risks.

Puzzling that he then went to cinema, bought movie ticket.
As some said, maybe he thought he was establishing an alibi.
But he used her bank card to buy tix and/or meal at Wendy's.
Did not go home and try to "act normal.'

Tried to cover tracks, left physical & electronic trails.

Zig, zag, zig, zag.

JM2cts and I may be wrong.

 

[BeginnersLuck]

I don't understand the reason for questioning the young girls actions. She's obviously an innocent victim that luckily escaped harm. There obviously wasn't much of anyone around for her to say anything to anyway, because no one witnessed PC running around the school, according to the affidavit.

She saw a butt and some clothes and left. What is she suppose to report? That she saw someone changing clothes and a naked butt? It doesn't say that she saw a male, just a butt. Any other action she may have taken, would not have changed the fact that he killed CR. In fact, it may have just put more people in danger.

Can we please drop the discussion of the innocent victim?

 

[al66pine]

Do teenagers no longer change clothes in the locker room together, with a lot of other girls around them changing into, and out of, their gym suits? ....

BBM SBM for focus

^^^This^^^ plus locker rooms at swimming pool, summer camps, also, sleepovers, pajama parties, dressing room for clothes shopping, etc.

Recently while in a dept. store dressing rm, I saw teens of both sexes come and go into the hallway to rooms, and some back into dressing rm w. BF or GF.

And high school students know co-ed college dorms are just a few yrs down the road.***

It seems like teenage girls commonly see each other in clothes-changing or naked situations, more so than adult women.

For a teen girl to have seen a naked butt, recognized it as a male, and dismissed it rather than screaming or notifying school staff does not strike me as being unusual in 2013.(like it would have when I was that age).

JM2cts and I may be wrong.


*** O/T Before co-ed college dorms (single gender dorms, back in the days when dinosaurs roamed the Earth, LOL)
A panty raid was a 1950s college prank in which large groups of male students attempted to invaded the living quarters of female students and steal their panties (undergarments) as the trophies of a successful raid. The term dates to February, 1949.
Panty raid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Panty raids continued in 1950-60s, even early 1970s.

 

[al66pine]

I don't understand the reason for questioning the young girls actions. She's obviously an innocent victim that luckily escaped harm. ....
She saw a butt and some clothes and left. What is she suppose to report? ....
Can we please drop the discussion of the innocent victim?

SBM for focus

Based on our own experiences and feelings, some here feel a teen girl in situation would have reported it and they explain why.
Others here are not surprised at the non-report and explain why.

In reading the posts about the girl's non-scream/non-report reaction, I've understood some would have reported
--now at their current age? or back when they were teens? Or thought any teen girl today would report?

Personally I see her as an innocent (ETA delete 'victim' Insert) witness who luckily escaped harm.

While some may have wondered if a report then might have somehow changed the outcome,
I don't see any posters to 'assign blame' to the teen.


JM2cts and I may be wrong.

 

[LambChop]

Luckily, she wasn't a victim. She is a witness, not a victim. And we are wondering why the witness didn't report what she saw until later when police questioned her. JMO. OMO. MOO.

This young person's behavior is not up for discussion. Having a teen in my family they certainly would not have thought anything more than what they saw, a person who was undressed and they were embarrassed to go any further into the bathroom. I never, ever would have expected what was really taking place unless I actually saw blood splatter all over the floor, which she apparently did not. Perfectly innocent in all respects from her vantage point.

Let's more on and try to remember not to sleuth innocent victims. Don't make me post the TOS, again. lease: :loveyou:

 

[Karmady]

This young person's behavior is not up for discussion. Having a teen in my family they certainly would not have thought anything more than what they saw, a person who was undressed and they were embarrassed to go any further into the bathroom. I never, ever would have expected what was really taking place unless I actually saw blood splatter all over the floor, which she apparently did not. Perfectly innocent in all respects from her vantage point.

Let's more on and try to remember not to sleuth innocent victims. Don't make me post the TOS, again. lease: :loveyou:

Hi Lambchop. I agree that what this teenager did is understandable and, personally, I think it's irrelevant to the discussion because even if we find out why she reacted the way she did it won't have anything to do with the crime. That said, can you please explain how discussing what she did or didn't do violates the TOS and amounts to "sleuthing" minor in this specific instance. I've always thought "sleuthing" involved seeking out and/or posting personal information about a minor. Since you referred to the TOS I went and looked again, and this is all I see about minors:

~sbm

By using the Site, you warrant and promise that you will not post on Site any material or links to other websites that may contain child exploitation material, including, but not limited to, photographs, definitions, terms, phrases, or information leading to discovering child exploitation materials on the internet.

Websleuths.com™ does not allow the naming of, or photographs of, minors (children under the age of 18) on the Site unless the child is a missing or deceased person or where law enforcement has identified the minor as a perpetrator of a crime and the minor will be tried as an adult. If a missing child is found and it is learned that such minor was the victim of child exploitation, references to the child’s name and likeness will be removed, and further posting of such information will not be allowed.

Terms of Service Terms of Service - Long, Detailed Version - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Putting it here since I think I'm probably not the only poster who thought it was okay to discuss what's in the msm about a minor so long as he or she isn't researched or indentified in any way. In the KJ thread, for example, there's been quite a bit of discussion about the statements of minors who were classmates or schoolmates of the deceased. Including their witness statements to the police, just for example. And I'm among the posters who've been discussing them. So if that's a violation of the TOS, I (and likely several others) need to know!

 

[LambChop]

Hi Lambchop. I agree that what this teenager did is understandable and, personally, I think it's irrelevant to the discussion because even if we find out why she reacted the way she did it won't have anything to do with the crime. That said, can you please explain how discussing what she did or didn't do violates the TOS and amounts to "sleuthing" minor in this specific instance. I've always thought "sleuthing" involved seeking out and/or posting personal information about a minor. Since you referred to the TOS I went and looked again, and this is all I see about minors:

~sbm

By using the Site, you warrant and promise that you will not post on Site any material or links to other websites that may contain child exploitation material, including, but not limited to, photographs, definitions, terms, phrases, or information leading to discovering child exploitation materials on the internet.

Websleuths.com™ does not allow the naming of, or photographs of, minors (children under the age of 18) on the Site unless the child is a missing or deceased person or where law enforcement has identified the minor as a perpetrator of a crime and the minor will be tried as an adult. If a missing child is found and it is learned that such minor was the victim of child exploitation, references to the child’s name and likeness will be removed, and further posting of such information will not be allowed.

Terms of Service Terms of Service - Long, Detailed Version - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community


Putting it here since I think I'm probably not the only poster who thought it was okay to discuss what's in the msm about a minor so long as he or she isn't researched or indentified in any way. In the KJ thread, for example, there's been quite a bit of discussion about the statements of minors who were classmates or schoolmates of the deceased. Including their witness statements to the police, just for example. And I'm among the posters who've been discussing them. So if that's a violation of the TOS, I (and likely several others) need to know!

Bottom line is we do not have the right to judge what this minor was thinking at the time and post it in a public form as if she did something wrong when there is no proof of it. It is speculation of the wrong kind. How anyone feels they would react has nothing to do with what happened, nothing to do with the crime. In a flash of a second this young lady witnesses something that she will now never forget for the rest of her life. We do not have the right to sit in judgment because she had personal reasons for not thinking something horrific was happening. Nothing productive can be served by sleuthing this person at this time. If her story changes or other information comes out to discredit her have at it but for now, IMO, there are other areas more important to talk about.

Let's put it this way......put yourself in her shoes. All of us have done things that had we known the outcome we would have done it differently. But do we want to read everyone discussing it on WS's. I don't think so. What she didn't do is not a crime. jmo

 

[Elainera]

I would be wondering what a half dressed guy was doing in the girls bathroom and I would probably try to find someone in authority to complain about it. I agree with Smooth Operator, it just seems odd to me. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad the young woman left and was not injured but I also think it's odd to see something like that and not bring it to a teacher's or principal's attention.

Also, IMO, I would have no problem entering the ladies room and using the facilities if another woman was changing. As women, we are quite accustomed to seeing other women change clothing in front of us and, for me, I would have barely paid attention to it and just walked on by. So it seems likely to me that the young woman instinctively sensed danger. JMO. OMO. MOO.

But she might have recognized this butt as belonging to a guy. If he stood leaning over she might have seen his testicles. And if she saw the butt she probably saw his legs too, another indicator that this was a guy. And she might have even thought, what if this is a teacher, how embarrassing would that be?

ITA agree with all of these thoughts. It's as is he didn't care if he got caught once he began the process of murdering his teacher. Anyone could have entered and one student did, after Ritzer was already dead. The staging is what I think he wanted out of this whole disgusting thing. This goes beyond anger over loss of control in his life, IMO.

It's pure hatred. He was/is consumed by it. So much so that he didn't care if he got caught or not. He might have taken steps to prevent being recognized (the change of clothes) but once he was doing what he had come to do he didn't care anymore.

Question: might his defense argue insanity? Emotional/mental breakdown or something? Onset of schizophrenia? I'm sure they will try to come up with something to lighten his sentence, arguing that he was known everywhere as "nice". What do you all think?

 

[al66pine]

But she might have recognized this butt as belonging to a guy. If he stood leaning over she might have seen his testicles. And if she saw the butt she probably saw his legs too, another indicator that this was a guy. And she might have even thought, what if this is a teacher, how embarrassing would that be? ...

BBM SBM for focus

Hoty cow, never crossed my mind.

 

[liljim]

"Question: might his defense argue insanity? Emotional/mental breakdown or something? Onset of schizophrenia? I'm sure they will try to come up with something to lighten his sentence, arguing that he was known everywhere as "nice". What do you all think?"

I would think they are either going to argue insanity or plea bargain to something that gives him a life sentence but with the possibility of parole.

I think in this case, as I do with any case that involves a death like this, that the person should never be released from incarceration. There are circumstances that I could imagine that would, if this were a death penalty possible case, make me think that the death penalty was not appropriate, but I cant imagine anything that would make me think this person could ever be released.

My personal belief is that if there were some really understandable mitigating circumstance, a brain tumor, horrific abuse of some sort that he suffered extensively while very young, etc... if that were the case then I would like to see them have the possibility of completely owning up to their crime and after a long period of showing true remorse they would be allowed some privileges in prison, not privileges that make things more comfortable for them, but allowed to pursue things that would make some amends to society for their crime.

But I will never believe that a person guilty of a crime like this should ever be free and on their own in society again.

 

[GutInstinct]

interested in ws thoughts on "i hate you all"

who is "you all"?

women, caucasians, teachers, school, community, people, everyone in this place that ive moved to? life? who is the you all directed to....iyo?

 

[liljim]

its really impossible to know what he meant until we know more about what his issues were, i suppose we only find that out if he spoke to anyone about it or if he will talk about it in the future.

i think any opinion on it at this point is way too much speculation to be worth anything.

 

[LambChop]

its really impossible to know what he meant until we know more about what his issues were, i suppose we only find that out if he spoke to anyone about it or if he will talk about it in the future.

i think any opinion on it at this point is way too much speculation to be worth anything.

I hope they do release some type of information as to his motive. We really need to understand why someone so young would perpetrate such a horrific crime. Is it expose to violence in their environment? Or has he always been a depressed child? We can never solve the problem unless we know the truth and try to identify children who feel driven to act out their hostilities. jmo

 

[Foxfire]

When CP was asked where the blood on the box cutter came from, his response, "that girl"
was very unsettling, imo.

 

[Foxfire]

Posted this a couple of pages back. From known info and info mined from PC's internet history, etc., imo investigators should have a vivid picture painted as to his motivation. It is very difficult for me to comprehend or accept that CR was PC's first victim...

Vernon J. Geberth is the author of PRACTICAL HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION: Tactics, Procedures, and Forensic Techniques. PRACTICAL HOMICIDE INVESTIGATION® is recognized in the law enforcement field as "The Bible of Homicide Investigation".


Anatomy of a Lust Murder
By Vernon J. Geberth, M.S., M.P.S.
Former Commander, Bronx Homicide, NYPD

AUTHOR'S DEFINITION OF LUST MURDER

"Lust murders are homicides in which the offender stabs, cuts, pierces or mutilates the sexual regions or organs of the victim's body. The sexual mutilation of the victim may include evisceration, piquerism, displacement of the genitalia in both males and females and the removal of the breasts in a female victim (defeminization).

It also includes activities such as "posing" and "propping" of the body, the insertion of objects into the body cavities, anthropophagy (consumption of blood and/or flesh) and necrophilia."

Lust Murders are predicated on the obsessive fantasies of the offender. It is not enough for these type killers just to kill; they have a compulsive need to act out their fantasies with their victims and their victim's bodies. This would be the "Signature" component of the crime.
<sniped - read More>

http://www.practicalhomicide.com/articles/lustmurder.htm

 

[ami]

This young person's behavior is not up for discussion. Having a teen in my family they certainly would not have thought anything more than what they saw, a person who was undressed and they were embarrassed to go any further into the bathroom. I never, ever would have expected what was really taking place unless I actually saw blood splatter all over the floor, which she apparently did not. Perfectly innocent in all respects from her vantage point.

Let's more on and try to remember not to sleuth innocent victims. Don't make me post the TOS, again. lease: :loveyou:

I have a teen girl in my family and she would have behaved the same way. It's one thing to think what a teen "should" have done, based on what one might imagine happens in slumber parties and gym locker rooms and public changing room (where your friends and classmates in any case don't tend to be buck naked, bending over, butt pointed at you - please!) but in reality that's completely unrealistic. Her behavior and reaction seems consistent with her age.

I don't think there's any more "why" to her reaction than exactly what was stated and acting exactly as one would expect her to act in those circumstances.

And I think she IS a victim. She witnessed what she now knows to be a psychopathic murderer who had just killed and raped her teacher and narrowly evaded being another casualty. She's probably traumatized and filled with fear, guilt and anxiety. She may suffer from this for the rest of her life.

 

[SmoothOperator]

could you just link those pages instead of embedding the images?

i think some high school age girls would react as you would hope, but i think there are plenty that would just be shocked but not necessarily think they walked in on anything nefarious but instead think they just caught two kids fooling around etc, something relatively innocent, and just be embarrassed and get out of there.

Sorry, my only reason for posting the actual pages is due to the fact that there are members here on WS who are unable for various reasons to be able to view PDF documents.. In having taken note of this issue in several different cases it was helpful to have the docs posted for those who were unable to view certain documents that were of significance and were an integral part of the ongoing discussions..

If for whatever reason you may find this to be a problem here in Colleen's threads I am quite certain that a moderator can address the issue and remove the above posted docs..

HTH

**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**