GUILTY MA - Colleen Ritzer, 24, brutally murdered, Danvers, 22 Oct 2013 #1

Status
Not open for further replies.
I believe it was stated in the opening by the prosecution that he in fact brought the items the day before. Not sure if he just carried it everyday, just in case.

I thought the opening statement said he went to school with a "terrible purpose" and that he brought with him gloves and a boxcutter... if he brought them in the day before, he would still have had to carry them around with him if he was looking for an opportunity.

Oh well, in my mind it doesn't change the outcome at all, but my mind always boggles when I hear about these chance opportunities that are seized at just the right moment by criminals with who've prepared with evil intent.
 
I am so glad the school had recently installed so many security cameras and that they were working when this happened.

I think the prosecution must love the fact that almost every single detail in this case is just so easy to prove. This murder is obviously the work of someone who did not think through their plan at all in terms of covering his tracks.
 
Premeditated --- insane

It's not either/or, is it? I mean, someone who's insane can still plan a murder?
 
Premeditated --- insane

It's not either/or, is it? I mean, someone who's insane can still plan a murder?

No, premeditation and insanity are not mutually exclusive. But someone who is legally insane in the US can't understand the difference between right and wrong and so should not show guilt by actions such as hiding the crime. Some types of mental illness wouldn't allow the killer to behave in as organized a fashion as Chism did, but that is not true of all types of mental illness, so people with some mental illnesses would be able to carefully plan a murder and others would not.
 
No, premeditation and insanity are not mutually exclusive. But someone who is legally insane in the US can't understand the difference between right and wrong and so should not show guilt by actions such as hiding the crime. Some types of mental illness wouldn't allow the killer to behave in as organized a fashion as Chism did, but that is not true of all types of mental illness, so people with some mental illnesses would be able to carefully plan a murder and others would not.

Thank you for making this a bit clearer for me.

Regarding the sentence I bolded - but could a legally insane person still understand that they will end up in prison if found out and therefore hide the crime - not because they feel guilt and understand that it was wrong what they did?
 
This case is pretty sickening. Cases like this ought to serve as just more proof that there should be no age threshold for separating youth crime from adult crime, when it comes to serious criminal cases involving death or serious injury of victims. Every violent criminal should be tried "as an adult". Only petty crime, like theft, fraud, drug-related or minor scuffles, etc - should allow for this age discrimination, so as to give youngster's a chance to rehabilitate their long lives ahead. But serious criminal cases involving death and injury should be given no second chances, as these cases serve to expose a damaged individual that is likely incapable of change (nor do they deserve such second changes from a punitive perspective).

With regards to this case, the defense's argument of mental illness is weak. There is clear planning and forethought. He was hooded up, brought weapons and was wearing gloves - this shows intent to cover his tracks and evade capture. These are logical thoughts and indicates he knew right from wrong and was of sound mind.

I also believe this suspect would have committed more crime had he not been caught. He is a budding criminal, seemingly 'natural born' and wired to be such, who was luckily stopped in his tracks.

He appears to show no remorse and devoid of emotions, which compounded with his deranged crime, suggests he's pretty high up there on the PCL-E psychopathy scale.

IMO he should spend the rest of his natural days locked up in a cell.
 
Thank you for making this a bit clearer for me.

Regarding the sentence I bolded - but could a legally insane person still understand that they will end up in prison if found out and therefore hide the crime - not because they feel guilt and understand that it was wrong what they did?

The insanity defense is tricky, because each state has its own variation on how it works. As Skigirl mentioned, many states use a test which states that the defendant - at the time of the offense - must not understand right from wrong, or does not understand the quality of his actions (this is the M'Naughten test). Massachusetts, however, uses the Model Penal Code definition for the insanity defense, which states “a person is not responsible for criminal conduct if, at the time of such conduct, as a result of mental disease or defect he lacks substantial capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct or to conform his conduct to the requirements of the law.” Although this sounds similar to the M'Naughten test, there are some key differences, and that affects the answer to your question.

The Model Penal Code defense is, on paper, easier to achieve for a defendant than the M'Naughten test, as it accepts a broader range of mental issues. I can see why Chism's attorneys are pursuing this, because I can see the argument that his mental issues keep him from having the capacity to appreciate the wrongfulness of his conduct. To be clear, I don't think they will succeed. There are certain mental issues that could cause a person to hide what they have done for reasons that have nothing to do with appreciating the wrongfulness of their actions, such as some sort of paranoid break with reality. A person could also later in time hide the evidence of what they have done when their psychotic moment has passed and still be considered not guilty by reason of insanity if it can be proven than they had no perception of the wrongfulness of their conduct during that act. Usually, in this sort of instance, there has to be a longer gap in time for it to be believed by the jury.

So, bringing it back to Chism. In his case, the defense is going to argue that, because of whatever mental health issue Chism has been diagnosed with, he lacks the capacity to understand what he's doing is wrong or is unable to control himself to comply with the law. That's a high bar to clear, and it's likely to fail because so much of what he has done is on video and looks to be premeditation. Further, his actions to cover up the crime are too close in time to the murder, and so they aren't going to be able to make a successful argument that some sort of psychosis had passed.

tl; dr - in rare cases, covering up a crime does not preclude an insanity defense, but it's not going to fly in this one. :twocents:
 
Thank you for making this a bit clearer for me.

Regarding the sentence I bolded - but could a legally insane person still understand that they will end up in prison if found out and therefore hide the crime - not because they feel guilt and understand that it was wrong what they did?

According to Florida law even if the defendant knew the consequences they must prove that at the time of the crime the defendant didn't know it was wrong. It is the defendants burden to prove beyond a reasonable doubt the insanity exists, that is very difficult to prove.

Here's the Florida law on using an insanity defense:


775.027 Insanity defense.—
(1) AFFIRMATIVE DEFENSE.—All persons are presumed to be sane. It is an affirmative defense to a criminal prosecution that, at the time of the commission of the acts constituting the offense, the defendant was insane. Insanity is established when a) The defendant had a mental infirmity, disease, or defect; and
(b) Because of this condition, the defendant:
1. Did not know what he or she was doing or its consequences; or
2. Although the defendant knew what he or she was doing and its consequences, the defendant did not know that what he or she was doing was wrong.

Mental infirmity, disease, or defect does not constitute a defense of insanity except as provided in this subsection.
(2) BURDEN OF PROOF.—The defendant has the burden of proving the defense of insanity by clear and convincing evidence.
 
Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 27m27 minutes ago
Judge Lowy expected to address media again today after another violation - TV camera showed juror faces Wednesday.

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 10m10 minutes ago
Judge has booted video camera from courtroom

Laurel J. SweetVerified account ‏@Laurel_Sweet 10m10 minutes ago
Sure enough, Lowy, through Court Officer Paul Gaeta, has tossed today's @7News pool video out of court.

Cathy ‏@courtchatter 8m8 minutes ago
That's not the first time we've seen cameras yanked for inadvertently showing a juror, it's unfortunate.

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 7m7 minutes ago
But for 2 days in a row, the pool video camera has broadcast transmitted content that is prohibited under court rules
 
Victoria WarrenVerified account ‏@vwarrenon7 7m7 minutes ago
#PhilipChism back in court, quietly staring ahead. It's his usual demeanor during trial.

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 6m6 minutes ago
Judge is calling lawyers to sidebar.

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 6m6 minutes ago
The pool video camera operator has packed up and left courtroom. There will be NO live feed today or video coverage.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 4m4 minutes ago
Lowy addressing media now, will repeat rules, TV cameras not allowed in today at a minimim

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 3m3 minutes ago
Lowy detailing issues with TV cameras/live feed. Most aggregious thing that can happen 2 juror faces shown

Laurel J. SweetVerified account ‏@Laurel_Sweet 1m1 minute ago
Lowy reveals yesterday's pool "zoomed in" on a prosecutorial document not yet shown in court, risking mistrial for #PhilipChism.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
"I warned the press that violating the court order has nothing to do with me. It's about the integrity of the trial." -Lowy

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 51s52 seconds ago
Lowy: "I could not be a bigger supporter of the media covering what's happening during the trial."
 
Thank you jacct and AnaTeresa for your explanations! This makes it much clearer for me.
 
Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 46s47 seconds ago
A still camera is still in the courtroom and will photograph images from the proceedings.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 54s54 seconds ago
Lowy apologizing to jury for not starting earlier

Victoria WarrenVerified account ‏@vwarrenon7 46s46 seconds ago
Jury back in court, about to get on with testimony. First up should be janitorial staff re. cleaning of school bathroom

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 45s45 seconds ago
Vinicio Pimentel, who supervised a private cleaning crew at Danvers High, is back on the witness stand.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Photo of bloodstained wall in bathroom on courtroom projection screen

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Pimental using laser pointer to show where he saw blood in girls room

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
After finding blood, Pimental went to find custodian

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 56s56 seconds ago
Pimental told custodian "I find blood in women bathroom on second floor."

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 48s48 seconds ago
Pimentel went to look for a school custodian. He found "Danny." He tried to tell him English what he saw.

allison manningVerified account ‏@allymanning 36s37 seconds ago
He said he didn't ask the custodian, Danny, to come look at the bathroom. Why? "It's his responsibility"

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 53s53 seconds ago
Pimentel told Danny about the blood in the bathroom. Danny gave him a hose and a key to turn on a spigot.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Pimental using laser pointer to show on pic how he hooked up a hose under sink in girls bathroom
 
Nicole JacobsVerified account ‏@NicoleJacobsWBZ 1m1 minute ago
Janitor discussing the cleaning of the women's restroom. #PhilipChism again turns to look at slide. Seems attentive.

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 1m1 minute ago
The blood was washed down the floor drain.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Pimental points with laser to a drain in the floor area

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 32s32 seconds ago
Then he got a floor cleaning machine.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Pic of cleaning machine on projection screen now

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 36s37 seconds ago
Pimental talking about retrieving the machine/bringing to bathroom, it is used to wash floor, has a squeegee to extract water

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 45s46 seconds ago
Pimental also used a mop

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Cleaned bathroom with Nutro Cleaning, a chemical to wash the floor

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 54s55 seconds ago
Took him about 45 mins to clean the bathroom up

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 54s55 seconds ago
He was the only one on the cleaning team that cleaned bathroom
 
Victoria WarrenVerified account ‏@vwarrenon7 7m7 minutes ago
#PhilipChism back in court, quietly staring ahead. It's his usual demeanor during trial.

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 6m6 minutes ago
Judge is calling lawyers to sidebar.

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 6m6 minutes ago
The pool video camera operator has packed up and left courtroom. There will be NO live feed today or video coverage.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 4m4 minutes ago
Lowy addressing media now, will repeat rules, TV cameras not allowed in today at a minimim

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 3m3 minutes ago
Lowy detailing issues with TV cameras/live feed. Most aggregious thing that can happen 2 juror faces shown

Laurel J. SweetVerified account ‏@Laurel_Sweet 1m1 minute ago
Lowy reveals yesterday's pool "zoomed in" on a prosecutorial document not yet shown in court, risking mistrial for #PhilipChism.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
"I warned the press that violating the court order has nothing to do with me. It's about the integrity of the trial." -Lowy

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 51s52 seconds ago
Lowy: "I could not be a bigger supporter of the media covering what's happening during the trial."

When they zoomed in on that photo yesterday I was like WTH is that media person thinking when they zoomed in on a personal Attorney document ... I thought WHOA .. That will get them kicked out of the courtroom. I watched CroakerQueen afterwards and did not realize jurors were shown. :facepalm:
 
Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 46s47 seconds ago
A still camera is still in the courtroom and will photograph images from the proceedings.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 54s54 seconds ago
Lowy apologizing to jury for not starting earlier

Victoria WarrenVerified account ‏@vwarrenon7 46s46 seconds ago
Jury back in court, about to get on with testimony. First up should be janitorial staff re. cleaning of school bathroom

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 45s45 seconds ago
Vinicio Pimentel, who supervised a private cleaning crew at Danvers High, is back on the witness stand.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Photo of bloodstained wall in bathroom on courtroom projection screen

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Pimental using laser pointer to show where he saw blood in girls room

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
After finding blood, Pimental went to find custodian

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 56s56 seconds ago
Pimental told custodian "I find blood in women bathroom on second floor."

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 48s48 seconds ago
Pimentel went to look for a school custodian. He found "Danny." He tried to tell him English what he saw.

allison manningVerified account ‏@allymanning 36s37 seconds ago
He said he didn't ask the custodian, Danny, to come look at the bathroom. Why? "It's his responsibility"

Julie Manganis ‏@SNJulieManganis 53s53 seconds ago
Pimentel told Danny about the blood in the bathroom. Danny gave him a hose and a key to turn on a spigot.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Pimental using laser pointer to show on pic how he hooked up a hose under sink in girls bathroom

I wonder if Danny is still working for the school? :banghead:
 
Bob Ward Fox25Verified account ‏@Bward3 43s43 seconds ago
Osler: Entire floor covered in blood?Pimental YesOsler: ever see that much blood in school b4?Pimental: never

Laura Crimaldi ‏@lauracrimaldi 51s51 seconds ago
Defense attorney John Osler is now cross examining Pimentel.

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 47s48 seconds ago
Osler asks if it looked like a student had a nosebleed? I could not differentiate, Pimental says

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Osler asking Pimental about machine he used to clean up blood

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 2m2 minutes ago
Pimental says blood was running out from underneath bathroom stalls

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
"I had never seen anything like it," Pimental said. Told defense investigator bathroom looked like a slaughterhouse

Jill Harmacinski ‏@EagleTribJill 1m1 minute ago
Pimental testimony done. Next witness is Dan Marshall
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
80
Guests online
731
Total visitors
811

Forum statistics

Threads
625,990
Messages
18,518,072
Members
240,919
Latest member
LynnKC84
Back
Top