MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #21 Retrial

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So don't believe their work would hold up but go gaga over Trooper Paul's "reconstruction"
No one went gaga over trooper Paul. Certainly not me. I’ve posted my thoughts in this thread and many others.
I only see people going gaga over the sketchy testing parameters, limited data, from results of ARCCA.

This is trial number 2
The CW will not make the same mistake during this trial.

IMO that whole Karen “cracked it while backing onto John’s car while leaving the garage” is going to be put to bed too. Bumpers matter.
 
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Thank you. I never realised that it was the CW that had the ARCCA stuff first. I thought both sides were provided the ARCCA findings simultaneously by the DOJ. This info that the ARCCA report only came to defense's attention via cw finally ceding it in discovery dump makes me speculate even more as to what on earth was going in the collective head of the DA/PA. Moo
It just supports my sense and as we have been pretty much shown, that Proctor decided it was the "girl" who killed John and anything that did not support prosecuting Karen was ignored. JMO
 
I'm finding it very interesting how key witnesses have changed their story over time, often by omitting certain information that completely changes the context.

An example is Paramedic Daniel Whitley testifying that KR refused to give a urine sample, but then being made to admit by Yannetti that the actual context included KR being on her period, not having a tampon, and not having a chance to have any privacy to either change her tampon or provide a urine sample because of the Psych order.

Or "I hit him, I hit him, I hit him" being completely different to "Did I hit him? Could I have hit him?

I know some have questioned the aggressive nature of cross examination by the defence, but the bottom line is this case is marred by misinformation and half truths, and that makes it very difficult for the jury to understand the context under which certain things were said or the context under which certain things happened.
One interesting thing about these same witnesses is that they've all been groomed by the CW every step of the way by getting them to review their video testimonies, written documentation, recorded telephone calls, and so on, yet they still get pertinent details wrong. They become defiant and think they can fool the jury. This defense is impeccable in their detail orientation, and they're not letting these arrogant and misunderstood witnesses get away with any nonsense.
KerR: "I misunderstood Mr Lally's question." "Not intentionally Mr Jackson".
Both EMTs/Firefighter: "My memory is as good now as it was then".
MOO
 
I think if she's to be found guilty, her own interviews will be her downfall. When a jury doesn't hear from the defendent during the trial, extra weight might be put on her own words they hear on the screen. I can't think her defence thought those interviews were a wise choice.
 
I think that Peggy may believe that just the fact that Karen left him at the party makes her guilty of anything and everythng that happened after that. Just the way she said the part about "you left him at the party?" like incredulous that Karen would leave without John - she did not even ask for context.
She just thinks it was Karen's job to wait for John.
Like if she hadn't left him at the party her Johnny would still be alive. My sense is that she never liked Karen - and thought she was trouble from the jump.
jmo
I would tend to agree that PO didn’t/doesn’t like KR. During trial 1, one of the first couple of days, maybe Defense opening statement, she leaned over to the person on her left and laughed during when defense spoke of Proctor looking for nude photos of her. I was looking at her feeling so sorry for her, then when she did this I thought ‘ok, she’s a feisty one.’
 
One interesting thing about these same witnesses is that they've all been groomed by the CW every step of the way by getting them to review their video testimonies, written documentation, recorded telephone calls, and so on, yet they still get pertinent details wrong. They become defiant and think they can fool the jury. This defense is impeccable in their detail orientation, and they're not letting these arrogant and misunderstood witnesses get away with any nonsense.
KerR: "I misunderstood Mr Lally's question." "Not intentionally Mr Jackson".
Both EMTs/Firefighter: "My memory is as good now as it was then".
MOO
I’d like to know what the jury members are thinking. Prosecution SEEMS to be doing a good job painting KR as an outspoken, stubborn, clingy girlfriend with a bad temper and a penchant for alcohol.
 
Two random thoughts:

I think JO’s mom finally has someone to blame after losing two of her children. Health issues took her daughter, so can’t point her rage there. Karen, though, is a living, breathing thing that she can point rage towards. Maybe she didn’t like KR even before this, I don’t know, haven’t kept track of that. Just a random thought I had. I am a little confused though when she said she asked why KR was at the hospital — did we hear that before or is this new?

This trial feels so messy compared to the first one. This thread isn’t even as active as it was in the first trial, though maybe it’s because the trial just started? I’m really looking forward to seeing proctor on the stand because he can’t have pride and ego to hide behind. Since he lost his job. But then again with what we’ve seen of him, he will probably still be the same old proctor with the same attitude. Maybe even worse?

ETA I watched that docuseries thing. Her attorneys are smart. They must have a reason for letting her do those, though I’m not sure why.

All jmo
 
Two random thoughts:

I think JO’s mom finally has someone to blame after losing two of her children. Health issues took her daughter, so can’t point her rage there. Karen, though, is a living, breathing thing that she can point rage towards. Maybe she didn’t like KR even before this, I don’t know, haven’t kept track of that. Just a random thought I had. I am a little confused though when she said she asked why KR was at the hospital — did we hear that before or is this new?

This trial feels so messy compared to the first one. This thread isn’t even as active as it was in the first trial, though maybe it’s because the trial just started? I’m really looking forward to seeing proctor on the stand because he can’t have pride and ego to hide behind. Since he lost his job. But then again with what we’ve seen of him, he will probably still be the same old proctor with the same attitude. Maybe even worse?

ETA I watched that docuseries thing. Her attorneys are smart. They must have a reason for letting her do those, though I’m not sure why.

All jmo
She came across very poorly in those IMO.
 
I’d like to know what the jury members are thinking. Prosecution SEEMS to be doing a good job painting KR as an outspoken, stubborn, clingy girlfriend with a bad temper and a penchant for alcohol.
and blames everything on others

It was the bar’s fault she drank so much her BAC was .09 at 9am in the morning.

It was John’s idea she add a shot to every drink she ordered.

It was John’s that told her to take her last drink with her. This one drink, the vodka & tonic she ordered had two shots added to it.

She thought she “unwittingly hit him and may have incapacitated him”
She ultimately blames his drunkenness for passing out and dying even in this version.


I’m not diagnosing Karen with anything, I just find this very intriguing.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD):

• Individuals with NPD may blame others to protect their fragile self-esteem or maintain a grandiose self-image. They often struggle to accept fault and may deflect criticism onto others.

• DSM-5 criteria for NPD include a lack of empathy, a sense of entitlement, and a need for admiration, which can manifest as blaming others for personal failures.



Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD):

People with BPD may externalize blame during emotional instability, especially when feeling criticized or abandoned. They might project their feelings onto others to cope with intense emotions.

• DSM-5 criteria include unstable relationships, impulsivity, and emotional dysregulation, which can contribute to blaming behaviors.





Antisocial Personality Disorder (ASPD):

  • Individuals with ASPD may blame others as part of a broader pattern of disregard for responsibility or societal norms. They often lack remorse and may manipulate others to avoid accountability.
  • DSM-5 criteria include deceitfulness, impulsivity, and a failure to conform to social norms
 
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Two random thoughts:

I think JO’s mom finally has someone to blame after losing two of her children. Health issues took her daughter, so can’t point her rage there. Karen, though, is a living, breathing thing that she can point rage towards. Maybe she didn’t like KR even before this, I don’t know, haven’t kept track of that. Just a random thought I had. I am a little confused though when she said she asked why KR was at the hospital — did we hear that before or is this new?

This trial feels so messy compared to the first one. This thread isn’t even as active as it was in the first trial, though maybe it’s because the trial just started? I’m really looking forward to seeing proctor on the stand because he can’t have pride and ego to hide behind. Since he lost his job. But then again with what we’ve seen of him, he will probably still be the same old proctor with the same attitude. Maybe even worse?

ETA I watched that docuseries thing. Her attorneys are smart. They must have a reason for letting her do those, though I’m not sure why.

All jmo
IMO by the time Proctor takes the stand, I have a feeling the jury is gonna think he was rude & inappropriate but SPOT ON in his evaluation on who killed John
 
I’d like to know what the jury members are thinking. Prosecution SEEMS to be doing a good job painting KR as an outspoken, stubborn, clingy girlfriend with a bad temper and a penchant for alcohol.
Honestly, I think they both acted like middle schoolers in those text messages. John was no better with that ridiculous drama over the plumber. Having said that, I'd hate for someone to read my text messages to a significant other when we were in an argument. I'm sure I would sound like a lunatic on occasion. LOL! Those are a big nothing burger to me since I can relate to relationship text stupidity. IMO
 
I’d like to know what the jury members are thinking. Prosecution SEEMS to be doing a good job painting KR as an outspoken, stubborn, clingy girlfriend with a bad temper and a penchant for alcohol.
This is still Week 1 with 6 or 7 more weeks to go. I think the defense will paint a good picture of the tight-knit Canton service personnel community and their connections to everyone else in this trial. It's becoming clear that they were all talking about the trial and hearing rumors from their friends and nieghbors over time, which has corrupted their memories. And poor KerR had no clue she was being manipulated by JenMc to make false statements until AJ pointed it out to her. I wonder how long their new friendship will last after this trial.
MOO
 
IMO by the time Proctor takes the stand, I have a feeling the jury is gonna think he was rude & inappropriate but SPOT ON in his evaluation on who killed John
i dont think this is going to go well for Proctor at all. This man is a FORMER lead investigator in this case, a FORMER police officer, and was fired because of his poor investigation IN THIS CASE. The investigation was sloppy, and lazy, and those texts are going to make him look worse than it did a year ago.

This isnt about being inappropriate. He isnt up there as himself. He is up there because he was meant to be a professional..and he did not fulfill that duty as an officer. His only job was to professionally document a series of events which includes protocol, procedure, and chain of custody.
 
I would tend to agree that PO didn’t/doesn’t like KR. During trial 1, one of the first couple of days, maybe Defense opening statement, she leaned over to the person on her left and laughed during when defense spoke of Proctor looking for nude photos of her. I was looking at her feeling so sorry for her, then when she did this I thought ‘ok, she’s a feisty one.’
I've always had empathy for her while watching her sitting in the courtroom and I've been impressed with not personally seeing any negative reactions from her. Then, I was surprised by her testimony and agree with you. What stood out to me was when Brennan asked her to tell the jury about her son. Instead, she described only his employment and then after Brennan asked her again, she said he was a good caregiver to the children, and had a love of sports. But zero about him as a PERSON. I was waiting for her to say how loved he was, or that he was kind or gentle or funny or giving, but there was none of that. I found this surprising since a mother would be the best one to describe how special their child is. Yet nothing.
MOO
 
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I think that Peggy may believe that just the fact that Karen left him at the party makes her guilty of anything and everythng that happened after that. Just the way she said the part about "you left him at the party?" like incredulous that Karen would leave without John - she did not even ask for context.
She just thinks it was Karen's job to wait for John.
Like if she hadn't left him at the party her Johnny would still be alive. My sense is that she never liked Karen - and thought she was trouble from the jump.
jmo
I was not impressed by her testimony. I believe Karen Read when she said that Peg stated it looked like he was run over by a car and that she said it in the same manner as Karen mirrored in the documentary.
MOO
 
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This is still Week 1 with 6 or 7 more weeks to go. I think the defense will paint a good picture of the tight-knit Canton service personnel community and their connections to everyone else in this trial. It's becoming clear that they were all talking about the trial and hearing rumors from their friends and nieghbors over time, which has corrupted their memories. And poor KerR had no clue she was being manipulated by JenMc to make false statements until AJ pointed it out to her. I wonder how long their new friendship will last after this trial.
MOO
It's funny how we all come away with different judgements of witnesses.

My impression of Kerry Roberts was that she was a completely credible witness, a very caring and kind lady, and she misspoke at the GJ, because by that time she had heard that Karen asked Jen to make a search, without any intention of misleading anyone. It didn't negate her testimony, IMO. I can't believe the derogatory comments made here about her, or Peggy.

As a juror I wouldn't think much of the way K Roberts was treated by the defense. Trying to make out she was a dishonest witness didn't work, IMO.
 
Honestly, I think they both acted like middle schoolers in those text messages. John was no better with that ridiculous drama over the plumber. Having said that, I'd hate for someone to read my text messages to a significant other when we were in an argument. I'm sure I would sound like a lunatic on occasion. LOL! Those are a big nothing burger to me since I can relate to relationship text stupidity. IMO
I don't think it's so much how they said it, but what they said. I don't think you can reasonably say it's a nothingburger - that along with other evidence we know is to come, certainly paint the picture of a relationship in a very strained state. Couple those emotions with KR and JO(?) being drunk and you've got some volatile conditions around his murder.

re: others reading relationship texts, emails. happy to have that never happen!
 
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