MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #23 Retrial

[rescuemom]

Thinking about the perception of Judge Cannone's favoritism for the CW, which has been blatant to many I presume, I have come to believe that she is now just letting it go. She knows this case will end up hung again, or KR will be acquitted. She knows it's a loosah for the CW. It always has been. But her heavy handed tipping the scales just proves to me, that she may be quietly saying to the CW ( DA Morrisey).."I have done everything I possibly can for you in this case...don't re-try it again"

MOO

You're assuming she has any influence with D.A. Morrisey

 

[Snoop Sister]

Looking for any possible way to blame a person for another persons death is not how murder investigation is supposed to work.

Since there is no evidence that JOK was hit by a car, how exactly do you suggest that KR is culpable?

Hi Spectrix
What I said, as you only bolded part of the culpability sentence…is that I am not convinced that she isn’t culpable. However, I am not convinced she is. I watched T1, but I am waiting to see if any new evidence is brought forth in T2. I am fence sitting at the moment in my thoughts re KR.

 

[HarmonyE.]

You're assuming she has any influence with D.A. Morrisey

I think any assumptions would be the other way 'round. He's the powerful one.

 

[Wishbone]

Hi Spectrix
What I said, as you only bolded part of the culpability sentence…is that I am not convinced that she isn’t culpable. However, I am not convinced she is. I watched T1, but I am waiting to see if any new evidence is brought forth in T2. I am fence sitting at the moment in my thoughts re KR.

Assault by cocktail glass as a possibility? That hardly sounds to be open to new evidence to me unless one is looking for what else she could have killed him with since he wasn't hit by a car. JMOO

 

[Snoop Sister]

Assault by cocktail glass as a possibility? That hardly sounds to be open to new evidence to me unless one is looking for what else she could have killed him with since he wasn't hit by a car. JMOO

I was just throwing that out there. But, could the cuts on his arm be from a broken glass? Certainly not saying that was the cause of his death!! I have trouble with how words are switched around.

 

[Wishbone]

I was just throwing that out there. But, could the cuts on his arm be from a broken glass?

You'll have to ask one of the experts if that is an option.

 

[rescuemom]

The thing about the experts in this case is that ARCCA was given the pertinent elements about the death of JOK regarding the bodily injuries and the suspect vehicle and asked to determine if that vehicle caused those injuries. This testing was at the request of and paid for by the FBI in conjunction with ANOTHER CASE prior to Trial #1. The results of their testing were later provided to BOTH the CW and the Defense team. Only the defense elected to use their findings. It was then that they paid ARCCA for their participation and expenses.
For those not familiar with ARCCA and those testifying in this case:

ARCCA: Expert Forensic, Scientific and Engineering Solutions

Discover the ARCCA advantage with our forensic analysis & engineering, expert witness consulting services, and forensic accident reconstruction solutions.

arcca.com

Andrew Rentschler, Ph.D. | ARCCA Experts & Engineers

Dr. Rentschler is a biomechanist specializing in the study of the forces and mechanics associated with injuries to the human body with ARCCA.

arcca.com

Daniel M. Wolfe, Ph.D., ACTAR | ARCCA Experts & Engineers

Dr. Wolfe is a forensic scientist and accident reconstructionist specializing in the reconstruction of motor vehicle, pedestrian, and bicycle collisions.

arcca.com

Exactly. The defense chose to use AARCA. The CW didn't like what they had to say.

 

[rescuemom]

The thing about the experts in this case is that ARCCA was given the pertinent elements about the death of JOK regarding the bodily injuries and the suspect vehicle and asked to determine if that vehicle caused those injuries. This testing was at the request of and paid for by the FBI in conjunction with ANOTHER CASE prior to Trial #1. The results of their testing were later provided to BOTH the CW and the Defense team. Only the defense elected to use their findings. It was then that they paid ARCCA for their participation and expenses.
For those not familiar with ARCCA and those testifying in this case:

ARCCA: Expert Forensic, Scientific and Engineering Solutions

Discover the ARCCA advantage with our forensic analysis & engineering, expert witness consulting services, and forensic accident reconstruction solutions.

arcca.com

Andrew Rentschler, Ph.D. | ARCCA Experts & Engineers

Dr. Rentschler is a biomechanist specializing in the study of the forces and mechanics associated with injuries to the human body with ARCCA.

arcca.com

Daniel M. Wolfe, Ph.D., ACTAR | ARCCA Experts & Engineers

Dr. Wolfe is a forensic scientist and accident reconstructionist specializing in the reconstruction of motor vehicle, pedestrian, and bicycle collisions.

arcca.com

This testing was at the request of and paid for by the FBI in conjunction with ANOTHER CASE prior to Trial #1.

Wonder what that other case was about?? Was it in Mass? In this county?? Who is looking over their shoulder??

 

[HarmonyE.]

This testing was at the request of and paid for by the FBI in conjunction with ANOTHER CASE prior to Trial #1.

Wonder what that other case was about?? Was it in Mass? In this county?? Who is looking over their shoulder??

It's speculated the FBI first got involved in investigating the Canton PD and the state police after a young woman named Sandra Birchmore was murdered in Canton by a Stoughton cop.

There are threads out here. Both the state and Canton police were happy to let him get away with it. The FBI had to get involved and charge him with Federal crimes. He's awaiting trial in a Federal holding facility now.

 

[rescuemom]

There’s been a lot of conversation around the implausibility of someone leaving a body on their own front lawn. One theory of mine is that an argument ensued in the Albert home that led to fisticuffs and the dog jumped in. John fell and hit his head or he was whacked on the head from behind. His balance might have been off due to alcohol consumption. He may have been able to get up and stumble outside only to fall again near the flagpole never to get up again. I think JmcC may have seen him either when she was leaving or during one of her (frequent) glances out the window.
The group had a decision to make. Either call and try to get JOK some help and risk being charged with any number of crimes or play dumb; no one saw nuthin.

He may have been able to get up and stumble outside only to fall again near the flagpole never to get up again. I think JmcC may have seen him either when she was leaving or during one of her (frequent) glances out the window.

I would suggest that there would have been a blood trail or additional evidence of your suggestion but we'll never know because there was no investigation.

The group had a decision to make. Either call and try to get JOK some help and risk being charged with any number of crimes or play dumb; no one saw nuthin.

That decision has not gotten any of them much relief according to the trial or public opinion AND they let a man DIE. Who does that????

 

[rescuemom]

Just cause I'm wondering. WHO is the WEAKEST LINK in all of this?? Who can't live with their previous testimony? their culpability? WHO has spoken to an attorney to find out where they really stand in this case? WHO has talked to a 'trusted' someone? They all have their own lives, their futures, their family/childrens future to think about.

Has anyone approached the defense? asked for immunity if possible? Just wants this nightmare to be over and clear their conscience??

I can't imagine that kind of loyalty to the detriment of themselves and their own sanity. WHO wants to talk? For some reason, I feel it coming and is all JMO.

 

[rescuemom]

I think any assumptions would be the other way 'round. He's the powerful one.

Got it.

 

[Leilei]

Just cause I'm wondering. WHO is the WEAKEST LINK in all of this?? Who can't live with their previous testimony? their culpability? WHO has spoken to an attorney to find out where they really stand in this case? WHO has talked to a 'trusted' someone? They all have their own lives, their futures, their family/childrens future to think about.

Has anyone approached the defense? asked for immunity if possible? Just wants this nightmare to be over and clear their conscience??

I can't imagine that kind of loyalty to the detriment of themselves and their own sanity. WHO wants to talk? For some reason, I feel it coming and is all JMO.

My bet is Higgins.
We'll see.
IMO.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

Just cause I'm wondering. WHO is the WEAKEST LINK in all of this?? Who can't live with their previous testimony? their culpability? WHO has spoken to an attorney to find out where they really stand in this case? WHO has talked to a 'trusted' someone? They all have their own lives, their futures, their family/childrens future to think about.

Has anyone approached the defense? asked for immunity if possible? Just wants this nightmare to be over and clear their conscience??

I can't imagine that kind of loyalty to the detriment of themselves and their own sanity. WHO wants to talk? For some reason, I feel it coming and is all JMO.

I bet it’s Kerry. She has been thrown under the bus by Jenn this week. Also, maybe one of the younger group will crack.

 

[waldojabba]

Exactly. I’ve followed this case from day one and there’s such an odd allegiance to Karen, as if they know her personally and they k now for a fact there’s no way she could have done this. Nothing Jen McC said seems unusual to me at all. No one is perfect on the stand when asking to recall that much detail after so long.
The social media blitz has been very effective for Karen, to the point that her ride-or-die fans refuse to even consider that she might have hit him accidentally in anger while intoxicated, which is still a crime. There is not a lack of evidence in this case, but even if there was video of the incident, they would find some way to ignore or justify it. All of this is MOO of course, but there is zero evidence he set foot in that house.

There are many interesting things about the different viewpoints re this case. Obviously we all show up with our own life experiences and attendant personal biases before we even know the circumstances.

Guilty or Not Guilty ? I dont believe we will ever know beyond a reasonable doubt.
Either way I believe it was a terrible accident. I dont think anyone intended to kill John Okeefe that night - no matter what camp you are currently in.

All of us that have followed the case from day one, including those of us who are local, are well aware that there really was no true investigation that can be relied on.
Many of us came here to WS thinking "open and shut case" initially based upon information that we read in the media. I am sure you are aware it was reported early on that there was footage showing Karen actually hitting him with her SUV.
It's so easy to believe she hit him - lots of alcohol involved that day into night.

Then you dig a little deeper, see John's arm and its hard not to see those scratches and bites. And you start looking at what does exist for actual facts .And you listen to the witnesses - what they say on and off the stand and you look at their behavior. And you hear the clips of the defendant. There is so much to take in and process.
( I have not watched the documentaries or KR interviews and I do not follow TB)

My bingo moment was watching the ARCCA guys, who had no horse in the race and were totally NEUTRAL ( not a paid expert by the defense, they were paid by the FBI) - I watched them present science showing that John's injuries were not consistent with being hit with a vehicle. But honestly that shows my personal bias because I trust science - I dont find those guys shady at all, I hold their PHD education in very high regard. They are accident reconstructionists - thats what they do for a living, so I dont think I know better than them. And I do think they know better than Trooper Paul who took a course, but accident reconstruction is not his specialty.

I strongly lean twards Not Guilty not just bc pf ARCCA but bc of the many many things I have seen in trial 1 and 2 and written here including the testimony from Lucky the plow driver.

Nobody on this board knows what actually happened. So to have one side shaking a finger at the other side ( NG/G) seems a little presumptuous.

What I think we might all be able to agree on is that there is enough reasonable doubt here not to be able to convict the defendant.
Unless of course something is presented down the line that becomes an aha moment for G or NG, there is no way if I am a juror I could go for a G verdict.

I've written it here at WS many times but I'll say it again - At this point, I think bc of the emotion surrounding this case and the drama that swirls - I think we likely will end with a hung jury again.

My 2 cents - JMO

Just my thoughts.

 

[Soulmagent]

I totally agree! Karen has so many followers with rose coloured glasses on. It totally amazes me. Personally, I think Karen was a very insecure, jealous and abusive girlfriend. I have even thought that she might have hit John with a glass and broke it even before got out of the car. Could the cuts on his arms or his head be the result of a jealous insecure Karen? Just saying my thoughts…

<modsnip - unnecessary>

A lot of people have given really good reasons for not thinking she hit him with her car and declaring her not guilty in their own minds. Opinions differ but as they do I have to ask.

I have noticed a lot of the people who think she is hit John with a car at all ( some even believing that happened as she backed up at 25 miles per hour) use her being Jealous and insecure as something to be thought about and considered . Now also you think she beat him before he got out of the car too?
Could the cuts have been put there by physical assault ?
Is that what your asking ?
If it is ,then how can you say she is guilty?
Just looking to understand your personal insight on that is all .

 

[LittleSeaTree]

The question is why? What did John do to them to cause such disrespect and then to buddy up to his mother?

His mother would have to feel crushed, I’d sure think, when hearing how they referred to him in that way….yet she is seemingly ‘with’ them.

 

[Derph]

I agree with you.
KR was very drunk and trying to drive in a snowstorm. John was very drunk and trying to walk in a snowstorm. She accidentally hit him. A tragedy.
The biggest crime here is that the prosecutor over charged her. Murder implies intent which there absolutely was none that I can see. She should have been charged with whatever Massachusetts calls driving while intoxicated causing bodily harm or death.
KR and her attorneys should have been fighting to change the charges not spinning wild conspiracies. Some are saying people are lying to “save their own”, but KR et al are doing the same it seems to me.
What a mess. KR did not murder John, but she is responsible for his death.
Shame on the prosecutors and shame on the defense attorneys. That’s as I see it.

That’s just my opinion. I will now retire to my foxhole to await the incoming grenades that will be tossed my way.

Huh?


Who has direct links to the judge, the DA's office, the MSP and Canton PD that should have been recused from this trial?
Who lied to the FBI?
Who lied to the police?
Who deleted phone calls?
Who deleted internet searches?
Who deleted phone messages?
Who claimed that multiple phone calls were "butt dials"? Multiple people did this!! A minimum of 22 phone made by people not named Karen Read!
Whose stories have changed in multiple trials, depositions and Grand Jury hearings?
Who has changed their timeline multiple times?
Who tore up their basement and replaced it?
Who sold their home for well below market value shortly after the death of JOK?
Who had bruised knuckles after the death of JOK?
Whose arm was in a sling immediately after the death of JOK?
Who went to rehab immediately after JOK's death?
Who worked on their day off at the Canton PD and lied about being near KR's car?
Who destroyed their cell phones and memory cards just a day or 2 before and court ordered them to turn them over?
Who manipulated sally port video to make it look more favorable to their side of the story?
Who failed to secure the crime scene?
Who failed to keep detailed logs of who entered and left the crime scene while an active investigation was ongoing?
Who disclosed privileged information to people who weren't police?
Who got caught in multiple lies and perjured themselves? It wasn't just 1 or 2 people either.
Who picks and chooses what data they believe when it's beneficial to them, but then doesn't believe the data from the very same source when it's not beneficial to them?
Who got fired for their appalling behavior and conduct in this investigation?
Who got disciplined for their actions or lack of actions in this investigation? Hnt: It was multiple officers!
Who got rid of their dog immediately after JOK's death?
Who says Google is wrong?
Who claims Axiom is wrong?
Who claims Apple is wrong?
Who didn't go over to help KR revive JOK?
Who didn't go inside her sister's house to get help from her 1st responder husband?
Who referred to her "dear friend" as "some guy?"
Who else was drunk that night?
Who else was drunk driving that night?
Who searched "hos long to die in the cold" at 2:27am and then deleted it?

I can add more or if anyone wants to contribute to this list please feel free to do so. I have other things to do today. Do any single one of these points prove anything? No, no they do not. But when taken as a whole it raises A LOT of concern and at a minimum reasonable doubt.

There are reasons why certain investigation techniques and rules are in place. These rules are put in place so that prosecutors can use evidence against defendants to prove their guilt BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. Without them their cases fall apart and they fail to convict people of crimes they may have committed. How so many people can just accept the flawed evidence in this trial is beyond my comprehension. How so many people can look at a person like jen mcabe and believe she is being truthful despite her being caught in lie after lie after lie make me question their motives and if they have any interest whatsoever in finding the truth of what happened to JOK.

 

[waldojabba]

There’s been a lot of conversation around the implausibility of someone leaving a body on their own front lawn. One theory of mine is that an argument ensued in the Albert home that led to fisticuffs and the dog jumped in. John fell and hit his head or he was whacked on the head from behind. His balance might have been off due to alcohol consumption. He may have been able to get up and stumble outside only to fall again near the flagpole never to get up again. I think JmcC may have seen him either when she was leaving or during one of her (frequent) glances out the window.
The group had a decision to make. Either call and try to get JOK some help and risk being charged with any number of crimes or play dumb; no one saw nuthin.

"no one saw nuthin"
Yes I believe this is possible just the way you say- so many possible scenarios - all bc too much booze = bad judgement

 

[HarmonyE.]

Huh?


Who has direct links to the judge, the DA's office, the MSP and Canton PD that should have been recused from this trial?
Who lied to the FBI?
Who lied to the police?
Who deleted phone calls?
Who deleted internet searches?
Who deleted phone messages?
Who claimed that multiple phone calls were "butt dials"? Multiple people did this!! A minimum of 22 phone made by people not named Karen Read!
Whose stories have changed in multiple trials, depositions and Grand Jury hearings?
Who has changed their timeline multiple times?
Who tore up their basement and replaced it?
Who sold their home for well below market value shortly after the death of JOK?
Who had bruised knuckles after the death of JOK?
Whose arm was in a sling immediately after the death of JOK?
Who went to rehab immediately after JOK's death?
Who worked on their day off at the Canton PD and lied about being near KR's car?
Who destroyed their cell phones and memory cards just a day or 2 before and court ordered them to turn them over?
Who manipulated sally port video to make it look more favorable to their side of the story?
Who failed to secure the crime scene?
Who failed to keep detailed logs of who entered and left the crime scene while an active investigation was ongoing?
Who disclosed privileged information to people who weren't police?
Who got caught in multiple lies and perjured themselves? It wasn't just 1 or 2 people either.
Who picks and chooses what data they believe when it's beneficial to them, but then doesn't believe the data from the very same source when it's not beneficial to them?
Who got fired for their appalling behavior and conduct in this investigation?
Who got disciplined for their actions or lack of actions in this investigation? Hnt: It was multiple officers!
Who got rid of their dog immediately after JOK's death?
Who says Google is wrong?
Who claims Axiom is wrong?
Who claims Apple is wrong?
Who didn't go over to help KR revive JOK?
Who didn't go inside her sister's house to get help from her 1st responder husband?
Who referred to her "dear friend" as "some guy?"
Who else was drunk that night?
Who else was drunk driving that night?
Who searched "hos long to die in the cold" at 2:27am and then deleted it?

I can add more or if anyone wants to contribute to this list please feel free to do so. I have other things to do today. Do any single one of these points prove anything? No, no they do not. But when taken as a whole it raises A LOT of concern and at a minimum reasonable doubt.

There are reasons why certain investigation techniques and rules are in place. These rules are put in place so that prosecutors can use evidence against defendants to prove their guilt BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. Without them their cases fall apart and they fail to convict people of crimes they may have committed. How so many people can just accept the flawed evidence in this trial is beyond my comprehension. How so many people can look at a person like jen mcabe and believe she is being truthful despite her being caught in lie after lie after lie make me question their motives and if they have any interest whatsoever in finding the truth of what happened to JOK.

That you, AJ? This would be a great close!