MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #26 Retrial

[Soulmagent]

Hmm, I doubt it. The ME is here to testify in person and is available for cross, which IMO satisfies the confrontation clause. It definitely feels highly unusual though.

In a public trial Judged by her peers. This dont seem so public. This non publishing to the public.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Does anyone know of a specific example of when the Manner of Death was undetermined and a person was charged for murder?

Even in Proctors testimony in T1, he said this case was the first and only time he has ever investigated a homicide with an undetermined cause of death. In his 6/12/24 testimony.

 

[missy1974]

I’ve never seen a murder trial where autopsy photos aren’t shown during testimony. Judge Cannone says she’s putting the photos in an envelope for the jury to review during deliberations, if they even decide to look. That feels…bogus. Especially when we now know at least one juror from Trial 1 (the one that recently did the TV interview) said several members of the jury didn’t believe John’s injuries aligned with being hit by a car. Withholding that kind of evidence from open court testimony seems incredibly prejudicial, IMO.

I believe they are being shown.

Judge said that they do not have to look now, but that they should look during deliberations before deciding. They will be in an envelope for deliberations.

Coming back from break and judge just warned of graphic photos coming.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

I believe they are being shown.

Judge said that they do not have to look now, but that they should look during deliberations before deciding. They will be in an envelope for deliberations.

Coming back from break and judge just warned of graphic photos coming.

Ah, you’re right! Sorry, I must have misinterpreted that. I do think it’s weird that she said they don’t have to look. I would think it’s important that they DO look and be informed.

 

[ShadyLady]

“You can see some of the swelling and some of the bleeding over his eyelids,” Scordi-Bello said. “And that’s pretty much all I can see, as it’s a side view.”

“You can see some discoloration that’s bleeding under his eyelid,” she said. “There was bleeding, or hemorrhage as we call it, on the eyelids as well as swelling.”

She said she also observed “multiple abrasions” to his right arm, two bruises on the back of his right hand, a “faint scratch” on the back of his left hand, and a “small scrape” on the side of his right knee.

Brennan asked if she’d opined on a cause of those injuries.

“No, I did not.” “Well, I take that back, I’m sorry.” She said smaller bruising is sometimes caused by paramedics trying to access a blood vessel. “I did not measure their depth.”

She said she does not have a medical opinion on how the scratches got on his arm, how the bruising on his hand occurred, or how his right eye got a scrape.

She said she noted O’Keefe also had “rib fractures” on the front of his fourth and fifth ribs, on “both the right and the left, and it would be the part of the rib that is closer to the sternum.” “Very often, yes,. “I believe those rib fractures were due to [medical] resuscitation.”

‘It was a severe injury.’ Doctor testifies about trauma to John O’Keefe’s head in Karen Read retrial. Here’s how the day unfolded. - The Boston Globe

Dr. Irini Scordi-Bello said the laceration to O’Keefe’s right eyelid couldn’t be caused by falling backwards and hitting his head. She added that the injury was consistent with a punch.

www.bostonglobe.com

Still think the two round holes on his elbow look like punctures. She should have checked depth. IMO

 

[Tortoise]

I’ve never seen a murder trial where autopsy photos aren’t shown during testimony. Judge Cannone says she’s putting the photos in an envelope for the jury to review during deliberations, if they even decide to look. That feels…bogus. Especially when we now know at least one juror from Trial 1 (the one that recently did the TV interview) said several members of the jury didn’t believe John’s injuries aligned with being hit by a car. Withholding that kind of evidence from open court testimony seems incredibly prejudicial, IMO.

They are showing the photos on the screen in court.

The judge said (wtte) they don't have to look at them now, but she would in that case like them to look at the photos in the jury room during deliberations.

 

[mzmarymac]

I agree it’s very odd. This is a murder trial, I realize the family is sensitive to seeing them but the jurors have to see them.

DBM

 

[Soulmagent]

I believe they are being shown.

Judge said that they do not have to look now, but that they should look during deliberations before deciding. They will be in an envelope for deliberations.

Coming back from break and judge just warned of graphic photos coming.

The jury is being shown ,its the public part I am questioning the issue on .

 

[kuromiiiilove]

They are showing the photos on the screen in court.

The judge said (wtte) they don't have to look at them now, but she would in that case like them to look at the photos in the jury room during deliberations.

Yep, already said I misunderstood. Thanks!

 

[Leilei]

Still think the two round holes on his elbow look like punctures. She should have checked depth. IMO

I don't understand why she didn't.
Those are some pretty nasty wounds, so wouldn't it be SOP to measure depth?
IMO.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

I don't understand why she didn't.
Those are some pretty nasty wounds, so wouldn't it be SOP to measure depth?
IMO.

SOP doesn't really track around Canton. JMO

 

[kuromiiiilove]

The jury just heard that the manner of death was undetermined. Is that the first time they’ve heard this?

 

[missy1974]

Brennan is done with her.

Alessi up ...

 

[kuromiiiilove]

Alessi on cross with Dr. Scordi-Bello

 

[Bethlamb16]

The jury just heard that the manner of death was undetermined. Is that the first time they’ve heard this?

I feel like case closed right here. How can you convict someone without knowing how the person died?

 

[mzmarymac]

I feel like case closed right here. How can you convict someone without knowing how the person died?

Could you please stop asking such rational questions? s/

 

[jepop]

I don't understand why she didn't.
Those are some pretty nasty wounds, so wouldn't it be SOP to measure depth?
IMO.

Maybe it's protocol that stopped her, but if the ME can defer to an expert for more detailed study of the head wounds and what processes led to internal bleeding and stress fractures, why not the arm wounds too? Given she couldn't make a determination on what might have caused them, why couldn't she defer to an appropriate expert to explore them? A second opinion? Network of colleagues? What about a wound data base? Jmo

 

[Tortoise]

Dr Irini Scordi-Bello (regarding John's arm wounds):

..."Superficial means that the abrasion is on the superficial layers of the skin, usually the epidermis and sometimes the dermis, but there's no penetration of the skin.

Penetration would be measuring the depth, if there was actual penetration, I would have to measure how deep into the skin, for example when we assess stab wounds we have to measure the depth of the wound. In this particular case you can see that these are scrapes or scratches, and there's no exposed underlying fat or muscle, and therefore to answer your question, I measured their length and gave a range but I did not measure their depth."

 

[Angelwatch]

Does anyone know of a specific example of when the Manner of Death was undetermined and a person was charged for murder?

The Caylee Anthony murder. It was one of the factors the jury voted to acquit Casey Anthony.

 

[missy1974]

would you want a neurosurgeon to perform an autopsy... No...

Brennan has a neurosurgeon on his witness list I believe.

JMO