MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #28 Retrial

[missy1974]

So Dr. Wolf said he most likely was alive for hours after he had the head injury... does this change anyones views on the ... 'hos long to die in the cold' search?

As I was reading the posts catching up, my first thought was that search time.

 

[Maat99]

But wouldn't those who left 34 later have seen him laying there? Or Lucky?
IMO.

For me personally, I don’t actually think that JOK slipped and fell. It’s just that without being able to prove the car strike through JOKs injuries, there are plenty of other scenarios that could have happened and this CW witness just very helpfully imo pointed out one of them.

 

[Spider92]

But wouldn't those who left 34 later have seen him laying there? Or Lucky?
IMO.

Lucky is an objective witness but I’m thinking he had his eyes on the road in front of him - not someone’s lawn. And the partygoers were too busy making sure they didn’t slip in the snow in their drunken stupors - I’m not sure they would have noticed a purple elephant climbing the flagpole, let alone a body covered in snow.

 

[tara83]

Lucky is an objective witness but I’m thinking he had his eyes on the road in front of him - not someone’s lawn. And the partygoers were too busy making sure they didn’t slip in the snow in their drunken stupors - I’m not sure they would have noticed a purple elephant climbing the flagpole, let alone a body covered in snow.

More amazing to me was he is supposed to have laid there for hours but no frostbite.

 

[Maat99]

More amazing to me was he is supposed to have laid there for hours but no frostbite.

That and his body temp when he was discovered both convince me he was absolutely not out on that lawn all night

 

[missy1974]

I am looking forward to the Defense witnesses. We try to figure out their "theory" when they ask questions on cross, but I want to hear what they think happened because so far, not much makes sense and they have done nothing to convince me that he was hit by KR's car.
JMO

 

[Warwick7]

Once again, the prosecution seems to be stretching the standard of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Saying “he could have fallen onto flat ground” is pure speculation, not evidence. And it certainly doesn’t meet the burden of proof required in a criminal case. MOO

True.
But, that contradicts the doctor's testimony. To have fallen on flat ground, his chest or his arm would have to have been hit first. Then he would hit the ground.

But the doctor today made it clear the occipital injuries happened first.

 

[ShadyLady]

I'd like to say, not too long ago, there was this guy driving a car with (2) 2x4's sticking out the passenger window. He was probably going 25 to 35 mph. Those 2x4's hit my truck. The first point of impact was my trucks left rear tail light lens. It's a big lens, 2017 Ford F250 lens.

The impact did 16,000 dollars worth of damage to the entire driver side of my truck.

I personally picked up the red and clear plastic pieces that shattered.

It was no where close to 40 pieces.

In fact, I was able to duct tape the pieces back in place for the tail light to continue to be used for a few months until such time as the repairs were made.

I wonder how "they" managed to break that tail light into sooooo many pieces. Bet it took a few wacks...

 

[Odeto BJ]

So how did the taillight break into 40 pieces? From clipping a human body?

And how did (some of) the pieces end up in the immediate area of JOK's body some 15 feet from the curb? As well as shards embedded in his shirt?
The CW is headed the direction of: JOK was brushed by the Lexus, he fell backwards, hit his head, stumbled around (the steps on the I-Ph app), and Chloe showed up and left the marks all over his arm...either before and just after he fell a second time.

Problems abound:
-Above means the location of all of the pieces of tail light lens would be key to establishing an impact location as well as supporting that he did stumble around following the impact to his head; but local LE did nothing to establish specific location. Logically the distribution of lens material would be densest near the point of impact; and sparse a limited range from that point.
-The ground was not frozen hard, there is video that shows slushy snow under the top cover taken both the afternoon of the 29th and the 30th. The implication is, the ground was warmer than both the air and the snow. Afternoon of the 28th, the temperature was just below 40 deg. F.
-There was no debris in the head wound and you can be assured, he did not jump up and dance around 1 second after that blow, he stayed down and eventually rolled over if he started from flat on his back. His clothes, particularly the knees of his pants and the back of his hoodie, would show lots of mud and debris.
-He also bled from his mouth and vomited....Where did that happen?
-It did get cold and windy later that night but if all this happened before 1:00 AM he was lying on a grassy lawn that had very little snow cover when he fell. He was found under at least a few inches of snow....The ME indicated no frost bite; and the photos seem to confirm that, and his body was still at 81 deg core temperature. That does not seem to work out in terms of timing: the rest of the scenario would say his body was prone on the ground surface at just over 32 F while the snow and air temperatures fell from 28 to about 21 F. over the 5 hours plus.... he should have cooled faster than that.

JMO where and as applicable...

 

[ShadyLady]

And how did (some of) the pieces end up in the immediate area of JOK's body some 15 feet from the curb? As well as shards embedded in his shirt?
The CW is headed the direction of: JOK was brushed by the Lexus, he fell backwards, hit his head, stumbled around (the steps on the I-Ph app), and Chloe showed up and left the marks all over his arm...either before and just after he fell a second time.

Problems abound:
-Above means the location of all of the pieces of tail light lens would be key to establishing an impact location as well as supporting that he did stumble around following the impact to his head; but local LE did nothing to establish specific location. Logically the distribution of lens material would be densest near the point of impact; and sparse a limited range from that point.
-The ground was not frozen hard, there is video that shows slushy snow under the top cover taken both the afternoon of the 29th and the 30th. The implication is, the ground was warmer than both the air and the snow. Afternoon of the 28th, the temperature was just below 40 deg. F.
-There was no debris in the head wound and you can be assured, he did not jump up and dance around 1 second after that blow, he stayed down and eventually rolled over if he started from flat on his back. His clothes, particularly the knees of his pants and the back of his hoodie, would show lots of mud and debris.
-He also bled from his mouth and vomited....Where did that happen?
-It did get cold and windy later that night but if all this happened before 1:00 AM he was lying on a grassy lawn that had very little snow cover when he fell. He was found under at least a few inches of snow....The ME indicated no frost bite; and the photos seem to confirm that, and his body was still at 81 deg core temperature. That does not seem to work out in terms of timing: the rest of the scenario would say his body was prone on the ground surface at just over 32 F while the snow and air temperatures fell from 28 to about 21 F. over the 5 hours plus.... he should have cooled faster than that.

JMO where and as applicable...

And....he was not exactly dressed for the weather.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

True.
But, that contradicts the doctor's testimony. To have fallen on flat ground, his chest or his arm would have to have been hit first. Then he would hit the ground.

But the doctor today made it clear the occipital injuries happened first.

I wonder if when he said that, he was taking into account the arm injuries? It wasn’t clear to me. I wonder if Dr Wolf was saying ‘Of the head injuries, the occipital injuries happened first’ - completely excluding the arm wounds, because he is a neurosurgeon specifically?

However, I’m at work, so I totally could have missed him discussing John’s wounds in totality. MOO

 

[dlsully62]

@Tortoise - that was a good post this morning (thread 27) where you referenced 2 video interviews of KR saying such things as I was “looking to find him on the side of the road, I was expecting to find him” and (both quotes are about the 6:30 am trip to Fairview with JM and Kerry) “he’s roughly where I left him”.
Add to that her father’s comment that KR said, “Dad I think I struck something…..I remember backing up and hitting something”
at 1:45 here:

Not to mention the frantic chants of “Did I hit him?”
Why would she say these things? IMO, it’s because she tried to hit him and possibly did graze him on the knee. Why else would she keep talking about hitting him with her car if she really thought he was in the house?
I think parties on each side of the aisle are trying to hide something here. Clearly, IMO, LE was inept at best, and corrupt at worst, but I don’t think she’s 100% clean here.
That being said, there’s no way a jury can find her guilty - reasonable doubt appears in every aspect of this case.

You make valid points. I go back, though, to the amount of alcohol in her system. Far above the legal limit. That, in itself, would taint what she said. IMO.

 

[STLBlues]

-He also bled from his mouth and vomited....Where did that happen?

RS& BBM - Yes, where did that happen?

 

[Odeto BJ]

I wonder how "they" managed to break that tail light into sooooo many pieces. Bet it took a few wacks...

I am anticipating that ARRCA and their air cannon are going to demonstrate just that. They will have used various objects as projectiles at various speeds and will establish that the TL materials don't fracture like that even when somewhat cold. That it would take something with virtually no deformation, like a hammer, to make little shards from that lens. Also, at impact speed around 25 mph, a rigid object would have damaged the housing side of the TL as well.....
OMO and looking forward to it.

 

[Warwick7]

Did I misinterpret that Dr Wolf just said the occipital injuries happened first?

My understanding is he said the basal fracture happened first, and this transferred force forward through bone which caused the fractures at the front of the skull. The raccoon eyes then developed over hours from bleeding through these fractures.

IMO

@mrjitty you are right.

That is what I heard. As a matter of fact both of you are right. An occipital fracture can be a type of basal skull fracture.

Both of which are at the back of the head or even more important a break in one of the bones at the base of the scull.

I only know this because, when my daughter was 11 she had to have surgery for a epidural hematoma. She was hit in the back of the head. I'm familiar with occipital injuries and basal fractures.

That said....

It goes right back to his testimony.

Listen to him carefully...

He didn't say JO's arm was impacted first then hitting his head on the grass.

I don't even know if he realized it but, he made it clear, the back of the head injury was first. Other injuries were secondary.

 

[kuromiiiilove]

I have a feeling they are trying to discard that. They want him to have stumbled around after dog attack arm swipe by tail light then have him hit his head falling onto the grass backwards. The other Dr Wolfe will show the impossible physics of that when looking at the tail light damage and Dr Rentschler will show the impossibility of JO's arm injuries coming from such a 'gentle' side swipe. Then Mr ( Dr?) Wing and Dr Russell will show the injuries are from impact with the claws and teeth of a large dog. Jmo.

I love how they’ve gone from ‘Karen hit John at 24mph and incapacitated him immediately’ to ‘Karen brushed John’s knee, triggering a butterfly effect in which he ended up hitting his head on the flat ground and died’. Just getting more ridiculous day by day, IMO

 

[Odeto BJ]

A little off topic and something of an Urban Legend....

June 1944: The chicken cannon - The Engineer

The Engineer reported on the development of the world's very first 'chicken cannon', designed by the Westinghouse Electric and Manufacturing company

www.theengineer.co.uk

 

[Tricia]

Please continue the discussion HERE.