MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #30 Retrial

[AppleTreeGreen]

And his comparison to a pen hitting his hand or how his weight would be distributed if he fell back on a mattress. What an embarrassment.

I was also pretty surprised by how agitated he became when Alessi asked him about showing the data for the null hypothesis and other alternatives he tested. Scientists are used to having their work peer reviewed, questioned and even having to defend it as they complete their graduate studies and compete for grants, funding and opportunities to have their work published. It wasn’t personal and it was fair for Alessi or anybody wanting to review or replicate Welsher’s work or check the reliability of his results and methods the methods he used to rule out other possibilities or the validity of his findings. It is just part of the scientific process.

Also Dr. Welsher repeatedly emphasized that JOK was struck by a 6000 pound car which then led to his arm getting caught in the taillight and his body being pushed forward by KR’s car. This did make me wonder did the back of JOK’s legs have abrasions from hitting the bumper? Did his sneakers have scuff marks on the bottom? If his theory is correct how weren’t more fibers or blood found on the broken pieces or the ones still attached to KR’s car? Did any of the dents or damage found on her vehicle match the contour of JOK’s body parts, like his hips or such? If his body did twist away and land on its back after his arm got caught, shouldn’t his hands and arms be far more cut up as it scraped and moved against the broken pieces of glass from the taillight and from sheer the force of when he got struck and then again when his body pull twisted away from the car as it still moved forward? If his arm was the cause of him being knocked forward by the car, how did his body manage not to land closer to the curb with his limbs at risk of getting run over by the approaching tires? Did the back of his legs, heels, shoulders and sacrums also suffer from marks or abrasions from the very same force that caused his skull fracture upon falling from the car? Even though JOK’s body twisted in the opposite from the vehicle as the car propelled forward, according to Welsher, wasn’t it still possible his left arm, hands or leg would have hit KR’s vehicle considering just how close they were and the fact that JOK ended up landing on his back?

How did his phone manage to stay in his back pocket just long enough for JOK’s body twisted in the air like Welsher said it did and then only eject itself and still somehow land beneath beneath his shoulder?

Brennan clarified with Dr. Welsher that the patient in the case he used in the example did not suffer any fractures to the arms or legs but clearly that poor victim suffered a terrible trauma as shown by the heavily bleeding and gaping wounds to his arms, ribs and heads after being tragically side swiped by an oncoming vehicle going 25 mph. If they want to use that as a comparison for JOK I can’t help but wonder than can also be asked then why are JOK’s and this victims wounds so different or are Brennan and Welsher saying they are not and in that case how did no one from the Albert home notice on the way home? How could no one notice that much blood if sadly JOK head wound bled just as much as that poor victim in the photo?

Just my own questions/curiosuty or speculation after today’s testimony

 

[sunshineray]

I think a lot of us are here for that reason, we like to watch the testimony ourselves. However, you keep referencing the documentary/interviews, and the trial so far has had some clips from them, but a very small percentage of the actual shows. I have not watched them, so can't comment on them, I don't even know how long the shows are.

I am here watching the trial, and trying to base my opinions on what is being presented to the jury. I usually skip over any posts related to the interviews because unless the whole show is admitted as evidence, right now, I just don't care about them lol

Am I the only one that has not watched these shows? LOL

Yes, I did watch the whole documentary. It was an eye-opener, MO. And since KR will mostly likely not get on the stand, it was enlightening to listen to, in her words, "her testimony".

 

[Leilei]

That doesn't make sense to the description of JO when they found him, does it?

It actually does. His wound was on the back of his head.
So those clips are still cherry-picking.
IMO.

 

[sunshineray]

.. a man in the snow... not omg he looks beat up or is bleeding, etc. Here we go: the infamous a man in the snow line. Not her friend. Not John Okeefe but a man (a stranger in the snow) Just like her husband's description: " tell them that the man never came into the house." Not John, not our friend John but that man.Two impersonal statements from one lovely couple(Not!)that to me, have third party guilt written all over them. Mo

Just descriptive, "a man" "the man". I'm sure not only KR was in shock at the situation. MO

 

[Leilei]

The defense could certainly play extended clips to provide whatever context they think would be helpful. If they are choosing not to, it's their decision.

In the trial where I previously mentioned I was a juror, the prosecution presented clipped text messages that one could believe were talking about a certain thing... when the defense presented extended context of the before/after along with unconnected additional messages that showed use of the same phrasing... it was far less incriminating.

The defense has not begun their arguments.
The CW just rested earlier today.
So, no, we don't know if they've chosen to play clips or not.
Even your own experience shows that both parties took their turns to present their cases, when it was time to do so.
So, IMO, your statement is jumping the gun.
Give the defense a chance to actually present.
IMO.

 

[sunshineray]

It actually does. His wound was on the back of his head.
So those clips are still cherry-picking.
IMO.

He had other wounds and an injury from the inside of his skull that changed his face.

 

[missy1974]

If Welcher had been called to testify on behalf of a defendant, any defendant, I guarantee that all of us would be talking only about how nuts he was, not how wonderfully qualified he is.

Talking about cars flying off into space, banging the side of the witness box while answering a question, covering himself in blue grease paint and dressing in the victim's exact clothes for his experiment. Utter clown behavior!

It'll never fail to amaze me how people give massive benefit of the doubt to prosecution expert witnesses rather than judging if they've actually proven anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

MOO

BBM I totally agree.

This is like the reverse UNO card being played on us all... IMO the defense has the more credible and experienced witnesses (from what I can see so far), which happens to include some of the CW witnesses, like the ME, even Ryan Nagel. Everything about this trial just seems backwards IMO

I was actually hestitant to log into WS's a few weeks back because I thought for sure I was going to be the only one on here questioning the CW, which would not be the first time, but I don't have the energy for it nowadays! I was pleasantly surprised though when I did break down and come look LOL

 

[sunshineray]

Fairly certain that the bolded statement was in reference to when JOK was found, not when she was pulling away.
Cherry-picking in that article, bigtime.
Perhaps you can provide a link that shows that she said what you are alleging?
TYIA.
IMO.

I did link it previously. This is where it played in my neck of the woods but it may be on other channels.

Watch A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read | HBO Max

Watch A Body in the Snow: The Trial of Karen Read on HBO Max. Plans start at $9.99/month. This exclusive behind-the-scenes docuseries tells the story of Karen Read, who is on trial for the murder of her boyfriend, Boston police officer John O'Keefe. Read maintains her innocence and argues she's...

www.max.com

 

[missy1974]

No ,I was trying just to watch the trial .
I have clicked on most links posted on this thread to keep up. The math is keeping me up at night. I just have this haunting feeling someone counted wrong somewhere.
Missy1974 dont skip out on Mircodots. short quick to the point minutes long video's worth it.

Yes! Thank you, great videos, and awesome if anyone prefers the visual for different theories. THIS is what I had expected from Welcher, but I guess we can't have nice things... lol

I wonder if the defense will be able to show a good reenactment of what the CW is trying to say happened?

 

[tara83]

He had other wounds and an injury from the inside of his skull that changed his face.

Other injuries being the strange marks on his arm and little knee bruise?

 

[Izzylizzy]

It is clear to me that Dr. Welcher began his analysis with the Commonwealth’s theory already in mind and worked backward to fit the evidence to that narrative under the guise of science. Alessi likely won’t get him to admit to the shortcomings of his experiments on cross, but he’s doing an excellent job revealing the internal inconsistencies in Welcher’s conclusions. I think Welcher is trying to almost overwhelm the jury with so much technical jargon and ambiguity that little of it sticks, then returning on re-direct with a tidy summary designed to reinforce the Commonwealth’s core claims.

BBM:
$325,000 + will do that to ya.

 

[missy1974]

I was also pretty surprised by how agitated he became when Alessi asked him about showing the data for the null hypothesis and other alternatives he tested. Scientists are used to having their work peer reviewed, questioned and even having to defend it as they complete their graduate studies and compete for grants, funding and opportunities to have their work published. It wasn’t personal and it was fair for Alessi or anybody wanting to review or replicate Welsher’s work or check the reliability of his results and methods the methods he used to rule out other possibilities or the validity of his findings. It is just part of the scientific process.

RSBM

He didn't do any other tests because if it didn't show what he or the CW wanted, he would have to disclose and defend that in court. Oh and didn't want to damage the Lexus they bought. That is according to his own testimony.

 

[Elliot_Alderson]

I actually found the docuseries to support my decision of NG. I found her refreshingly honest, even when some of her statements wouldn’t necessarily benefit her. All of her wondering if she hit him, clipped him, etc., point to someone running through scenarios in their head and not admissions of guilt. Karen was surprised when she woke up and didn’t find OJO home. She knew he wouldn’t leave his niece home alone, which is why she didn’t jump to the conclusion that he slept at the Albert’s. IMO.

Karen freaking out because JOK had never not come home when the kids were there is something I try to point out anytime I see people suggesting her behavior was suspicious or that she should have just assumed he was sleeping at a house he didn’t even know how to get to. JMO

 

[Tortoise]

RSBM

He didn't do any other tests because if it didn't show what he or the CW wanted, he would have to disclose and defend that in court. Oh and didn't want to damage the Lexus they bought. That is according to his own testimony.

Alessi didn't dispute with Welcher that an arm would break the taillight if the car was travelling at over 8 mph.

 

[missy1974]

I may have done the mistake of watching Dr. Wolfe (ARCCA) from last years trial on the longggg weekend...

Dude was more than happy to explain what he did, how he did it, the cannon they built for the glass, he was almost excited to talk about what they did and how they did it. And I am pretty sure he can "math" in his head without a calculator lol

I did not get that feeling from Welcher at all. All experts know they are going to get push back from the opposing party, he handled it poorly IMO If you trust your ability or your opinion, it's not hard to defend it.

 

[Leilei]

He had other wounds and an injury from the inside of his skull that changed his face.

Please elaborate, because none of the other wounds were visible at the time, except for the one above his eye, IIRC.
IMO.

 

[missy1974]

Alessi didn't dispute with Welcher that an arm would break the taillight if the car was travelling at over 8 mph.

No, what Alessi did was have him try to do the "math" because he didn't "show his math". Alessi very painfully had Welcher figure out how much force to break various bones in his hand and/or arm, and asked him about the literature.

I suspect we will find out more from ARCCA.

all JMO

 

[Wishbone]

Fairly certain that the bolded statement was in reference to when JOK was found, not when she was pulling away.
Cherry-picking in that article, bigtime.
Perhaps you can provide a link that shows that she said what you are alleging?
TYIA.
IMO.

It was when he was found that morning. She didn't see him when driving away and never said anything like that. JMOO

 

[Leilei]

It was when he was found that morning. She didn't see him when driving away and never said anything like that. JMOO

Exactly.
Which is why I'm asking OP for a link to the allegation that she said that as she was driving away.
Zero evidence of that happening and pure speculation, IMO.

 

[cocomod]

She is thinking of possibilities, and ‘seeing’ possibilities in her ‘minds eye’, if you will. Pretty common figure of speech.

We can take anything out of context, like Welcher saying he felt like he was ‘talking the jury to death’, in a murder trial. But it doesn’t mean it’s relevant or meaningful. MOO.

Exactly! Plus, both sides admit that she had been drinking that night. I will concede. She was likely very drunk that night. Being very drunk, she likely does not remember what happened and was trying to piece together what could have happened.

Bottom line, her words in this instance are not evidence - especially given that the circumstances and the totality of the actual evidence does not point to her guilt. His body is the biggest piece of evidence in this trial! His body does not say he was hit by a vehicle.