MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #30 Retrial

[waldojabba]

Exactly! Plus, both sides admit that she had been drinking that night. I will concede. She was likely very drunk that night. Being very drunk, she likely does not remember what happened and was trying to piece together what could have happened.

Bottom line, her words in this instance are not evidence - especially given that the circumstances and the totality of the actual evidence does not point to her guilt. His body is the biggest piece of evidence in this trial! His body does not say he was hit by a vehicle.

BBM above - thank you @cocomod
"His body is the biggest piece of evidence in this trial! His body does not say he was hit by a vehicle."
Quite simply this.
Everything else is a distraction
JMO

 

[acutename]

I was also pretty surprised by how agitated he became when Alessi asked him about showing the data for the null hypothesis and other alternatives he tested. Scientists are used to having their work peer reviewed, questioned and even having to defend it as they complete their graduate studies and compete for grants, funding and opportunities to have their work published. It wasn’t personal and it was fair for Alessi or anybody wanting to review or replicate Welsher’s work or check the reliability of his results and methods the methods he used to rule out other possibilities or the validity of his findings. It is just part of the scientific process.

Also Dr. Welsher repeatedly emphasized that JOK was struck by a 6000 pound car which then led to his arm getting caught in the taillight and his body being pushed forward by KR’s car. This did make me wonder did the back of JOK’s legs have abrasions from hitting the bumper? Did his sneakers have scuff marks on the bottom? If his theory is correct how weren’t more fibers or blood found on the broken pieces or the ones still attached to KR’s car? Did any of the dents or damage found on her vehicle match the contour of JOK’s body parts, like his hips or such? If his body did twist away and land on its back after his arm got caught, shouldn’t his hands and arms be far more cut up as it scraped and moved against the broken pieces of glass from the taillight and from sheer the force of when he got struck and then again when his body pull twisted away from the car as it still moved forward? If his arm was the cause of him being knocked forward by the car, how did his body manage not to land closer to the curb with his limbs at risk of getting run over by the approaching tires? Did the back of his legs, heels, shoulders and sacrums also suffer from marks or abrasions from the very same force that caused his skull fracture upon falling from the car? Even though JOK’s body twisted in the opposite from the vehicle as the car propelled forward, according to Welsher, wasn’t it still possible his left arm, hands or leg would have hit KR’s vehicle considering just how close they were and the fact that JOK ended up landing on his back?

How did his phone manage to stay in his back pocket just long enough for JOK’s body twisted in the air like Welsher said it did and then only eject itself and still somehow land beneath beneath his shoulder?

Brennan clarified with Dr. Welsher that the patient in the case he used in the example did not suffer any fractures to the arms or legs but clearly that poor victim suffered a terrible trauma as shown by the heavily bleeding and gaping wounds to his arms, ribs and heads after being tragically side swiped by an oncoming vehicle going 25 mph. If they want to use that as a comparison for JOK I can’t help but wonder than can also be asked then why are JOK’s and this victims wounds so different or are Brennan and Welsher saying they are not and in that case how did no one from the Albert home notice on the way home? How could no one notice that much blood if sadly JOK head wound bled just as much as that poor victim in the photo?

Just my own questions/curiosuty or speculation after today’s testimony

I thought that the Lexus taillight was polycarbonate- fairly impact resistant. Has that been discussed? And how does JO lose a shoe?

 

[waldojabba]

<modsnip>He's primarily not there to argue with them (my claim vs yours). Instead, he wants the guy to commit to specifics, and he focuses on places where the vagueness and assumptions and the transparent stupidity lingers. Alessi was nailing him down to commit to this or that (If you listen, he's asking "Is that your testimony?" and working to get that question answered, in this point or that.).

When W said that "an arm would break the taillight if the car was traveling at over 8 mph", with no actual tests, and something that doesn't pass the sniff test for anyone who has ever jogged past a car, Alessi doesn't want to mess with that. Just mark it. The ball is positioned perfectly on the tee.

Let the cw rest its case, which locks in their experts' claims. THEN bring the def experts to knock the stuffing out of the stupidity on display by this one claiming to be an expert, claiming to have integrity, claiming he's not making stuff up to pad a weak-to-nonexistent case.

The same was true with the 1162 nonsense that you and others crowed about, when def didn't challenge it in the moment. They left his nonsense right there on the tee, and then let the later cw witness be dismissive of the idea (which happened) and then left the ball on the tee again for the def experts to smash to smithereens. They're coming.

Why would Alessi challenge it and push for something better? For the def, that testimony was PERFECT.

Great post thanks @SteveS
Thats why I love watching these lawyers on the D -
JMO

 

[Hazelnutty]

Those two people are so cold. Heartless.

I agree. The owners of the home are also cold hearted. I'm shocked at their obvious disregard for JoK.

 

[Hazelnutty]

Good one. Had forgotten that he said the Lexus flying into space "was a possibility"!!

I almost got whiplash with that statement. I'd wondered if I was hearing him correctly. Have mercy.

 

[waldojabba]

I thought that the Lexus taillight was polycarbonate- fairly impact resistant. Has that been discussed? And how does JO lose a shoe?

I also thought the tail light was polycarbonate - not prone to breaking/shattering into a 47 pieces.
I suspect we will hear about this from ARCCA and we will know the scoop on the actual material and how it reacts to impacts of varying degree.
I confess to not thoroughly listening to Brennan and Welcher go thru his power point - the two of them together slithering - constitute a triggering event for me - so I don't know if Welcher addressed that
JMO

 

[Spider92]

Interesting thought but how does one explain the arm injuries and other minor injuries? It's a travesty this death was not thoroughly investigated and handled in a professional manner. That alone is enough to make me doubt why this case was ever brought to trial. JMOO

I agree - an inexcusably poor investigation and IMO, the DA was foolish to bring this case the first time and unbelievable dense to bring it again - for several reasons.
The arm injuries are puzzling. I think (1) a dog (maybe Chloe) or coyote attacked JOK when (or after) he stumbled on to the lawn or (2) JOK stumbled into the house/basement/backyard where Chloe attacked him.
I think there’s also a remote possibility that he was somehow cut up with the cocktail glass…though I put that probability just ahead of the scenario where the SUV shot into outer space.

 

[OldCop]

BBM

What 'constant mumbo jumbo' are you referring to?

Here would be one example:

‘Let’s Get Back To Reality’: Expert Suggests Karen Read’s Lexus Could Launch to Space - NewsBreak

The Commonwealth's crash reconstructionist, Judson Welcher, said that Karen Read's Lexus could have 'shot off into space,' though it was highly unlikely. (

www.newsbreak.com

 

[lohrtabitha]

Yes, I did watch the whole documentary. It was an eye-opener, MO. And since KR will mostly likely not get on the stand, it was enlightening to listen to, in her words, "her testimony".

I watched the documentary and you know what it was? Entertainment. This is how the TV business makes the big bucks. It's preys on persuasion techniques which can mislead viewers in their thought processes. So many of the important facts, evidence, the extensive questioning with the full witness testimonies are not seen in this 3 part doc. The producers of the doc used entertaining clips of what it could sell to an audience. It doesn't represent the whole picture and never will because it was solely made to make money. That is how the Entertainment business works. Moo

 

[Derph]

Karen freaking out because JOK had never not come home when the kids were there is something I try to point out anytime I see people suggesting her behavior was suspicious or that she should have just assumed he was sleeping at a house he didn’t even know how to get to. JMO

What's more questionable is that absolutely NONE of his dear, close friends ever texted, called or left messages ( at least the ones that weren't deleted) asking anyone at the party at 34 Fairview that night WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED????!!!! No one asked for any details! No one asked another if they saw anything! No one inquired if they heard anything? There was absolutely no chatter or questions, or concern about anything!! Well except for all the phone calls that no one made and blamed on butt dials. WHO THE HELL DOES THAT????!!!!!!

If you had just found out that a " very close friend of yours that you had been partying with just hours before was found dead on the lawn of the place you had been at, again just hours before, would you not be chomping at the bit to find out any information about it????? Yet no one asked a single question. No one was shocked or surprised! No one was freaking the hell out? No one said anything except to " tell then the guy never came in the house!" No one inside the house could be bothered to get off their hungover buttz and go outside to see exactly WTH was going on on their lawn??? Are you freaking kidding me!! Karen was the only one freaking out and trying to find answers.

 

[Derph]

Karen freaking out because JOK had never not come home when the kids were there is something I try to point out anytime I see people suggesting her behavior was suspicious or that she should have just assumed he was sleeping at a house he didn’t even know how to get to. JMO

What's more questionable is that absolutely NONE of his dear, close friends ever texted, called or left messages ( at least the ones that weren't deleted) asking anyone at the party at 34 Fairview that night WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED????!!!! No one asked for any details! No one asked another if they saw anything! No one inquired if they heard anything? There was absolutely no chatter or questions, or concern about anything!! Well except for all the phone calls that no one made and blamed on butt dials. WHO THE HELL DOES THAT????!!!!!!

If you had just found out that a " very close friend of yours that you had been partying with just hours before was found dead on the lawn of the place you had been at, again just hours before, would you not be chomping at the bit to find out any information about it????? Yet no one asked a single question. No one was shocked or surprised! No one was freaking the hell out? No one said anything except to " tell then the guy never came in the house!" No one inside the house could be bothered to get off their hungover buttz and go outside to see exactly WTH was going on on their lawn??? Are you freaking kidding me!! Karen was the only one freaking out and trying to find answers.

 

[SteveS]

Since I’m reasonable and rational I’m open to the possibility that she tried to hit him and (barely, if at all) missed him. Then he dodged the vehicle and stumbled on to the lawn. I’m not sure if that’s a crime, but might be.

Let me finish your idea for you, as it's missing a very key explanation of what happened next.

You have said -- KR's car did not hit him (or barely touched him). He then dodged a bit, or otherwise got off balance, and fell down on the lawn and died from falling on snow and grass.

And then?

Here's what I have to add -- Well naturally, as KR drove away, or even later sometime, the various pieces of her tail light jumped off of her car wherever it was, and miraculously went to the lawn around where JOK stumbled to. Maybe some of it flew off into outer space for awhile, because as the expert testified, anything is possible, and then days or weeks later, it came back and landed there. It even brought some friends along, pieces of tail light from another car or cars.

How am I doing? (Our story has as much actual proof as the cw's, right?)

 

[acutename]

Yes, his mortal wound was on the back of his head. A visual to a person who has never seen such a thing or the depth and damage inside his brain, spine, may also think it was a gash. A simple gash. No stabbings, no gunshots.. obvious signs of mortally being wounded. The damage was not visible at that time. I sounds from initial reports, he was just laying there on his back, with some blood drops. Seeing the blood she may of had the initial response of being in a fist fight, not killed during it. IMO

The gash in the back of the head is huge- like from an axe or something. Is the CW saying that was just from the ground?

 

[keek]

The gash in the back of the head is huge- like from an axe or something. Is the CW saying that was just from the ground?

Yes!

 

[Spider92]

Let me finish your idea for you, as it's missing a very key explanation of what happened next.

You have said -- KR's car did not hit him (or barely touched him). He then dodged a bit, or otherwise got off balance, and fell down on the lawn and died from falling on snow and grass.

And then?

Here's what I have to add -- Well naturally, as KR drove away, or even later sometime, the various pieces of her tail light jumped off of her car wherever it was, and miraculously went to the lawn around where JOK stumbled to. Maybe some of it flew off into outer space for awhile, because as the expert testified, anything is possible, and then days or weeks later, it came back and landed there. It even brought some friends along, pieces of tail light from another car or cars.

How am I doing? (Our story has as much actual proof as the cw's, right?)

How did the broken pieces of taillight get there? I think LE planted them. They badly wanted KR to take the fall for this. Maybe because they hated her. Maybe because Chloe was involved as I said. I think it’s unlikely that the taillight broke into 47 pieces upon impact with JOK’s arm.

 

[acutename]

For those of you that feel that the CWs theory that JOK was sideswiped by the Lexus driven by KR, is it definitive? Has the defense (or will they in their own case) be able to provide a reasonable alternative explanation? I'm not saying a car fell from the moon. I'm saying, could a reasonable person feel that they might just be some other reasonable explanation for what happened?

Someone else ran him over (lots of drunk drivers that night)
He was drunk and fell over and hit his head and maybe some animal was messing with him in the middle of the night, perhaps thinking they were trying to help him?
Someone, perhaps even someone not at the party, stopped him before he went in and pulled him off to the side and jumped him?
Or maybe some other unknown theory. Maybe JOK was so drunk, he wandered down the street instead of going in the house, maybe the girl he knew or used to date, and met some unfortunate end there, i.e. a jealous husband or boyfriend.
Or maybe, some form of what the defense is suggesting, i.e. a cover up of an incident in the home

The reason I ask is that the CW theory is far from concrete. There are so many convolutions and pseudoscience involved that there is no definitive 100% BARD that he was hit in the way the CW contends. Too many things just don't add up. No DNA on the plastic pieces. What happened to the white Jeep? Why didn't anyone hear or see the collision or JOK lying on the ground? Why no broken bones? Why wasn't there more blood?

My point is no matter how much you think she may have done it, there is no way a jury is going to believe that it happened the way the CW says it happened. And the whole charge of 2nd degree murder is beyond ridiculous.

JMO

I do not understand how he got a big even half-moon shaped gash as the back of his skull.

 

[LaineyJ]

Checking in late today. I see the CW has rested.

Just to be clear: the CW did not prove anything other than the fact that JOK died. That’s it. No proof of how or even when exactly.

What an extreme waste of money for Massachusetts. What a waste of money for KR to have to defend herself AGAIN against charges the CW can’t even prove.

This, in my opinion, was way worse than the CW case in t1. And that trial was bad enough.

 

[Forest_Wood]

I don't find her suspicions unfounded.They had a relationship with alcohol at the center of it and good ole JO was the bachelor all the soccer moms seemed to love to be around.To the point that she found a drunk JO in the arms of another woman just a month before. It may have been an innocent encounter but the thought was planted anyway and we don't know what other situations may have led to trust issues. They had jealousy issues on both sides and her reaction makes sense until she realizes that he most likely wouldn't forget about the kids and not come home. Then she began to really worry and wonder what could have happened to him. JMOO

That is a great summary and I agree 100%. They both had trust issues with each other and jealousy too. John sure had a lot of married, middle aged women wooing over him it seemed, yet he was still a single bachelor even in his mid forties despite having a woman who clearly loved him who he refused to commit to. He seemed to gain many favors from these women for childcare. I find it interesting that JOK was so praised by his friends for taking on parenting of his niece and nephew, which is admirable, sure, and at the same time, wonder how he managed to parent at all with the drinking he was consumed with. It would be a strange environment for children to grow up in. There's a lot here that doesn't make sense. I just see a bunch of middle age people with no real direction in life. Everything revolved around drinking and partying. And the result was tragedy in the end that they've all been dealing with for over 3 years now.
MOO

 

[AppleTreeGreen]

I thought that the Lexus taillight was polycarbonate- fairly impact resistant. Has that been discussed? And how does JO lose a shoe?

Yes, you are correct that the Lexus taillight was made from impact resistant polycarbonate.

However, Welsher testified that based on his studies it is possible after being struck by KR’s vehicle going in reverse between 20-25 mph JOK’s right arm would have been cable of breaking the taillight, thereby causing the horizontal lacerations on seen on his autopsy photos. Alessi made sure to question him more thoroughly about the basis of these findings or determination.

I also agree with Alessi that lacerations from the taillight should have been vertical in nature based on the shape and structure of the light and Welcher’s proposed scenario. Also, how did skin or hair not get scraped off by the silver plate beneath if JOK’s arm was struck by the taillight in accordance to Welcher’s theory? Shouldn’t his elbow have more bruising?

Expert highlights analysis, experiments involving Karen Read's SUV

Investigators testify about Karen Read's car, crime scene

Jurors heard Monday about the crime scene search and forensic analysis of an SUV belonging to Karen Read.

www.wcvb.com

 

[Warwick7]

[Mod snip]. He's primarily not there to argue with them (my claim vs yours). Instead, he wants the guy to commit to specifics, and he focuses on places where the vagueness and assumptions and the transparent stupidity lingers. Alessi was nailing him down to commit to this or that (If you listen, he's asking "Is that your testimony?" and working to get that question answered, in this point or that.).

When W said that "an arm would break the taillight if the car was traveling at over 8 mph", with no actual tests, and something that doesn't pass the sniff test for anyone who has ever jogged past a car, Alessi doesn't want to mess with that. Just mark it. The ball is positioned perfectly on the tee.

Let the cw rest its case, which locks in their experts' claims. THEN bring the def experts to knock the stuffing out of the stupidity on display by this one claiming to be an expert, claiming to have integrity, claiming he's not making stuff up to pad a weak-to-nonexistent case.

The same was true with the 1162 nonsense that you and others crowed about, when def didn't challenge it in the moment. They left his nonsense right there on the tee, and then let the later cw witness be dismissive of the idea (which happened) and then left the ball on the tee again for the def experts to smash to smithereens. They're coming.

Why would Alessi challenge it and push for something better? For the def, that testimony was PERFECT.

omg! Bam!!!!!!!!