MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #31 Retrial

[Wishbone]

Why would I need to see the both trials to know that those facial injuries and arm injuries are not from dog bites or a fight.<modsnip> My background is in biology and physical sciences. That is why this trial has come to my radar- it has a lot of evidence that is biophysical in nature. And I have no pony in the race here at all, I’ve not made a conclusion that I need to defend, I’m trying to work through the evidence. Evidence in science and what is presented in a trial are not the same thing.

We do know what the ME says depends on the questions asked. You can’t conclude based on questions that were not asked. What she doesn’t say is that the wounds look like dog bites/ scratches or that he suffered blunt force trauma of the face from a fist fight.

The ME would be the testimony that is based in science, we will see what the defense does here to make the dog bites more solid. All the defense has to do is add doubt- and they have, but that doesn't’ mean he was bitten by a dog.

IMO

There is no evidence biophysical in nature or otherwise that proves JO was hit by the Lexus and his injuries caused by such. Even $400.000 couldn't elicit that determination. And the ME testimony was based on science and that's why the manner of death is undetermined. JMOO

 

[tara83]

I suppose there isn’t evidence of being struck by a car without the taillight evidence. He could have simply tripped and fallen down.
Or- she bumped him and he tripped and fell down. I suppose without evidence she would have to have known and confess.

Does it follow then that he went into the house and was beat up? No, there is no evidence for that scenario any more than there is for the taillight breaking on his arm.
The cases on both side are pretty flimsy and lacking in solid evidence either way, which will result in plenty of reasonable doubt.

I think once this is over we won’t be any closer to finding out what actually happened, no matter the verdict.

IMO

Sadly since LE never actually went into the house to check anything we will never know. My stepbrother is a cop and said he's never heard of a case where a body was found on a persona's property and they didn't bother to check with people inside the house.

 

[Wishbone]

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped>

It is still possible and plausible that KR clipped him with her car and he fell back and hit his head and was incapacitated and died as a result. But, there is enough mud in the water to provide reasonable doubt- so I expect she will likely be found Not Guilty. Does this mean she is innocent- No. Does her clipping him mean she intended to kill him, or knew she hurt him and left the scene? No. The timeline alone is hard to dispute- she was either there or nearby when no one else was around. If we add alcohol, emotion, and the weather- accidents happen. So it is no stretch.

Why is this an issue? Because she may have done it and because the DA chose to up the charges she had no choice but to defend herself in this way. The DA had to up the charges to bluff- because it looks like LE tampered with evidence.
No one was willing to take a deep breath and calm the crap down, do honest good police work, and honest good charges from the DA. Common sense is absent- so now it is a battle with flimsy crappy evidence being presented on both sides out of desperation for trial purposes.

IMO

The possibilities are endless, and the cw can not prove that the Lexus hit JO.

The Commonwealth's crash reconstructionist, Judson Welcher, said that Karen Read's Lexus could have 'shot off into space,' though it was highly unlikely. (5/28/25)

'Let's Get Back To Reality': Expert Suggests Karen Read's Lexus Could Launch to Space

The Commonwealth's crash reconstructionist, Judson Welcher, said that Karen Read's Lexus could have 'shot off into space.'

www.courttv.com

 

[cocomod]

There is no better an expert than a biomechanical/biomedical engineer for this subject area. Dr Welcher's qualifications and expertise are not in dispute.

He showed he knew the physics and the defence didn't crack him. In fact Alessi backed off during several challenges he started, which surprised me because it's commonly expected legal counsel will know the answer to their question before they ask it, IMO.

MOO

The hired, well paid “expert” admitted on the stand that he didn’t perform an actual test at the speed they insist she drove because he didn’t know what the outcome would be. The “experts” made a determination that there was a 3 second delay with pushing the key, but didn’t include that in their computations even though it was printed in their report. The “expert” used the last of the recording rather than the “event” to determine their findings. All of these things add up to MISCALCULATIONS. The “expert” used bits vs bytes - a very big error.

Dr Welcher does have a degree and is likely very smart. But, he was given a conclusion, and he worked backwards from there. A true scientific study would have been to prove that an arm would break a taillight. Explain how he ended up so far away from the road. Explain how taillight pieces didn’t drop on impact, but flew into outer space and landed way over on the lawn by the body.

 

[arielilane]

Re: "The data is what the data is” — Karen Read

It’s my understanding that defense accepts the three-point turn event and eight minutes later (in front of 34F) a backing up event happened at 24 miles an hour, agreeing that both triggering events occurred. Defense used the CW’s science.

Keep in mind that the techstream trigger event recorded 10 seconds, five seconds before and five seconds after, this is a snapshot not suggestive of when the impact actually occurred. Of course there is no opinion of when the impact exactly occurred.

DiSogra attempt to cause doubt:

He is trying to state there are different numbers that should have been applied to offset other possibilities, he is questioning whether or not three (3) seconds difference between key on is accurate or not. He further states many more vehicles should have been tested. DiSogra’s gap is around 30 seconds from the end of trigger event to lock event… within 30 seconds of defendant moving forward, stopping and then the backing up maneuver, John’s phone locked for the last time; and seconds later never moved again. He’s arguing mere seconds.

In addition, there was no impact recorded.

Moreover, he claimed that the triggering events are not caused by a collision, though, when asked by ADA Brennan on cross if this was his offering of an opinion he stated "he is not.”

Karen Read's defense begins with engineer who analyzes crash data

Defense attorneys called their first witness on Friday after a motion to dismiss the case was promptly denied.

www.wcvb.com

Timestamp 0:32

Reporter: so did you go in reverse 24 miles an hour 53 ft

KR:the data is what the data is and it's
going to come out cleanly more cleanly
in in our case and chief

 

[acutename]

What injury to his face? I heard testimony that described his face as being in a fight with Mike Tyson- to me this is a misinterpretation of what was seen. His eyes were swollen- the skin wasn’t broken, the nose wasn’t broken. A blunt force trauma on the back of the skull has enough force to cause the front of the face to suffer trauma. The back of the head injury explains the swollen eyes.
The only other face injuries I saw was a small cut on nose and small cut above right eye.
Not evidence of any fist hits by anyone to his face

Agree, if he wasn’t defending himself a dog could bite him on his arm. Still the dog would have latched on and not munched tiny bites up and down the arm. A latch bite would bruise. I saw zero bruises- and he wasn’t pronounced dead at the hospital until around 8AM. That is enough time for bruising if his face was able to swell around his eyes- and while laying in the snow! We use ice to prevent bruising and swelling- the snow and temps were not enough or were too late.

I look forward to hearing what the defense experts say, but I think they backed themselves in a corner by claiming dog bites

IMO

I have had dog bites- you do not always get the whole dental impression- sometimes one or a few teeth sink in and the others just scratch, and there can be claw marks- I was not ever bitten by police or trained attack dogs- some dogs who "bite" are not trying to take you down, they are just vicious or protective or "playful" and they back off when interrupted. I had dog bites running and biking - very often you get one deep tooth hole that could require a stitch or two and then gouges and scratches. my experience.

 

[waldojabba]

Say wha? lol
MP's friend JD who testified on Friday has no memory of any of the text messages.

@26:26

I can see that. It was a text chain to his old buddies from growing up.
I keep ties with people from the past bc it’s nice to share memories every now and again.
But I don’t agree with everything they do nor would I prob be friends with some of them if I met them today. It’s about history and loyalty. And yes I still consider them friends.
This friend is not a cop and prob not a true crime guy. He did not actively interact with Proctors text thread which was a long one - only once.
I hv a long time friend who sends me political texts aka rants almost everyday. I don’t agree with any of it so I just delete it all.
This guy maybe does the same with Proctor.
I wouldn’t be too harsh on an innocent bystander
JMO

 

[shotgun09]

The " Investigation" conducted by the MSP ( Proctor) was so tainted, and clearly designed to get the focus on the " whackjob *#** ", and off of the Boston Cop whose lawn another Boston Cop was found on...is so apparent. How other's cannot see that , or question that is beyond me.
The Blue wall is real.

Their was only focus on KR.

What party?
What fight?
What dog?
Who's house?

imo

 

[missy1974]

I thought maybe we would see the order sometime this weekend, about Proctor's friends. She did tell the friend that did the voir dire on Friday he would most likely have to come back on Monday, so is that an indication of how she will rule?

YB testified to messages from others in a group he was included in.
JMc testified to messages from other in a group she was included in.

Those are the 2 that I can think of right now, but there may be more.

The Judge is not known for her consistency though lol So we we will see tomorrow I guess!

 

[cocomod]

I don’t have any dog in this fight, but I think we ALL have an interest in seeing a fair and balanced trial.

The way our justice system works, is “innocent until proven guilty in a court of law”. My fight is that I truly believe the CW has not proven their case. Watching T1 and T2, I feel it is apparent that the CW has not proven BARD that she killed him. Did she? It is possible, but not proven.

The reason the ME wasn’t asked in this trial about whether a dog bit his arm is because the answer came in T1. She didn’t examine the arm injury. She didn’t measure the arm injury. She didn’t swab the arm injury. She can’t answer what she doesn’t know. But, I have a dear nurse friend with no knowledge of the case that immediately said that looks like dog bite injury. It doesn’t mean it was a total attack by the dog. Dogs attack quickly, grab, and if called off, just a few injuries. The dog is an issue because she was rehomed and they refused access before T1 to the defense.

I stated in a very long post in the last thread why I feel their case hasn’t been proven. The CW has rested and once again failed to deliver several key facts; the main fact the CW has proven is that OJO was hit by a car. This to me is a very important fact to not be able to prove. They proved he was found dead on the lawn. They have tried to prove she performed a 3-point turn and that she backed up. That is not proof she hit him.

 

[acutename]

The issue I read about was when the 14 came out with Crash Detection. 911 called automatically when a phone was carried on a rollercoaster and speed up very fast and then stop suddenly.
It wasn’t happening when a phone was dropped, as it wasn’t meant for falling down. They were coded to pick up a huge change in speed that would be similar to a car driving and then suddenly stop.
Lots of articles out there about this happening in 2022

IMO

I thought it was happening to skiers too even if they were not injured... the info I posted above says fall detection is the default if you are over 65 (!) and optional if you are 18-55- with the watch. Somehow that seemed a bit intrusive- and I guess Apple tracks your age. I know a work colleague- older- with dr offspring - who have him closely monitored.

 

[waldojabba]

In M00 a friendly reminder that from testimony, Michael Proctor deleted the location data from Karen Read’s phone in April 2022. It’s why Aperture was able to lie.

Yes thanks @Warwick7 good reminder
Procter deleted all Karen’s location data from her phone.
That needs to be out there front and center.
If it was favorable to the prosecution it’s not likely Proctor would hv found a need to delete it.
One more for the things that make you hmmm

JMO

 

[AngTxGal]

There is no evidence biophysical in nature or otherwise that proves JO was hit by the Lexus and his injuries caused by such. Even $400.000 couldn't elicit that determination. And the ME testimony was based on science and that's why the manner of death is undetermined. JMOO

Are you quoting me? I’ve said that many many times here that I don’t see physical evidence of her hitting him with the car breaking the taillight. But- the timing is close and it is plausible that she did hit him with her car.

The made up taillight evidence doesn’t mean she didn’t hit him with her car.
Nor does the taillight evidence fiction mean there is a massive coverup because he was beaten up inside the house and accidentally rendered dead.

Finding her Not Guilty seems to be what many want to happen.
I get that- the charges are high, a lot is at stake, and the taillight evidence is fiction. It looks like egos on the LE side and the DA side feel the need to be right- even if they don’t have the evidence to back it up.

So the defense has resulted into finding anything that causes reasonable doubt. Which means the ME wasn’t asked any questions to support the narrative given by the defense. We do not know what she thinks about the dog bites or fist fight that supposedly happened in the house.

This case likely should not have gone to trial, but a cop died in the yard of another cop.
So LE and the DA don’t want to sweep it under the rug. Egos are on the table

IMO

 

[lohrtabitha]

No, I can't see that.

It doesn't appear that the very large defence team saw that either, because that was't put to him. MOO

Doesn't the accused deserve a large defense team? KR, an innocent woman, whose life is at stake. Moo

 

[Warwick7]

There is a scenario of JO going into the house. Just the mere fact of why did Matt say “tell them the guy never went in the house” when (according to them) Karen hit John outside?... If JO is hit by a car outside, there’s no need to mention him going inside? But there’s a huge need to say that if he went in the house.

 

[Wishbone]

Are you quoting me? I’ve said that many many times here that I don’t see physical evidence of her hitting him with the car breaking the taillight. But- the timing is close and it is plausible that she did hit him with her car.

The made up taillight evidence doesn’t mean she didn’t hit him with her car.
Nor does the taillight evidence fiction mean there is a massive coverup because he was beaten up inside the house and accidentally rendered dead.

Finding her Not Guilty seems to be what many want to happen.
I get that- the charges are high, a lot is at stake, and the taillight evidence is fiction. It looks like egos on the LE side and the DA side feel the need to be right- even if they don’t have the evidence to back it up.

So the defense has resulted into finding anything that causes reasonable doubt. Which means the ME wasn’t asked any questions to support the narrative given by the defense. We do not know what she thinks about the dog bites or fist fight that supposedly happened in the house.

This case likely should not have gone to trial, but a cop died in the yard of another cop.
So LE and the DA don’t want to sweep it under the rug. Egos are on the table

IMO

Not only quoting you but agreeing with that statement and elaborating on it.

 

[cocomod]

In M00 a friendly reminder that from testimony, Michael Proctor deleted the location data from Karen Read’s phone in April 2022. It’s why Aperture was able to lie.

Thank you for this reminder! This is very important! The things that went “missing” in this case is astounding. Video surveillance deleted without reviewal, text messages deleted, phones completely destroyed and SIM cards thrown away, other video surveillance that wasn’t preserved properly so it could be analyzed for missing data, ring video deletion showing her arriving at OJO house.

Between this, the lack of investigation due to bias regarding it being a “cop”’s home and no chain of custody! These are huge red flags! This is about having a justice system that works for everyone! We should all be worried when we see nefarious actions by LE.

 

[AngTxGal]

The " Investigation" conducted by the MSP ( Proctor) was so tainted, and clearly designed to get the focus on the " whackjob *#** ", and off of the Boston Cop whose lawn another Boston Cop was found on...is so apparent. How other's cannot see that , or question that is beyond me.
The Blue wall is real.

Their was only focus on KR.

What party?
What fight?
What dog?
Who's house?

imo

Completely agree, and so we are left with flimsy evidence combatted by more flimsy evidence on the other side.
The scenarios presented by both sides appear to me like a lot of fiction, and that is what you get in a case where the stakes are very high and evidence is missing. Both sides are desperate, and the DA jumping in with such charges lacking evidence pushed the case in this direction.

IMO

 

[missy1974]

I suppose there isn’t evidence of being struck by a car without the taillight evidence. He could have simply tripped and fallen down.
Or- she bumped him and he tripped and fell down. I suppose without evidence she would have to have known and confess.

Does it follow then that he went into the house and was beat up? No, there is no evidence for that scenario any more than there is for the taillight breaking on his arm.
The cases on both side are pretty flimsy and lacking in solid evidence either way, which will result in plenty of reasonable doubt.

I think once this is over we won’t be any closer to finding out what actually happened, no matter the verdict. It is the family of JO that will feel let down.
But, sending KR to prison for what likely was an accident of some kind doesn’t make sense. I don’t see any way the Prosecution can prove without a reasonable doubt that she bumped him, knew she bumped him, and then knowingly left the scene.

IMO

I have tried to think of every scenario.. I always come up with something that "doesn't make sense".

I have considered he went to the trees to pee or throw up ... and fell....
I have considered he just slipped on the snow and fell...
I have considered she backed into him ...
I have considered that something happened in the house.. it doesn't have to involve a "beating", it could have been something as simple as one punch (wouldn't even have to be hard) and he went down and hit his head on something... JOK had a HIGH blood alcohol level, the Neurosurgeon testified that it is a typical injury he would see with drunks falling on the cement/ice (this is one thing that stood out to me from his testimony)

The one thing that is hard to explain in all scenarios that don't include some other person/force that caused it is... he had blood all over his clothes, including the bottom of his jeans, his clothes had vomit on them.

We have heard testimony that the laceration to the back of his head was blunt force trauma and he would have become immediately incapacitated.

How does that blood and vomit get on his clothes like that then? Why didn't he have frostbite after being there for 5+ hours? The CW can't have it both ways.. the ground was hard enough to cause the laceration because it was so cold, but not cold enough to cause frostbite in that snow?

The marks on the arm.. well.. I think I will wait for the ARCCA guys to testify LOL and I believe the defense has 2 witnesses to address the dog bites.

 

[lohrtabitha]

There is no better an expert than a biomechanical/biomedical engineer for this subject area. Dr Welcher's qualifications and expertise are not in dispute.

If this were to be true, the world is in a deep kind of trouble. Everyone is laughing at his antics all over the internet in my opinion. He has shamed his company. I would be interested to see how his company client numbers will drop in the next coming months/year. Clients will google his name as see the failed and immature blue paint experiment. Moo