MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #31 Retrial

[cocomod]

RSBM

So the defense has resulted into finding anything that causes reasonable doubt. Which means the ME wasn’t asked any questions to support the narrative given by the defense. We do not know what she thinks about the dog bites or fist fight that supposedly happened in the house.

This case likely should not have gone to trial, but a cop died in the yard of another cop.
So LE and the DA don’t want to sweep it under the rug. Egos are on the table

IMO

I agree egos and alliances happened here. That is why some had consequences including one LE losing his job.

The defense didn’t ask the ME about the bites because they knew her answer. She answered before in T1 that she didn’t really look at the arm wounds. She didn’t measure the depth. She didn’t swab them. Why ask in T2 when they know she didn’t even take them into account.

There doesn’t have to be a fist fight for there not to be a vehicle / pedestrian strike. But, there has to be a vehicle strike for KR to be guilty and OJO wasn’t hit by a car. That was proven by the ME and soon by ARCCA

 

[missy1974]

I watched this yesterday, they had Steve Plourd (an accident reconstuctionist) on and he knows Welcher. It was interesting to get his take on it.. basically, Welcher did an "okay" job, but could have gone further in his testing. He was in the middle of the road and I think whatever side of the fence you are on, it is interesting to hear another experts take on his testimony. JMO

 

[Mony Mony]

DBM

 

[Mony Mony]

Exactly- it is possible that LE did try to pin it more solidly on KR with the tail light evidence, but that doesn’t mean she didn’t bump him with her car. Nor does it mean LE killed him themselves and tried to frame her for a murder they committed.
I’m coming into this case late- only in the last week or so. I’ve not watched all the press coverage or circus that seems to be taking place. I have no pony in the race,
I’m interested in seeing how the science/math evidence is presented.

It is clear that there are strong sides- those for and against. Many posts here show clear bias because a side has been chosen. Which is fine- but tough to be objective about what is good science if you want you side to win.

IMO

Completely agree. I think two things can be true at once. I think Karen did hit JOK. And I think it’s very possible Proctor and his cronies wanted to enhance the evidence to ensure a conviction.

All MOO

 

[ChasingKaty]

To the people who think KR is guilty...do you feel the CW's case has proven that beyond a reasonable doubt?

 

[AngTxGal]

In M00 if you don't see evidence of JO being beat up or that he fought anyone then rewatch both trials.

Who knows if Higgins has a history of being hot-headed. It not matters.

No, I'm not going to go over for the 100th time why I think JO's injuries support he was in a fight. My posts are filled full of comments, you are welcome to go and read them.

I watched the Waterfall footage, it seems you have to have commentary to conclude that BA and BH were plotting to beat up JO. Without the commentary the footage looks like a bunch of guys drinking in a bar to me. You have to read a lot into body language and make a lot of assumptions to find a motive there. IMO

If you think there was a plot against JO- you have to conclude BH has a fragile ego and felt dissed by KR and for some reason thought it was JO’s fault. And BA egged him on. Exactly how does any of that land in JO’s lap?
You would think cops and a guy code would stick together- and BH would share the texts with JO so he knew KR wasn’t being faithful. Instead- he beat him up?
This means BH showed JO the texts and JO got angry at BH? Hmm

If JO was clued in at the bar before they left- that would prompt a fight in the car.
If KR saw BH and JO taking, she would be afraid JO was being clued in on her texts with BH then she would be angry that she got caught. Then she may begin to accuse him of being unfaithful- which is what she did.
Does she not have culpability in the fact that she was playing these two guys against each other? She had been in a relationship with JO for years, and she had a relationship with the kids. It seems bit juvenile- but that is what people do.

If you believe the Waterfall drama was important- you still have to have evidence JO was beaten up in the house by the other guys, then moved outside where he died.
What physical evidence in his injuries show an ambush and fight he lost? I’m not seeing it

IMO

 

[jepop]

Why would I need to see the both trials to know that those facial injuries and arm injuries are not from dog bites or a fight.<modsnip My background is in biology and physical sciences. That is why this trial has come to my radar- it has a lot of evidence that is biophysical in nature. And I have no pony in the race here at all, I’ve not made a conclusion that I need to defend, I’m trying to work through the evidence. Evidence in science and what is presented in a trial are not the same thing.

We do know what the ME says depends on the questions asked. You can’t conclude based on questions that were not asked. What she doesn’t say is that the wounds look like dog bites/ scratches or that he suffered blunt force trauma of the face from a fist fight.

The ME would be the testimony that is based in science, we will see what the defense does here to make the dog bites more solid. All the defense has to do is add doubt- and they have, but that doesn't’ mean he was bitten by a dog.

IMO

On your statements about the ME in this post: you could watch trial x1 ME testimony to understand she testified to having no idea what caused the arm wounds besides blunt force. She could not say what form that blunt force took and made no investigations beyond measurement. Moo

AJ managed to elicit that she couldn't rule out dog claws as the source, but ultimately she had no idea. Note that the cw stayed right away from asking her anything of import about them this time.

The ME is on the defense's witness list and she may be called to repeat she did not feel qualified to give a medical opinion beyond characterisation as blunt force.

Also, it is up to the prosecution to prove their case and they stayed away from asking the ME if those wounds were consistent with vehicle impact. That is telling. In trial 1 she said they are not the usual and she hadn't seen wounds like that in other relevant autopsies. See? that is one reason why the CW didn't even want to call her this time. Moo

 

[Mony Mony]

To the people who think KR is guilty...do you feel the CW's case has proven that beyond a reasonable doubt?

I think Karen hit JOK. But the CW has not proven it BRD. If I were on the jury, I would have to vote not guilty. I can’t take someone’s liberty away with the horrible investigation that was conducted.

 

[lohrtabitha]

Trust of LE in this area near Boston isn’t high, but LE and DA can’t seem to help but insert egos here. So now this case is a national circus opening a can of worms of macho egos with badges who think they can do whatever they want. Not a good look

When the high ups in LE commit crimes like the one posted here which is 4 miles from Canton, how can any of the police be trusted in this area? This has just been released by the DOJ Former Massachusetts State Police Sergeant Convicted of Bribery and Extortion Conspiracy.
Yep. I agree with you on not being a good look. And how posters can say that these corrupt practices isn't happening and plaguing this area, well it's beyond me. Moo

 

[Tortoise]

We have heard testimony that the laceration to the back of his head was blunt force trauma and he would have become immediately incapacitated.

RSBM

That isn't the testimony.

Dr Scordi-Bello testified "I can’t tell you how quickly he would have been rendered unconscious." She also testified that she does not know if he would have been able to move his hands or have brain function.

Dr Aizak Wolf brain surgeon testified that it was impossible to know whether he became immediately unconscious, but it was more probable than not that at some point he quickly became unconscious. Here I'm paraphrasing - the body can still move, but not with associated thought processes.

 

[Linda7NJ]

In M00 it's obvious that the CW is trying to force the defense to call Proctor so they can lead him through a prepped cross examination. This trial has been anything BUT fair to Karen and her team. I dont know how these people sleep at night...

If the defense wants to use those texts to show proctor’s state of mind they should come in through Proctor.
Otherwise it’s hearsay.

IMO

 

[AngTxGal]

To the people who think KR is guilty...do you feel the CW's case has proven that beyond a reasonable doubt?

I don’t think the definition of Guilty is that simple, and I don’t think it is based on feeling.

Do I think there is evidence to support that she hit him with the car and busted the taillight on his arm? No
Do I think there is evidence he went into the house and was ambushed by guys and beaten up? No
Do I think there is evidence he was attacked by a dog? No

What is missing is evidence, not sure this case should have gone to trial as evidence that isn’t tampered with or fictional is lacking.

Do I think KR should be found Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt so far? No
Does this mean she couldn’t have hit him with her car causing him to trip and hit his head- resulting in his death? No

JO died somehow- the how isn’t clear.

IMO

 

[ChasingKaty]

I think Karen hit JOK. But the CW has not proven it BRD. If I were on the jury, I would have to vote not guilty. I can’t take someone’s liberty away with the horrible investigation that was conducted.

I don’t think the definition of Guilty is that simple, and I don’t think it is based on feeling.

Do I think there is evidence to support that she hit him with the car and busted the taillight on his arm? No
Do I think there is evidence he went into the house and was ambushed by guys and beaten up? No
Do I think there is evidence he was attacked by a dog? No

What is missing is evidence, not sure this case should have gone to trial as evidence that isn’t tampered with or fictional is lacking.

Do I think KR should be found Guilty beyond a reasonable doubt so far? No
Does this mean she couldn’t have hit him with her car causing him to trip and hit his head- resulting in his death? No

JO died somehow- the how isn’t clear.

IMO

Thank you both for your answers. And you are right, guilty perhaps isn't the right word. Perhaps I should say "responsible for JO's death".

 

[AngTxGal]

RSBM

That isn't the testimony.

Dr Scordi-Bello testified "I can’t tell you how quickly he would have been rendered unconscious." She also testified that she does not know if he would have been able to move his hands or have brain function.

Dr Aizak Wolf brain surgeon testified that it was impossible to know whether he became immediately unconscious, but it was more probable than not that at some point he quickly became unconscious. Here I'm paraphrasing - the body can still move, but not with associated thought processes.

“It was more probable than not that at some point he quickly became unconscious.”
To me that is pretty strong statement for incapacitated. If he moved around while being unconscious that wouldn’t be odd. We have involuntary movement- reflexes.

What hasn’t been mentioned- that I’ve seen is seizures caused by blunt force trauma to the back of the head and brain bleed. The body convulses, moves erratically in this case, not unusually for traumatic brain injury or stroke when a person survives.

What a horrible way to die!

IMO

 

[lohrtabitha]

Say wha? lol
MP's friend JD who testified on Friday has no memory of any of the text messages.

@26:26

Coached coward! I got a feeling they may all claim that. Then the defense will have to decide to call MP or not. Moo

 

[jepop]

I agree egos and alliances happened here. That is why some had consequences including one LE losing his job.

The defense didn’t ask the ME about the bites because they knew her answer. She answered before in T1 that she didn’t even look at the arm wounds. She didn’t measure them. She didn’t swab them. Why ask in T2 when they know she didn’t even take them into account.

There doesn’t have to be a fist fight for there not to be a vehicle / pedestrian strike. But, there has to be a vehicle strike for KR to be guilty and OJO wasn’t hit by a car. That was proven by the ME and soon by ARCCA

She measured them, but not for depth. Otherwise yeah, not swabbed not researched. Jmo

ETA, it was up to Brennan in this trial to elicit from the ME the arm wounds were consistent with vehicle strike. Because of last trial he obviously skipped it.

 

[Mony Mony]

IMO, it would be a big mistake to not call Brian Albert, Higgins, and Proctor. They are the centerpieces of the conspiracy/botched investigation with the butt dials, destroyed phones, etc. it will be game over for Karen if they aren’t called.

All MOO.

 

[MerlinFalcon]

<modsnip: Quoted post was modsnipped> ... I went into the first trial convinced by the media that she was an evil person who ran him down. Then I saw the actual lack of evidence that he was hit by a car. The ME won't even say it. I keep coming back to how a human arm breaks a taillight into 47 pieces.

Same here. I am kind of ashamed of myself for forming a negative opinion without listening to the facts. Once that happened I changed my mind pretty quick.

 

[AngTxGal]

Sadly since LE never actually went into the house to check anything we will never know. My stepbrother is a cop and said he's never heard of a case where a body was found on a persona's property and they didn't bother to check with people inside the house.

I can’t believe there was zero communication between LE and Albert family in the home. My guess is that communication isn’t on record, they were trying to keep them out of it. Cops covering for other cops.
In this case I don’t think it was necessary- but the blue wall still came up, and here it stinks and looks suspicious.

IMO

 

[themonk]

In M00 it's obvious that the CW is trying to force the defense to call Proctor so they can lead him through a prepped cross examination. This trial has been anything BUT fair to Karen and her team. I dont know how these people sleep at night...

They sleep fine, in fact.

You tend to when you have no morals.