MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #32 Retrial

[Tortoise]

Russell and other experts have said- dog bites

RSBM

Which other experts are they?

 

[missy1974]

I watched the T1 testimony of the young people in the house- none of them mention seeing the dog. One mentions BAJr taking one of the girls up stairs to see Chloe.
BAJr says BA came home and when he found out BAJr had not let the dog out, he went up stairs and let Chloe out the back door. The timing of this could line up with KR and JO arriving.

It is possible Chloe heard JO out in the front and jumped the fence and bit him and knocked him down. BA may have not known. He called her and she came back to the back door.
If JO walked to pee in the trees- which would be a thing a guy would do after drinking… he was holding his phone, and a bar glass. What hand did he use to work his pants?

Where did he put his phone- back pocket?
How did he defend himself with a bar glass in hand?
Did he throw the glass at the dog?

It doesn’t explain or exclude cop coverup- that could have started when JO was found.

I can’t reconcile the body temp issue- JO out in the weather should have been colder than 80F.

IMO

Thanks! I did not watch all of Trial 1 and have not gone back to watch all of them, I have watched some of BH's testimony. I may eventually go back and listen to them all, but since they are not in this trial, I just haven't.

I do think there is a possibility it was something totally random, I have considered that BA was doing whatever to cover his own a$$ for liability reasons, whether because of his dog or something happened on his property.

JMO

 

[ShadyLady]

Thanks! I did not watch all of Trial 1 and have not gone back to watch all of them, I have watched some of BH's testimony. I may eventually go back and listen to them all, but since they are not in this trial, I just haven't.

I do think there is a possibility it was something totally random, I have considered that BA was doing whatever to cover his own a$$ for liability reasons, whether because of his dog or something happened on his property.

JMO

Very well could be. His home insurance probably would not cover Chloe. But, still does not explain why so many of them wanted john there that night.

 

[Warwick7]

So funny - seems the local buzz is -
What? no trial today bc too hot? Noisy fans?
How about get some air condo for that old building instead of spending all the money on this ridiculous trial

Summer is coming so this ridiculous
JMO

I told a friend that I didn't like the "break" during the defense's time. She thought it was perfect timing.
She said now the jurors will be thinking about Dever, Russell, Barros and Lucky yesterday afternoon and all day today.

 

[jepop]

RSBM

Which other experts are they?

Dr Sheridan (trial X 1). He was also an excellent witness. This trial the defense also has Garret Wing to come I believe. Moo

 

[Forest_Wood]

It's worth noting Judge Cannone already granted the CW broad scope to impeach Lucky's credibility on the blogger threats, alleged receipt of payment/benefits from supporters, evolving testimony after contact with the defence, recanting of statements to the FBI, improvement of times between trials etc etc

The only thing she didn't let Brennan do is present the actual threats in Court, because Lucky said he didn't know about them specifically. So the lack of foundation here is about that narrow point.

Brennan was already allowed to allege that Lucky changed his testimony because of threats and inducements.

This all illustrates how 3rd party justice warriors can damage a case.

MOO

Bogus! Brian L's testimony is not even that important in the big scheme of things. Just one more person out of all those Alberts and McCabe's and friends that never saw a body in the snow. Besides which it was 20/20 clear during his wholesome testimony that BL knows what he didn't see (a body on the lawn) and he knows what he saw (a Ford Edge parked on the street) that early morning. Bringing in 3rd parties is never going to change his integrity.
MOO.

 

[missy1974]

I'm reading that when Lucky was interviewed by MP and YB, it was recorded. The ONLY interview they recorded. Interesting. Do we have that recording?

They didn't interview him until after the PI/FBI/Blogger.

 

[Warwick7]

Brian Albert made a point to describe how Higgins moved his white jeep with a plow out of the driveway and into the street. Jen and Matt McCabe swore in testimony that they saw the white jeep parked next to the mailbox.
But everyone in the Nagel car testified to parking right behind Karen, where the jeep would have been. And no one else testified to seeing it.

Brian Higgins left 34 Fairview Road (Brian Albert's home) around 1:30 a.m. to drive to the Canton Police Department. He stated he was going to do "administrative paperwork".

No one knows where Higgins jeep with snow plough was. Prosecution needs it out of the way but Defence has testimony from prosecution witness in this trial saying it was there (Jen Mccabe)

If Jeep is there, the backup movement in KR car would lead to a collision with it.

Maybe something the prosecution should have cleared up to remove doubt, but Brennan's insistence in not calling BH, has left another doubt out there. Maybe he moved it somewhere else, but a maybe with this information is a doubt that the collision could have occurred based on a testimony by a prosecution witness, which the prosecution has not provided a clear solution to. (Maybe it comes in rebuttal, I feel like rebuttal is going to be as much of the case as the case in chief, with Justice Cannone refusing the defence a surrebuttal.)

BBM
I've often that about that so many times.

 

[Warwick7]

Brian Albert made a point to describe how Higgins moved his white jeep with a plow out of the driveway and into the street. Jen and Matt McCabe swore in testimony that they saw the white jeep parked next to the mailbox.
But everyone in the Nagel car testified to parking right behind Karen, where the jeep would have been. And no one else testified to seeing it.

Brian Higgins left 34 Fairview Road (Brian Albert's home) around 1:30 a.m. to drive to the Canton Police Department. He stated he was going to do "administrative paperwork".

No one knows where Higgins jeep with snow plough was. Prosecution needs it out of the way but Defence has testimony from prosecution witness in this trial saying it was there (Jen Mccabe)

If Jeep is there, the backup movement in KR car would lead to a collision with it.

Maybe something the prosecution should have cleared up to remove doubt, but Brennan's insistence in not calling BH, has left another doubt out there. Maybe he moved it somewhere else, but a maybe with this information is a doubt that the collision could have occurred based on a testimony by a prosecution witness, which the prosecution has not provided a clear solution to. (Maybe it comes in rebuttal, I feel like rebuttal is going to be as much of the case as the case in chief, with Justice Cannone refusing the defence a surrebuttal.)

BBM
Nagel also testified in T1 that KR pulled up a bit and her break lights were on and he/they saw nothing wrong with her tail lights.

In M00 I would imagine KR had her car in park, but when Ryan's truck pulled up behind her she moved a bit forward and just left her foot on the break. In M00 she was expecting JO to come right back out or come get her.

 

[AngTxGal]

RSBM

Which other experts are they?

I think this will work to show you. Time stamp is around 2.50

Court TV paid an expert to review the JO images to see if he agreed with Dr. Russell.

Here is his qualifications- he lists how many cases he has testified regarding dog bites

Dog Bite Expert CV


IMO

 

[ShadyLady]

BBM
Nagel also testified in T1 that KR pulled up a bit and her break lights were on and he/they saw nothing wrong with her tail lights.

In M00 I would imagine KR had her car in park, but when Ryan's truck pulled up behind her she moved a bit forward and just left her foot on the break. In M00 she was expecting JO to come right back out or come get her.

For sure, they would have noticed a tail light that was broken. It would have been seen clearly!

 

[Forest_Wood]

There is too much reasonable doubt already in this case for a jury to convict in the event they are able to put aside their personal biases and apply the faculty of reason to the evidence. I hope the jury takes their duties seriously.

Reasonable doubt so far:

• No evidence JOK clipped by a vehicle
• Body temperature not low enough for 5.5 hrs outside
• Blood/vomit on front of clothing
• Biased and incomplete investigation
• Proven lies from many CW witnesses
• No body seen for 5.5 hours by all those people
• Evidence of dog marks on arm
• Hos long to die in cold
• Staged sally port
• Tail light discrepancy
• Butt dials galore
• JMc not being concerned about her sister/BIL upon finding a dead man on their lawn

MOO

 

[Warwick7]

Working through scenarios, does this work?

JO steps out of KR’s car
KR thinks JO walked toward the door, instead he walks under tree to pee
KR waits
BA talks to BAJr and realizes Chloe hasn’t been let out. He lets her out in the back yard.
Chloe hears JO jumps the fence, he turns to defend himself and trips to fall and hits his head
Chloe has bitten JO on the arm- is startled that he is not moving
BA realizes Chloe is out of fence and calls her back inside.
JO comes to and crawls to sitting up, the head injury causes seizures and vomiting
JO has repeated seizures, phone comes out of wherever he put it while he peed, shoe and cap come off
JO never made it into the house, but he was nearer to it than where found- as per GPS
JO didn’t get a chance to tell KR to come inside
JO didn’t answer any texts from JMc or KR or BH

When JO is found the MP and attorney tells BA to stay inside.
The location and details of JOs arm tell MP that BA could be responsible.
MP chooses to takes actions to be sure BA is cleared- KR is blamed
BA is unaware of a coverup- he buys the story that KR is responsible.

At some point BA may have figured out Chloe could be involved and he could be pulled in.
So far MP has taken the fall.

None of the families, BH, investigators, EMTs, women friends, or adult children are involved, while some in the Albert house questioned when dog bites came forward as an option.

Now what do they do?


This seems as plausible as other scenarios, doesn’t it?
I just can’t reconcile body temperature- JO should be colder if he is outside 12:30-6AM

IMO

If so.....what was the point of the
group text message from Matt McCabe saying, “Tell them the guy never came in the house." ??

Or in particular why is JM googling “hos long to die in cold,” at 2:27am when John wasnt found till 5:30am or something??

 

[Warwick7]

Did BH not testify in T1 that he saw a tall, dark haired "stranger" enter the house at 34 Fairview? Or was that from an alternate source?

Yes, he did.

 

[waldojabba]

RSBM

This is why, quite separately to the eventual outcome in this case, I hope there are serious consequences for a 3rd party who engaged in this conduct. Whether or not it influenced Lucky we can never truly know - but the suggestion of it is extremely bad.

MOO

I am sure it has been mentioned many times already :
-Lucky gave his account to the PI sent to talk to him from the defense way before any blogger began his campaign. HIs recollection then was consistent with his testimony. There was no influence - its innuendo
-The times have changed a bit but they still remain within the same window of time - while he was plowing. We know he left the DPW approx 230am. We also know the police arrived at Brian
Alberts house around 6am There's your window. He went by twice. No body either time.
-You may have missed it but Lucky did not wear a watch. He was not focused on the time he was focused on the job. He kept his eyes where they should have been while operating a huge piece of machinery
-Each time Lucky has answered timing questions for the various LE agancies/lawyers, when he has been asked the time he did such and such he has given estimates. He then is forced to say a time by the person asking the questions.

All we need to know is what this man saw or did not see within the time window of when he started plowing and the police arrived at the scene.
HE SAW NO BODY
jmo

 

[Warwick7]

Working through scenarios, does this work?

JO steps out of KR’s car
KR thinks JO walked toward the door, instead he walks under tree to pee
KR waits
BA talks to BAJr and realizes Chloe hasn’t been let out. He lets her out in the back yard.
Chloe hears JO jumps the fence, he turns to defend himself and trips to fall and hits his head
Chloe has bitten JO on the arm- is startled that he is not moving
BA realizes Chloe is out of fence and calls her back inside.
JO comes to and crawls to sitting up, the head injury causes seizures and vomiting
JO has repeated seizures, phone comes out of wherever he put it while he peed, shoe and cap come off
JO never made it into the house, but he was nearer to it than where found- as per GPS
JO didn’t get a chance to tell KR to come inside
JO didn’t answer any texts from JMc or KR or BH

When JO is found the MP and attorney tells BA to stay inside.
The location and details of JOs arm tell MP that BA could be responsible.
MP chooses to takes actions to be sure BA is cleared- KR is blamed
BA is unaware of a coverup- he buys the story that KR is responsible.

At some point BA may have figured out Chloe could be involved and he could be pulled in.
So far MP has taken the fall.

None of the families, BH, investigators, EMTs, women friends, or adult children are involved, while some in the Albert house questioned when dog bites came forward as an option.

Now what do they do?


This seems as plausible as other scenarios, doesn’t it?
I just can’t reconcile body temperature- JO should be colder if he is outside 12:30-6AM

IMO

Interesting how Jen, Proctor, the DA etc...didn't go that route. Because it wasn't plausable. In M00 they refused to be liable for JO's death, even via the dog.

They went a whole separate route texting others "Tell them the guy never came in the house.".......

 

[AngTxGal]

If so.....what was the point of the
group text message from Matt McCabe saying, “Tell them the guy never came in the house." ??

Or in particular why is JM googling “hos long to die in cold,” at 2:27am when John wasnt found till 5:30am or something??

MMc was at the house- If JO didn’t come in the house- he would be telling the truth. No responsibility on BA if JO didn’t come in the house- or so it seems.

JMc Google search- I buy the tech issue with an open tab being used for one search and then another search later. She searched her daughter’s sport event schedule- then used the same open tab hours later to search- ‘how long to die in cold”. And that was 5:27 or 6:27AM.
We need a tech expert to tell us if that is possible, I’m not sure

All my opinion

 

[Forest_Wood]

If she is that dumb, I imagine she will be worthless in testifying in any court room again. Better find a new job.

Devers is as worthless as Proctor as a police officer!
MOO

 

[AngTxGal]

Interesting how Jen, Proctor, the DA etc...didn't go that route. Because it wasn't plausable. In M00 they refused to be liable for JO's death, even via the dog.

They went a whole separate route texting others "Tell them the guy never came in the house.".......

I’m not sure they would know that the dog was involved until after the autopsy and someone said- Hey that looks like a dog bite.
Then they had to circle the wagons regarding evidence of Chloe’s past- and that she could get out of the back fence.
If Chloe had already harmed people and BA was cited- he is responsible if she hurt someone else afterward. If that death could be linked to an accident caused by a dog bite- Huge!

IMO

 

[missy1974]

I think this will work to show you. Time stamp is around 2.50

Court TV paid an expert to review the JO images to see if he agreed with Dr. Russell.

Here is his qualifications- he lists how many cases he has testified regarding dog bites

Dog Bite Expert CV


IMO

I am curious... I don't watch a lot of the tv shows, or a lot of podcasts (other than LYK lol)

Has anyone come across dog bite experts, or dog trainers, etc, that say this is absolutely not dog bites?