MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #33 Retrial
- Thread starter Bishop Black
- Start date
- Status
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2018
- Messages
- 12,180
- Reaction score
- 137,510
Ouch!! 
"This decision by Cannone today limiting the board certified forensic pathologist should also lead to a separate mistrial motion in an of itself + a cumulative one by the defense ASAP. No Daubert had been filed before openings. Alan Jackson made reps to the jury about the evidence that the Dr would say. This was an ambush.
"This decision by Cannone today limiting the board certified forensic pathologist should also lead to a separate mistrial motion in an of itself + a cumulative one by the defense ASAP. No Daubert had been filed before openings. Alan Jackson made reps to the jury about the evidence that the Dr would say. This was an ambush.
I would vote no as that is absolutely normal. Geeeez, These people travel far and wide as witnesses, professional, must understand that. IMO
So just wanted to confirm that you believe Karen Read is innocent until proven guilty?
I strongly dislike Brennan's persona and actions, (prosecutors are supposed to truth seekers, not guilt seekers) but I would hire him if I needed defending, cause there ain't nothing he is leaving on the table to defend me.
Very much a non issue, personal attacking it seems as well. IMO regarding a person's relationship with their parents that they know nothing at all about. KR is a very fortunate person to have them for sure. IMO
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 11,225
- Reaction score
- 45,414
My adult kids phone me at odd times, sometimes it's because of something trivial but important to them. Like maybe, something like my BF is a d*** and I wanted to go home before this storm hit but I can't leave the kids alone, and then maybe again a few hours later when the BF still isn't home and you don't know what to do... yep, totally something my kids would do.
Shoot.. probably something I would do, and I'm in my 50's lol I would totally call my Mom (and my Dad when he was still alive) to vent and if I was concerned about something like that.
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2018
- Messages
- 12,180
- Reaction score
- 137,510
Yeah what happened to today??
The CW has no case, they have no collision.
They are terribly desperate. They are trying to create evidence of collision where the evidence doesn’t support it.
They've tried to fake evidence of holes in the back of John's shirt. And got busted!
Welcher also said: "There is no way of knowing how fast she was allegedly going."
Burgess lied about credentials so he could testify.
Welcher also said: "We don’t know exactly how he was struck."
Jen saw Karen out front at 12:45 when actually she was connected to John's wifi at 12:36.
Welcher also continued his testimony that he did not know “exactly” the angle of O’Keefe’s arm.
Oh yes... then there is Bukhenik lieing about the time he and Proctor took control of KR's vehicle. He had to admit on the stand they didn't know her Dad had video cameras.
The CW has no case, they have no collision.
They are terribly desperate. They are trying to create evidence of collision where the evidence doesn’t support it.
They've tried to fake evidence of holes in the back of John's shirt. And got busted!
Welcher also said: "There is no way of knowing how fast she was allegedly going."
Burgess lied about credentials so he could testify.
Welcher also said: "We don’t know exactly how he was struck."
Jen saw Karen out front at 12:45 when actually she was connected to John's wifi at 12:36.
Welcher also continued his testimony that he did not know “exactly” the angle of O’Keefe’s arm.
Oh yes... then there is Bukhenik lieing about the time he and Proctor took control of KR's vehicle. He had to admit on the stand they didn't know her Dad had video cameras.
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 11,225
- Reaction score
- 45,414
I think Welcher is most likely skilled in what he does. The fact that he did NOT do the testing that ARCCA did, tells me that he most likely knew the outcome and didn't want to do that.. he had a paycheck to collect.
Dr. Wolfe was not surprised by any of his tests. He had a good idea of what would and would not happen. I don't doubt for a minute that Welcher would agree in any other situation then this trial.
It really is like someone played the reverse UNO card ... the CW hired experts that are willing to say whatever they want, not do the testing to make them look bad, etc. They have unlimited resources to pay Aperture too (sorry Mass. folks
) All JMO
- Joined
- Aug 14, 2018
- Messages
- 12,180
- Reaction score
- 137,510
"Here’s me if I’m AJ starting my closing:
“You’ve heard testimony that many of the CW’s witnesses lied to the FBI during their public corruption investigation into the Norfolk DA’s actions in this case, and you obviously see that the judge and the prosecution worked hand-in-hand to hide materially significant evidence from you, which confirms our theory that Karen was framed.”
Just say it."
“You’ve heard testimony that many of the CW’s witnesses lied to the FBI during their public corruption investigation into the Norfolk DA’s actions in this case, and you obviously see that the judge and the prosecution worked hand-in-hand to hide materially significant evidence from you, which confirms our theory that Karen was framed.”
Just say it."
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 11,225
- Reaction score
- 45,414
I don't like predicting what a jury will do. I have watched too many trials where a jury has surprised me lol
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 11,225
- Reaction score
- 45,414
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2017
- Messages
- 2,545
- Reaction score
- 20,527
The way that Hank Brennan held up that transparent board with JOKs hoodie, and pretty much covered it so the jury couldn't see it, then put it right back within a few seconds, showed me everything there was to know about his motives and his dishonesty. The way he presented that was so ... devious and conniving. There's no other way to see it. The jury would have been shaking their heads too. Brennan is a huge disappointment for his lack of character or integrity IMO.
I would still go with 80% hung jury, 10% guilty, 10% not guilty.
I can smell it from twelve time zones away when the wind is good.
- Joined
- Nov 4, 2017
- Messages
- 2,545
- Reaction score
- 20,527
The thing is, all it takes is one person out of 12 who decides guilty, and at the same time, all it takes is one person out of 12 to decides NG. I think it will be another mistrial unfortunately.
- Joined
- May 6, 2023
- Messages
- 137
- Reaction score
- 1,330
I’d send this to Alessi.Sorry SO long, but I NEEDED to test all this out for myself. So I’m passing along in case anyone wants to “check” it. Totally understand if no one reads….its LONG.
KEEP IN MIND:
Fahrenheit is not linear, so when doing math with Celsius and Fahrenheit, you have to add/subtract in Celsius THEN convert to Fahrenheit.
Ok so here we go….
I looked in depth (over 28 hours) into “accidental” / not illness or surgery related hypothermic patient warming methods and how many degrees per hour each method raises core body temp.
The methods are broken down into 2 categories, passive and active. For THIS exercise, in order to believe BOTH the CW (he was out on the lawn 5hrs 45 mins) AND the ER (John was 80.1F / 26.7C) then warming methods HAD TO have increased his core temp A LOT — around 24.7 C - 26.7C. We are talking raising someone’s temp by 77F - 80F. It definitely can be, has been, and is done, but only when the Cadillac of warming methods is used, ECMO (Extracorporeal Membrane Oxygenation), and used for several hours. ECMO was not used on OJO, likely for 2 reasons:
—Severe brain injury due to head trauma “disqualifies” a patient from ECMO primarily due to the increased risk of bleeding complications associated with the required anticoagulation, and the potential for these complications to exacerbate intracranial hemorrhage
—There isn’t an ECMO unit at Good Samaritan in Brockton, MA
Moving onto Passive warming. It is not effective on a patient less than 29.4 C / 85 F because patient is unable to thermoregulate. So passive methods are used to stop heat loss, not increase, in such cases. OJO, IF on the lawn 5 hrs 45 minutes, would have been 0-2 degrees C / 32-36F therefore unable to thermoregulate. (He would have been unable to thermoregulate at 80.1 F the temp they say he was at intake.)
Passive Warming Methods
— move out of cold to warm area (heated room or ambulance in this case), remove wet clothes, apply blankets (increase of .5 - 1 degrees C/ hour IF thermoregulating)
ACTIVE warming methods used on OJO according to Dr. Rice’s testimony:
— Warm Intravenous fluids via IV (increase of 1-1.5 degrees C/ hour)
— Forced Air Warmth, such as the Bear Hugger (increase of 2-2.5 degrees C/ hour)
— Warm humidified ventilation via mask or ventilator (increase of 1-2.5 degrees C/ hr)
TIMELINE (from testimonies):
~12:30am OJO is alleged to have been run over
6:03am OJO is found
6:04 am 911 was called
~6:10am ambulance arrives on scene
~6:15 am stretcher is pulled onto lawn to transfer OJO
~6:20am ambulance leaves
6:47am OJO arrives in ER unit still asystolic with a core body temp of 80.1 degrees
7:50am OJO is pronounced dead
Based on timeline, from approx 6:15am to 6:45am OJO is IN ambulance where we know passive warming methods were used according to testimony. For THIS exercise we are ASSUMING he has been out in the cold since around 12:30am. So we can estimate his core body temp when put inside ambulance to have been 0 to 2 C / 32 - 36 F based on science in link at bottom of post and the chart at bottom of post that comes from the link.
The passive methods EMT used likely didn’t raise his temp. Only maintained it. (As established earlier, OJO was not able to thermoregulate.) But let’s go ahead and be generous with warming him up and ASSUME for this exercise passive worked, and they raised his temp .25 C in the half hour he was in the ambulance. (The lower end of passive increase range after a half hour.) So he would now be .25- 2.25 C / 33-36 F at 6:47am upon arrival to ER.
In the ER they attempted to raise his core temp for 1 hr before pronouncing him dead at 7:50 am according to timeline, but Dr. Rice stated in his testimony (linked below) that they attempted warming methods on him for a half hour. But we need to get his temp up a LOT, so let’s go with the timeline and be generous saying they warmed him from the time he arrived until TOD, 1hr.
Dr. Rice said in his testimony they used a bear hugger and warm intravenous fluids. I’m going to assume they were also giving him warm ventilation since that’s a pretty standard active warming method and Dr. Rice’s saying he was intubated to help breathing. & again, I need to be generous with warming him in order to get to 80.1F / 26.7 C .
To determine total core body temp POSSIBLE INCREASE, I used the lower range of possible increase for passive methods since OJO couldn’t thermoregulate, and the HIGHER end of possible temp increase range for each of the Active warming methods.
TOTAL POSSIBLE CORE TEMP INCREASE FOR EACH METHOD (passive in ambulance plus active in ER):
— Passive methods: .25 C
— Warm IV fluids: 1.5 C
— Forced Air Warmth/ Bear Hugger: 2.5 C
— Warm ventilation: 2.5 C
TOTAL POSSIBLE CORE TEMP INCREASE IS 6.75 C (44.15 F)
So, 0-2 C (temp he would have been when put inside ambulance after 5hrs 45 mins on lawn)
PLUS 6.75 C (total possible core temp increase from both passive and active warming methods)
EQUALS 6.75 to 8.75 C /44 to 48 F at time of death.
44-48 F is the TOTAL POSSIBLE core body temp he could have been at 7:50am if REALLY left out in those conditions for 5 hrs 45 minutes.
NOW, let’s do a SECOND exercise and go backwards with the temp they say he REALLY was.
Dr. Rice said he was 80.1 F (26.72 C) upon arrival in the ER. He also said “despite efforts for approximately 1/2 hour, there was not a significant warming of his core temperature.” So maybe they were only able to MAINTAIN his temp, so he arrived at 80.1 F and was the same at TOD??
Still though, for this exercise, let’s ASSUME they were successful and stick with 6.75 C being the total amount his core temp could have possibly increased in both ambulance passive methods and ER active methods combined.
We are working backwards from what the ER says he was, 80.1 F / 26.7 C, to determine what he could have been at 6:17am BEFORE warming methods began in ambulance.
The Math:
80.1 F / 26.72 C (temp in ER)
MINUS 6.75 C (total possible increase by warming methods)
EQUALS 19.97 C / 68 F (temp he would have been when FOUND)
So it’s and more likely he was found around 68F / 20 C based on the medical records, warming methods used, and charted core body temp upon intake.
According to the hypothermia chart 68 F/ 19.97 C occurs at approximately 1 hr and 40 mins exposure in the conditions that night in a light layer of clothing. So we can assume from this second exercise he was put out on the lawn around 4:37 am/ KR could NOT have hit him at 12:30am.
We have to choose who/what we believe, the CW or the medical records. We cannot believe both because it’s scientifically impossible for both to be true. The numbers are WAY too far apart to believe both, and science doesn’t lie. He could NOT have been warmed by more than 6.75 C during the 1.5 hours he was under medical care.
It is scientifically IMPOSSIBLE for him to have been out in the elements for 5 hrs 45 mins and have been 80.1F / 26.7C in the ER even AFTER warming methods.
Now for the THIRD exercise, let’s be most accurate with the science. (We are no longer being generous in an attempt to get him to 80 F from 32-36 F, what he would have been on the lawn after 5 hrs 45 mins.)
So being totally true to science, we know he couldn’t thermoregulate. So the passive methods in ambulance didn’t increase and only maintained his temp. And considering they weren’t having success, the active methods in ER likely only warmed him at the lower possible ranges, collectively that would be 4 degrees C total possible warming. So if he was raised by 4 degrees C, he was most likely 22.7C / 73F when found.
The math:
26.7C in ER
MINUS 4C (MOST likely amount his temp was able to increase from warming methods)
EQUALS 22.7 C / 73F when found
22.7 C occurs after 1 hr 15 mins in those conditions, so he was most likely put out there around 5am, 1hr 15 mins before put in ambulance. And keep in mind alcohol and blood loss quickens temp loss. Based on this staying hard core true to science exercise, exercise 3, I’m wondering if JM called someone after OJO’s niece called her at 4:53am and KR said i need to find John.
Let’s look at what happened around 5am, the time he would have been put out there according to exercise Three done with with 4 C being the total amount they were able to increase to get him to 80.1 F.
4:53 a.m.: Jen McCabe receives a call from John O’Keefe’s niece, who was told to call her by Karen Read, and learns that O’Keefe did not return home the night before. After the niece speaks briefly to JM, the niece gives the phone to Read, who decides to drive to McCabe’s home.
5 a.m.: Karen Read calls Kerry Roberts. She tells Roberts O’Keefe did not come home the night before and asks her to help look for him. Roberts calls the police non-emergency line to ask if there were any plow accidents, as well as Good Samaritan Hospital, before driving to meet Read and Jen McCabe at McCabe’s home.
It is my theory, that SOMEONE around 5am called someone at the Albert’s residence to make sure they moved OJO onto the lawn before they arrived with KR at 6:03am. SOMEONE then put OJO out there around 5am because Biology/Science doesn’t lie.
In summary, anyone choosing to believe OJO was hit by KR around 12:30am must also say the ER’s recorded core body temp was very very wrong. WAY off.
View attachment 593630
Cold Weather Survival Time – Body Physics: Motion to Metabolism
Dr. Rice’s testimony (ER doc)
At the 6:45 mark he says there was a breathing tube and arrived intubated
At the 15:55 mark he states the warming methods used
At the 17:40 mark he says “despite efforts for approximately 1/2 hour there was not a significant warming of his core body temp.”
This also makes sense when you think about all the back and forth instigated by JMc regarding all the driving/dropping off cars around that morning - to buy time.
ME says blunt force trauma and hypothermia—- could JO have been concussed and the McAlberts were hoping he would ‘wake up’? Then, with KR on the warpath, they made the decision to put him on the lawn and hope JMc could keep her occupied looking elsewhere?
- Joined
- May 6, 2023
- Messages
- 137
- Reaction score
- 1,330
Brennan is just jealous no one want to dine with him.
MOO
- Joined
- Aug 19, 2008
- Messages
- 11,225
- Reaction score
- 45,414
That was no mistake IMO
This is how he showed Dr. Wolfe, not even close to allowing the jurors to see, if this was Brennan's"mic drop" moment with Dr. Wolfe, why not display it to the jury?
Link cued up to when it was in testimony.
- Joined
- May 30, 2015
- Messages
- 11
- Reaction score
- 108
I loved Judge Kevin Randolph and often think of how this trial would be different if he were presiding over it!
- Joined
- Jan 3, 2016
- Messages
- 406
- Reaction score
- 5,670
The prosecutor in the Jodi Arias trial ended up disbarred for misconduct. I can only hope that Brennan is eventually held accountable since he won’t be from Cannone. IMO
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
- Locked
Staff online
-
TriciaManager Websleuths.com
Online statistics
- Members online
- 132
- Guests online
- 574
- Total visitors
- 706