MA - Professor Karen Read, 43, charged with murdering police officer boyfriend John O'Keefe by hitting him with car, Canton, 14 Apr 2023 #33 Retrial

[AngTxGal]

Karen had blood over her, indicates JOK still has a heart beat, when the girls arrived.

Thinking…
Karen having blood all over her doesn’t have to mean JOK had a heartbeat.
Her warm face could have defrosted frozen blood on his face to hers as she attempted rescue breaths

But yes he could have had a faint heartbeat due to the cold that was unable to be registered.
If his body was 80F- and signs of hypothermia- the blood goes to the core of the body and is not flowing through outer skin- nose, ears, fingers, lips that is why frostbite happens

But- JOK had a head wound- that likely was the source of most of the blood.
After five hours of exposure- what was the internal temp of his head?? Could that blood have been flowing- or not?

Where was the core body temp measured and when? To get 80F? too high

IMO

 

[Spider92]

Interesting…
So a coverup on a small scale had to become a coverup on a large scale because KR fought
And she fought because they increased charges thinking they would stop her fighting. IMO

Two sides didn’t budge but called each other’s bluff

This hints of a coverup for not only JOK but something else- is that your thinking?

So if KR is found Not Guilty- then will eyes turn toward other persons or will it all be dropped?
If the DA is part of the problem- what will they do? They have pushed so hard for ‘justice’ and looked no other direction- all their eggs are in a single basket.
Will the DA just drop?

Another Prosecuted case like this with such high profile and tunnel vision doesn’t immediately come to mind since OJ- and this case against KR doesn’t have nearly the circumstantial evidence as was present against OJ.
IMO

If she’s found NG, I don’t think the cw will re-open the investigation to identify another suspect. First of all, they’d be too pig-headed to acknowledge they got it wrong and second, I don’t see how they could ever try another person for John’s death - there would be automatic reasonable doubt since the cw had once (or actually twice) claimed KR was responsible.

 

[Malleeboy]

Thank you, this gives me a haunting/ sick feeling to read as I can imagine his movements.

12:24:38 - 12:32:56 In the car in front of the house
12:31:56 - 12:32:16 Start and End of 36 Steps


That is a fast 36 steps!! ??? What happened here???
The phone was thrown? It moved about 12 yards in a quarter of a second???

Well it is clear if JOK was moved from this scene inside and kept warmer- his phone was not.
Where is the phone info from 1:36AM to 6:06AM???

IMO

John O'Keefe was walking at the start of a blizzard, it is very cold, and he wasn't wearing much. Where ever he was going it would be quick movement.

 

[Malleeboy]

Thinking…
Karen having blood all over her doesn’t have to mean JOK had a heartbeat.
Her warm face could have defrosted frozen blood on his face to hers as she attempted rescue breaths

But yes he could have had a faint heartbeat due to the cold that was unable to be registered.
If his body was 80F- and signs of hypothermia- the blood goes to the core of the body and is not flowing through outer skin- nose, ears, fingers, lips that is why frostbite happens

But- JOK had a head wound- that likely was the source of most of the blood.
After five hours of exposure- what was the internal temp of his head?? Could that blood have been flowing- or not?

Where was the core body temp measured and when? To get 80F? too high

IMO

If his heart wasn't beating it would have coagulated fairly quickly at that temp but I'm not medical.

 

[Warwick7]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1931532410342330697

 

[AngTxGal]

John O'Keefe was walking at the start of a blizzard, it is very cold, and he wasn't wearing much. Where ever he was going it would be quick movement.

Edited

We are dealing with 36 steps in 20 seconds

If I assume 1 yard or so per step is 108 feet, easy math I’ll use 100 feet or 33 yards

33 yards in 20 seconds is a jog

The testimony accounts for the rise and fall in elevation- the phone is picking up driving up and down hills! So-those up and down movements are not necessarily up and down steps or climbing

IMO

 

[Warwick7]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1931503213200409081

 

[Malleeboy]

No that doesn’t square- if that is correct and the phone moved that fast it was not connected to JOK at the time. It was thrown for a distance of 36 steps or 12 yards, or about 108 feet

If I assume 1 yard or so per step is 108 feet, easy math I’ll use 100 feet

100 feet in 1/4 second is about 30 yards in 1/4 seconds
30 yards in 1/4 of a second, that is about 400 meters in 3 1/4 seconds. ???

Not possible- that is speed is about 13 times faster than the world record for 400 meters
World Record for 400 meters is 43 seconds
That would be a 3 min mile or 20 miles per hour

This movement of the phone more than 13 times faster than 20 mph which is 260 mph

So how did that phone travel 36 steps in 1/4 of a second??
It wasn’t attached to JOK when that happened- or he traveled that same speed!

If my math is correct- Wow, how did that happen?
Someone threw John’s phone across the yard!

IMO

Problem with that is that phones can tell different types of movement.
Mine knows when I'm walking, running or cycling.
It will tell me what type of exercise I'm doing.
The steps is not a distance measure per se, it is measuring the small rhythmic up and down that occurs when you walk.
A thrown or knocked phone would not measure that as 36 steps. You can walk up and down on the spot and that will measure as steps.
Which is what I found frustrating with Ian Whiffin testimony, it didn't ring particularly true to mu experience. Yes you can make a phone your are doing steps in a car, but that takes in my experience actually moving up and down in a rhythmic way. (My wife does it all the time, as she has thing where she uses her watch to ensure she moves every hours, and will move her hand up and down to mimic moving.) If you did that and was driving up a hill it might trigger it. (But my wife also tracks her steps, and I have never had her report that she has had steps added whilst driving.

I will have to dig up the testimony on phone movement, as the duration you claim seems much shorter than my memory.

 

[TristanP]

Karen had blood over her, indicates JOK still has a heart beat, when the girls arrived.

Karen said that she pulled a small piece of glass out of his nose and he started bleeding.

I am a nurse, and the explanation I offer for that is that due to the head injury and the extreme swelling of the brain, pressure had built up inside of John's head. When Karen removed that piece of glass, it allowed a way for the pressure to escape. Editing to add: the blood was probably a combination of blood and cerebrospinal fluid from the swelling in the brain.

There was a laceration on the back of the scalp which is another way some of the pressure could have, and probably did, escape, but from what we understand, he was laying on his back when found, which means the laceration may have been against the ground, and pressure was either not easily released or not at all released through that injury.

Therefore, the "bleeding" wasn't active bleeding from a beating heart.

John O'Keefe was most definitely deceased by the time his body was found that morning.

 

[Warwick7]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1931542672575279512

 

[Malleeboy]

Karen said that she pulled a small piece of glass out of his nose and he started bleeding.

I am a nurse, and the explanation I offer for that is that due to the head injury and the extreme swelling of the brain, pressure had built up inside of John's head. When Karen removed that piece of glass, it allowed a way for the pressure to escape.

There was a laceration on the back of the scalp which is another way some of the pressure could have, and probably did, escape, but from what we understand, he was laying on his back when found, which means the laceration may have been against the ground, and pressure was either not easily released or not at all released through that injury.

Therefore, the "bleeding" wasn't active bleeding from a beating heart.

John O'Keefe was most definitely deceased by the time his body was found that morning.

Thanks for that.

 

[SteveS]

Problem with that is that phones can tell different types of movement.
Mine knows when I'm walking, running or cycling.
It will tell me what type of exercise I'm doing.
The steps is not a distance measure per se, it is measuring the small rhythmic up and down that occurs when you walk.
A thrown or knocked phone would not measure that as 36 steps. You can walk up and down on the spot and that will measure as steps.
Which is what I found frustrating with Ian Whiffin testimony, it didn't ring particularly true to mu experience. Yes you can make a phone your are doing steps in a car, but that takes in my experience actually moving up and down in a rhythmic way. (My wife does it all the time, as she has thing where she uses her watch to ensure she moves every hours, and will move her hand up and down to mimic moving.) If you did that and was driving up a hill it might trigger it. (But my wife also tracks her steps, and I have never had her report that she has had steps added whilst driving.

I will have to dig up the testimony on phone movement, as the duration you claim seems much shorter than my memory.

Thank you for all this.

The ideas being aired here (and in court too?) that try to account for the "36 steps" coming from JOK being propelled in the air, or his phone being tossed, doesn't fit the way the Steps Counter devices work as I understand it. (I have never owned or used one, so I am relying on 2nd-hand info, but info that makes sense to me.) They measure phone device vibrations that would indicate a step being taken, as part of the required input. As a result, you don't get "steps" being counted while traveling in a vehicle, for example, even though you (your phone) are moving from one place to another.

That also eliminates the idea that the steps were recorded as JOK was in KR vehicle as they headed to Fairview.

Obviously that raises a question that is ignored - where did he take those steps? The time frame suggested in a recent post would be 20 seconds, I believe, which for 36 steps would be about 2 steps/second and a fairly brisk pace. (But we can't know if they were big strides or small mincing steps if the footing was treacherous.) Would 36 steps get him from the street to the front door of the house, maybe, in a semi-trot because it's cold, after which there's no signal once he enters?

But some plausible possibility for the 36 steps certainly has to fit whatever explanation anyone wants us to believe, and "he flew in the air for 36 steps" or "his phone went sailing for 36 steps" is really NOT the actual answer, per the way the technology works.

 

[nightowl1975]

Karen said that she pulled a small piece of glass out of his nose and he started bleeding.

I am a nurse, and the explanation I offer for that is that due to the head injury and the extreme swelling of the brain, pressure had built up inside of John's head. When Karen removed that piece of glass, it allowed a way for the pressure to escape. Editing to add: the blood was probably a combination of blood and cerebrospinal fluid from the swelling in the brain.

There was a laceration on the back of the scalp which is another way some of the pressure could have, and probably did, escape, but from what we understand, he was laying on his back when found, which means the laceration may have been against the ground, and pressure was either not easily released or not at all released through that injury.

Therefore, the "bleeding" wasn't active bleeding from a beating heart.

John O'Keefe was most definitely deceased by the time his body was found that morning.

I am also medical, yet it doesn’t make sense to me to say intracranial pressure from a brain injury would “escape” through a cut from a small piece of glass around the nose area. Intracranial pressure also doesn’t release through scalp wounds. This is why we see burr holes or even bone flaps removed to relieve ICP.

 

[justwannahelp]

And not to mention is physical condition, with a severe head injury that very likely affected his bodily functions - heartbeat, breathing, etc. He should have been much colder if he'd been out there that long, and the ambulance warming imo cannot account for that 80* temp.

I did a study on warming methods used to warm hypothermic bodies. You are right to doubt the ambulance warming warning him from 32 degrees to 80.

It would be real interesting to see the damage that Chloe did to the neighbors she attacked. There has to be photos? I wonder why the defense didn't try to get a hold of them.

YES!!! The PHOTOS from previous attacks by Chloe!!!!

 

[TristanP]

I am also medical, yet it doesn’t make sense to me to say intracranial pressure from a brain injury would “escape” through a cut from a small piece of glass around the nose area. Intracranial pressure also doesn’t release through scalp wounds. This is why we see burr holes or even bone flaps removed to relieve ICP.

Sorry, I didn't explain it very well. What I was thinking is that if there was blood from the glass cutting the nose, the pressure from the swelling in the nasal and orbital cavities may have made that blood come out when she removed the glass. Not from the ICP but from the swelling to the head overall.

Since there is also a possibility he was punched in the nose or face, there may have been blood in the nasal cavities from that as well. There is blood down the front of his shirt, so he was bleeding from the face at some point.

I believe the paramedics also said they did some suctioning on him, but can't recall specifically what they said the contents of the suctioning were.

 

[TristanP]

Thank you for all this.

The ideas being aired here (and in court too?) that try to account for the "36 steps" coming from JOK being propelled in the air, or his phone being tossed, doesn't fit the way the Steps Counter devices work as I understand it. (I have never owned or used one, so I am relying on 2nd-hand info, but info that makes sense to me.) They measure phone device vibrations that would indicate a step being taken, as part of the required input. As a result, you don't get "steps" being counted while traveling in a vehicle, for example, even though you (your phone) are moving from one place to another.

That also eliminates the idea that the steps were recorded as JOK was in KR vehicle as they headed to Fairview.

Obviously that raises a question that is ignored - where did he take those steps? The time frame suggested in a recent post would be 20 seconds, I believe, which for 36 steps would be about 2 steps/second and a fairly brisk pace. (But we can't know if they were big strides or small mincing steps if the footing was treacherous.) Would 36 steps get him from the street to the front door of the house, maybe, in a semi-trot because it's cold, after which there's no signal once he enters?

But some plausible possibility for the 36 steps certainly has to fit whatever explanation anyone wants us to believe, and "he flew in the air for 36 steps" or "his phone went sailing for 36 steps" is really NOT the actual answer, per the way the technology works.

Do you have a cell phone? Most phones record movement whether you're aware of it or not.

 

[jepop]

Lol. Have you met the judge? There’s your reason there was no dismissal.
JMO

The judge's bias was never more apparent than during Brennan's appalling cross of Dr Wolfe. When cannone says she'll allow Brennan a 'vigorous' cross it must mean different things to when she says she'll allow Alessi a 'vigorous' cross of Welcher. For Brennan, 'vigorous' includes badgering the witness when he says he can't answer the question as stated, along with attorney commentary.JMO

 

[jepop]

The defense is pushing dog bites and I totally agree. When or how is the dog of this evidence going to be introduced??

Bukhenic. I think Bukhenic already introduced Chloe in his testimony, cross or direct or both. IIRC.

 

[justwannahelp]

I have speculated that the head injury could have caused seizures- because he vomitted.
It would informative to hear from a medical examiner if that was the case and if seizures could prolong the time for hypothermia.
I’ve been present for about ten grand mal seizures. Some are so violent- all the muscles are firing, and they are seizures so the brain is full of random electrical impulses.

Does that movement and electrical activity slow hypothermia?

I don’t know.

IMO

Shivering does buy not to the extent needed to stay 80.1 degrees

& Shivering stops in stage 3 hypothermia

But i see what you mean - could movement from seizure keep him warm. I don’t think it would slow down temp drop nearly enough to have him 80.1 degrees (if he was really on the lawn for 5 hrs 45 mins.) i say 5 hrs 45 because i don’t think he was put into the ambulance until 6:15am.

I did a very detailed study on warming methods today and used the timeline we know exists. I’ll post it tomm. My conclusion is they couldn’t have increased his body temp by more than 6.75 C from 6:15am to 7:50am using both passive and active warming methods.

I break it down way more than anyone will feel like reading. It’s loooong, but i NEEDED to know for myself

 

[justwannahelp]

My speculation only…

Dever was present, her shift had ended so she was off the clock but she had stayed
She is a rookie cop and a possible murder had taken place- she was showing initiative.
When the story came out she remembered what she had seen and it was incriminating.
She came forward- to the FBI and told them what she saw.
She got cold feet, felt pressured, whatever… and remembered she had technically clocked out- she was not on duty.

So- she technically wasn’t there. By claiming what her time card showed- she could not have seen what she saw.
So, she wiggled out of it- went to the FBI and told them she was mistaken.

Completely my speculation, but it works
IMO

Didn’t she say she worked overtime that day??