MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #6

[Rocky1]

Can locals get more locals in here? That could really help.

I am certainly not pointing fingers here, and I am fairly local myself.
Yes, locals can help but the thing with locals is they hear rumors, and a lot are not true. Then those rumors grow wings and before you know it, they become facts that are believed for years.
I am not saying that is the case here in this forum, I am saying it happens everywhere.
Jayne Mansfield was killed in a car accident, and a reporter saw a wig on the dash, and reported she was decapitated. Even the undertaker said it wasn't true, but almost 50 years later, people still believe it.

 

[Kickoff61]

I am certainly not pointing fingers here, and I am fairly local myself.
Yes, locals can help but the thing with locals is they hear rumors, and a lot are not true. Then those rumors grow wings and before you know it, they become facts that are believed for years.
I am not saying that is the case here in this forum, I am saying it happens everywhere.
Jayne Mansfield was killed in a car accident, and a reporter saw a wig on the dash, and reported she was decapitated. Even the undertaker said it wasn't true, but almost 50 years later, people still believe it.

I understand.

 

[Kickoff61]

So, we are coming up on 5 months now with no arrest.
Very few clues to go on, and 6 threads here with many great theories and thoughts. With so little to go on, anyone of these theories could very well be a possibility of what happened.
Based on how LE works:
1) Knowing that LE starts with the family, and works their way out from there, after 5 months, does everyone/anyone think that family, friends, relatives, ex boyfriends, and co workers have been checked out and illuminated?
2)Not knowing, but assuming that LE started at the crime scene, and worked their way out from there canvasing the neighborhood, does everyone/anyone think the immediate neighbors have been checked out and illuminated?
3) LE has mentioned the SUV, based on a/several tips. Does everyone/anyone think that an SUV was involved?
4) Does everyone/anyone think that LE has a solid suspect in mind?
If someone thinks the answer to question 1 and 2 is no, and 3 and 4 is yes, can you tell me why they are doing a DNA dragnet?

I think the last heard of a DNA dragnet was just after the SUV was reported and a resident spoke out about giving voluntary DNA. I don't think anything has been reported since that time frame.

 

[DeDee]

So, we are coming up on 5 months now with no arrest.
Very few clues to go on, and 6 threads here with many great theories and thoughts. With so little to go on, anyone of these theories could very well be a possibility of what happened.
Based on how LE works:
1) Knowing that LE starts with the family, and works their way out from there, after 5 months, does everyone/anyone think that family, friends, relatives, ex boyfriends, and co workers have been checked out and illuminated?
2)Not knowing, but assuming that LE started at the crime scene, and worked their way out from there canvasing the neighborhood, does everyone/anyone think the immediate neighbors have been checked out and illuminated?
3) LE has mentioned the SUV, based on a/several tips. Does everyone/anyone think that an SUV was involved?
4) Does everyone/anyone think that LE has a solid suspect in mind?
If someone thinks the answer to question 1 and 2 is no, and 3 and 4 is yes, can you tell me why they are doing a DNA dragnet?

1. We have no way to know even though it is Princeton's LE and WCSD's job to investigate the crime. One of this magnitude sets a historic precedent for a staff that may not be prepared to handle the caseload. If not, then surely they have reached out to other depts for assistance.

2. Yes, they have canvassed the neighborhood to the best of their ability. I doubt killer was in town visiting friends or relatives while driving a dark SUV.

3. The dark SUV tip did not become public for a while after the murder. Therefore, I do not feel this tip came from family or friends. It must be considered without outright rejection. The descriptive word dark is not a specific color. I am not sure that we should focus on dark SUVs but the residents surely should remain vigilant about them.

4. No, they do not have a solid suspect although they may have established a few POIs unknown to the public. If they did have solid evidence, then why ask the public about a dark SUV seen at the time and near the place of the crime scene?

I wonder why Princeton LE have not sent a couple of investigators to NYC unless they feel the crime was committed by one of their own or nearby residents?

 

[Kickoff61]

1. We have no way to know even though it is Princeton's LE and WCSD's job to investigate the crime. One of this magnitude sets a historic precedent for a staff that may not be prepared to handle the caseload. If not, then surely they have reached out to other depts for assistance.

2. Yes, they have canvassed the neighborhood to the best of their ability. I doubt killer was in town visiting friends or relatives while driving a dark SUV.

3. The dark SUV tip did not become public for a while after the murder. Therefore, I do not feel this tip came from family or friends. It must be considered without outright rejection. The descriptive word dark is not a specific color. I am not sure that we should focus on dark SUVs but the residents surely should remain vigilant about them.

4. No, they do not have a solid suspect although they may have established a few POIs unknown to the public. If they did have solid evidence, then why ask the public about a dark SUV seen at the time and near the place of the crime scene?

I wonder why Princeton LE have not sent a couple of investigators to NYC unless they feel the crime was committed by one of their own or nearby residents?

They could have a color of a dark SUV in mind, but by requesting info. from the public, they are not leading witnesses with the color. Someone could have called in the color of a dark SUV on that road near the crime scene and by asking for info. on a dark SUV , if someone else calls in with info. and the same specific color, that tip is strengthened, matching the other one. In addition, they wanted info. from people who knew someone with access to a dark SUV that day, so anyone who knows someone who did, ought to be calling in also.

 

[Kickoff61]

There is the responsibility of those who know this person with any questions or concerns in mind to call in. That includes access to a dark SUV. To avoid doing so is obstructing justice.

They could have person's of interest in mind and lean toward someone in the area due to their investigation which would be why they would be doing the DNA dragnet. They can have persons of interest without fully what they need for the court order for a DNA.

Also, there is no knowing who may have refused voluntary DNA testing.

 

[Rocky1]

1. We have no way to know even though it is Princeton's LE and WCSD's job to investigate the crime. One of this magnitude sets a historic precedent for a staff that may not be prepared to handle the caseload. If not, then surely they have reached out to other depts for assistance.

2. Yes, they have canvassed the neighborhood to the best of their ability. I doubt killer was in town visiting friends or relatives while driving a dark SUV.

3. The dark SUV tip did not become public for a while after the murder. Therefore, I do not feel this tip came from family or friends. It must be considered without outright rejection. The descriptive word dark is not a specific color. I am not sure that we should focus on dark SUVs but the residents surely should remain vigilant about them.

4. No, they do not have a solid suspect although they may have established a few POIs unknown to the public. If they did have solid evidence, then why ask the public about a dark SUV seen at the time and near the place of the crime scene?

I wonder why Princeton LE have not sent a couple of investigators to NYC unless they feel the crime was committed by one of their own or nearby residents?

I agree with everything you posted.
If they have no suspect, I'd have to say that although they suspect "one of their own," investigators have gone to NY to at least question co workers, Maybe not because they suspect one, but maybe to ask things people closer to her what her lifestyle was there, or if she was dating etc,
I don't think Princeton would have sent them. The Worcester DAs' office took the case from day one, so either State Police, or FBI is my guess.

 

[Rocky1]

They could have a color of a dark SUV in mind, but by requesting info. from the public, they are not leading witnesses with the color. Someone could have called in the color of a dark SUV on that road near the crime scene and by asking for info. on a dark SUV , if someone else calls in with info. and the same specific color, that tip is strengthened, matching the other one. In addition, they wanted info. from people who knew someone with access to a dark SUV that day, so anyone who knows someone who did, ought to be calling in also.

I could see witholding color if they were in the first stages of gathering tips, but after 3 months I'd say if they are releasing that is was an dark SUV and they had a color in mind, they would release that too at this stage.
I think that tip was rather vague to be honest, and again with the traffic flow on that road, how many of those 1000+ tips came from those travelers passing by. 5? Out of those 5, how many said it was dark blue, and how many said dark gray, or black. And out of those 5, how many guessed the time and were off by a half hour and really saw an unmarked State Police cruiser? I am not saying it was, but, I am far from convinced that it wasn't.

 

[liz b.]

I was just trying to be thorough and explore all angles...so decided to look into any possible overlaps with this and other local crimes.

The only two I can think of that are fairly local and similar would be Molly Bish and Holly Piiranean.

Holly was 9, it was August 5, 1993. she was abducted on a country road near a pond in Sturbridge MA a little after noon, her body was found in a wooded area 5 miles away just over two months later.

Molly was 16, it was June 26/27, 2000. She was abducted from Warren MA from her lifeguard post at a remote pond sometime in the morning (9-10?). Her body was found in a wooded area about 5 miles away in Palmer near a hunting club.

Now just for comparison...

Vanessa was 26, it was August 7, 2016. She was murdered on a country road in Princeton, MA btw 1-3pm. Her body was found on a wooded area.

So there are differences but I tried to look for patterns too...maybe I'm reading too much into this...but I couldn't help but notice a few things...

The dates are all around the same time, two within days of each other. June 27, August 5, August 7. The girls ages also chronologically get older; 9, 16, 26.....I know most serial killers have types but can some serial killers type age as they age?

Also the towns are similar in ways...windy wooded roads, upper middle class to affluent.

But some differences of course...the two earlier ones he abducted and took them elsewhere...leaving them where their bodies succumbed to elements before they were found...and hers was found within hours.

There is also a 7 year gap btw the summer of 1993 and 2000...and a 16 year gap btw Molly and Vanessa.

As I read more I came across this man:

https://www.janedoenomore.org/story/articles/95-1212005

He is from Waterbury CT, he comes from a wealthy family...he use to have business in Sturbridge and worked outdoors as a distributor and in roofing.

He was convicted of trying to abduct a 17 year old track star from the parking lot of a Saratoga HS in 2005...he had ties and tarps and a shovel in his van..she fought him off.

He was also convicted on abduction charges for a rape from Nov 11, 1993 which had outrun its statute.

They were looking at him for other cases, including Molly Bish. he plead guilty to the charges before him in CT and NY and the rest of the investigations seemed to miraculously go away.

As of 2005/2006 he was to serve a 12 year sentence for his NY crime and a concurrent 15 year sentence for CT crime.

Is it possible he got out early? Is it possible he moved to a new location where no one recognized him? Or went by a different name? Would he have more "leverage" coming from money?

And most importantly do you think LE would have already cross compared this guys DNA?

RBBM : I know that some serial predators seem to seek ever younger victims . Ted Bundy's last victim was a little girl, aged around 6. Perhaps because younger victims are easier to lure, abduct and/or kill. IDK. jmo

 

[DeDee]

I just watched on FB
Bob Ward FOX25 News's live video.
November 3 ·

Within the first minute, Bob says that VM was expected to take the train back to NY.

I cannot imagine a young lady riding on a bus for almost four hours on Fri to visit her mother and again on Sunday to go back to NYC twice a month. Taking the train makes more sense to me. I believe this reporter, Bob Ward.

In the live report, BW shows images from the crime scene and describes the burn pit (his words). The burn area stretches over a larger than I expected.

https://www.facebook.com/fox25news/videos/10154353097608122/?hc_ref=SEARCH

 

[DeDee]

Listened to Jim Polito ‏@JimPolito Aug 12 (5 days after the murder of VM)

#BREAKING DA: Has confidence #VanessaMarcotte's killer will be caught, but warns people to take steps for safety.
http://wtag.iheart.com/media/play/27226118/

In this interview, the Worcester County DA Joseph Early, Jr. suggests that the UnSub likely had scratches "maybe on his face, eyes, neck area, arms, you know, the eyes, something like that ...."

Hence, damage to Perp's eyes is the DA's speculation. LEO does not know where the Perp was injured by VM. Not sure what evidence they hold, other than DNA, possibly from his scratched skin tissue, but LE is adamant that VM fought fiercely with her attacker.

After listening to Bob Ward, and now this interview with the WCDA, I am convinced that VM possessed knowledge in self-defense. I was taught to take two fingers, the pointer and middle finger, and jam them into the soft portion of the neck, below the Adam's apple, during an attack. VM surely scratched his arms in an effort to force release and may have poked UnSub's eyes but we do not know for sure that she did. IOW, we shouldn't sleuth for a guy with a patch over his eye.

 

[ThinkHard]

RBBM : I know that some serial predators seem to seek ever younger victims . Ted Bundy's last victim was a little girl, aged around 6. Perhaps because younger victims are easier to lure, abduct and/or kill. IDK. jmo

Yes but I am asking the opposite...in this case if they are connected the victims got older, not younger.

Also what's interesting about the guy who the article is about...is neither of his crimes had a solid MO...one conviction was trying to abductba 17 year old track star from the parking lot of her school...the other was 20 years prior when he broke into a friend and neighbors house with a mask and raped his friends wife.

He was also accused of sexually assaulted business associates and conworkers. And was looked into for the murder of Maura Maury and Molly Bish and a bunch of prostitutes.

But I couldn't believe he was a traveling salesman for a roofing supply company...especially after some of our talks here. (The article is worth reading even though it's long)

Hopefully he's still in jail, or not allowed to cross state lines, or already been cross compared.

 

[ThinkHard]

In this interview, the Worcester County DA Joseph Early, Jr. suggests that the UnSub likely had scratches "maybe on his face, eyes, neck area, arms, you know, the eyes, something like that ...."

Hence, damage to Perp's eyes is the DA's speculation. LEO does not know where the Perp was injured by VM. Not sure what evidence they hold, other than DNA, possibly from his scratched skin tissue, but LE is adamant that VM fought fiercely with her attacker.

After listening to Bob Ward, and now this interview with the WCDA, I am convinced that VM possessed knowledge in self-defense. I was taught to take two fingers, the pointer and middle finger, and jam them into the soft portion of the neck, below the Adam's apple, during an attack. VM surely scratched his arms in an effort to force release and may have poked UnSub's eyes but we do not know for sure that she did. IOW, we shouldn't sleuth for a guy with a patch over his eye.

I think its possible she gave him a bloody nose, maybe even kicked him there...perhaps he bleed on her clothes and it's why he took them or burned them. There is a way to break someone's nose across the bridge and then hit it from underneath sending broken bone into the brain....that's what I learned in self defense anyway....that and how to break out of someone's grip by twisting your arm around to put pressure on where the thumb and finger meet.

I also wonder if it's possible they found a contact..and perhaps even got DNA from it...could also be why they suspected a possible eye injury.

 

[ThinkHard]

I just watched on FB
Bob Ward FOX25 News's live video.
November 3 ·

Within the first minute, Bob says that VM was expected to take the train back to NY.

I cannot imagine a young lady riding on a bus for almost four hours on Fri to visit her mother and again on Sunday to go back to NYC twice a month. Taking the train makes more sense to me. I believe this reporter, Bob Ward.

In the live report, BW shows images from the crime scene and describes the burn pit (his words). The burn area stretches over a larger than I expected.

https://www.facebook.com/fox25news/videos/10154353097608122/?hc_ref=SEARCH

To take the train from WORCESTER to NYC would take just as long but be significantly more expensive....buses are $25-50....a train would be more like $300. Which adds up if your coming home twice a month.

It takes about 3,5hrs to get from NYC to Providence via Amtrak...it's another hour to backbay in Boston...plus then switching trains to get from Boston to Worcester which is roughly another hour. Plus driving to her house in Princeton.
That's 6 hours right there.

The shorter train option is to switch trains in New Haven and get on the northern line that goes to VT...it goes through Hartford and Springfield both about an hour from here...but Hartford is a shorter train ride...you can be in Hartford by train in about 2.5 hours and then picked up there driven home...it's about 3.5 total and cost under $100. But I've never heard of VM doing that.

I've always heard she took a bus and it was at 430.

Like I said the train wouldn't have been shorter and would have been more exoensive...so I think the bus is likely right and Bob ward likely mispoke.

 

[ThinkHard]

For what it's worth I looked into Sunday NYC bound train departures from Worcester and this is the only thing I could find. (Note it's just one way and i searched for Sundays)


Also for what it's worth...I haven't found a bus that's departs 430 on a Sunday from Worcester either....I'll keep looking.

 

[ThinkHard]

Hmmm maybe I figured it out...not sure...there is a local Framingham/Worcester line that departs Worcester headed for Boston each Sunday at 4:30pm.

The train gets its Boston right around 6. She could either get off at South Station or backbay .... Amtrak northeast regional goes through both stations.

The next NYC bound Amtrak train is at 645pm...arriving at Penn Station at 10:50.

So perhaps this is the route she took home?

I know as a female I NEVER took the bus and always took the train...but it's definelty not a shorter commute home....still a 6.5 hour trip about and it is more expensive....

We have been told a bus...but the times do match what I found above. So who knows.

 

[Kickoff61]

Exactly my point. This struggle would have lengthened the time and not knowing of her self defense skills, left him with injuries he did not expect, then a possible calculated plan changing to a spontaneous rush to cover up. I do believe that was the turning point, where things went wrong for him.

 

[Kickoff61]

I could see witholding color if they were in the first stages of gathering tips, but after 3 months I'd say if they are releasing that is was an dark SUV and they had a color in mind, they would release that too at this stage.
I think that tip was rather vague to be honest, and again with the traffic flow on that road, how many of those 1000+ tips came from those travelers passing by. 5? Out of those 5, how many said it was dark blue, and how many said dark gray, or black. And out of those 5, how many guessed the time and were off by a half hour and really saw an unmarked State Police cruiser? I am not saying it was, but, I am far from convinced that it wasn't.

It's hard to say, but I do see what you are mean. Although I also know they want tips to corroborate together for 'quality' as I believe one of the authorities mentioned being focused on quality , not quantity. I would have to find the source on that though to confirm. They are 'strengthening' a very difficult case so that nothing will go wrong for them. This is too serious of a situation to mess up. They need a case strong enough for conviction. If he happens to be prominent with money, that is even more challenging. He would have the means to challenge this extensively.

 

[Kickoff61]

I could see witholding color if they were in the first stages of gathering tips, but after 3 months I'd say if they are releasing that is was an dark SUV and they had a color in mind, they would release that too at this stage.
I think that tip was rather vague to be honest, and again with the traffic flow on that road, how many of those 1000+ tips came from those travelers passing by. 5? Out of those 5, how many said it was dark blue, and how many said dark gray, or black. And out of those 5, how many guessed the time and were off by a half hour and really saw an unmarked State Police cruiser? I am not saying it was, but, I am far from convinced that it wasn't.

I do think 1,000 tips (before the SUV report) is a large number of tips for what the area is said to be. That leaves the possibility of many tips re: other areas in town, not just BSR. In the beginning they were looking for any information at all, not just to do with vehicle on BSR.

 

[Kickoff61]

I just watched on FB
Bob Ward FOX25 News's live video.
November 3 ·

Within the first minute, Bob says that VM was expected to take the train back to NY.

I cannot imagine a young lady riding on a bus for almost four hours on Fri to visit her mother and again on Sunday to go back to NYC twice a month. Taking the train makes more sense to me. I believe this reporter, Bob Ward.

In the live report, BW shows images from the crime scene and describes the burn pit (his words). The burn area stretches over a larger than I expected.

https://www.facebook.com/fox25news/videos/10154353097608122/?hc_ref=SEARCH

I do believe it still appears to be a fire to get rid of evidence and not spot wounds prior to her death, going by reports and photos.