MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #6

[Kickoff61]

That was not just a small flame or just on parts of her, from those photos.

 

[Rocky1]

I have MA. BC/BS and I can literally go anyplace in the country. Providers can be out of network even in the state you hold the insurance.
I will bet that google offers a good medical insurance plan and that she could have continued to see her own doctors in MA. as long as they like any other providers were in-network.

Many major nationwide network insurance carriers offer a , or even some PPO policies that are usable in any state. Some don't even require a primary care physician. It wouldn't surprise me if google offered that type of plan, and it wouldn't surprise me if VM wanted to keep her same primary care physician in Ma.

 

[Rocky1]

Anyone could mail back the envelope and many people's DNA would be on it. I don't believe it is that simple. This has to be done by standards that hold up in court for a trial and conviction.

I think a judge would reason and think it's more likely that the perp mailed the envelope rather than his sister. Then a warrant to force a DNA sample would be granted, and if it matched, then it would hold up in court.

 

[Rocky1]

Yes, and actually his DNA must have been all around that fire area, just from sweating.

Could very well be.
We know the police logs from that time were confiscated by LE. Not sure about the Fire logs.
So let's say for conversation sake that the fire dept was called out as soon as the body was found, and she was burning. Tough call to say if they would put water on her and destroy evidence. \
I don't think the fire was still going, myself, and they collected the evidence needed. and when the logs said the "FD was called to assist the police" around 11, I think they hosed down the area, and that may be why Bob Ward thought around the fire pit was mud JMO The mud may have just been from the rain we had a few days later, not sure.

 

[Rocky1]

He could have thought the fire was going to get rid of everything and not spread too far with the dirt around or what BW called a fire pit.

True, but I don't think he cared if the entire woods burned or not. Sociopaths don't care about much of anything.
I think as BW mentioned, that he set her on fire and got away as fast as he could.

 

[Rocky1]

That was not just a small flame or just on parts of her, from those photos.

Exactly, a little more than just a torch, a cigarette, a bic lighter itself, or as was mentioned before, a taser.

 

[Cem75]

One thing I really disagree on in the Bob Ward video is the idea that the only way she would have been killed by someone she knows is if they had done it in NYC. And saying that it can't be somone who knew her or had some grievance....because they would have done it in NYC.

I'm sorry I know these people are professional but that some seriously holey logic.....if someone from NYC had a grievance then yes they'd likely kill her in NYC and not track her to Princeton.....but if someone from back home had a grievance....getting out of the house for a few hours is a lot easier to cover then taking off to New York City to commit the crime.

I mean to me that's just obvious...I don't get the logic that if the perp was known to her he would have killed her in NYC....this only holds true if he was also from NYC...but it's totally off base if he's living near Princeton.

I think his comment was in the context that it was likely a crime of opportunity or a totally random example of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I do see where you are coming from though.

Another random thought: that web page on Facebook under her name but registered as a male user still weirds me out. Someone into gaming, etc. i wonder if there is some Pokemon Go link in this whole thing, given the gaming profile of the fake profile on Facebook. Can users track eack other via GPS with Pokemon Go, or would that stupid game bring random strangers to Princeton?

 

[Kickoff61]

Something is clearly hanging this up. With many tips from a remote area and their focus on the area, etc If they are onto someone in the area, it would tell me, he has put a wrench in things somehow.

 

[Kickoff61]

Something doesn't seem right, about all this.

 

[Madeleine74]

I think a judge would reason and think it's more likely that the perp mailed the envelope rather than his sister. Then a warrant to force a DNA sample would be granted, and if it matched, then it would hold up in court.

No Rocky1, that's not how it works. There has to be a chain of custody maintained, which means LE has to be able to directly see the suspect, see the item being handled, collect the item directly and properly (not send it through the postal service), sign the various paperwork that goes with an item to be tested, and follow the procedures to get the item to the lab. Each step has to be followed or any decent defense attorney can get an item thrown out of court.

Then in court to establish foundation for the item to come in to evidence, the officer(s) who witnessed perp, item, and collected it have to testify to each thing they did.

 

[Madeleine74]

I watched the Bob Ward segment. Thanks for posting the link to that!

He talks about the opinions from a profiler, that it's more likely this was a crime of opportunity, with someone who is very familiar with the area, knew about that spot coming off that road to utilize it as they did. I agree with the assessment -- perp was looking for his victim and VM became the chosen one because she was out running that day at the time he was in the area as well. "Crime of Opportunity" where he knew he wanted to attack but perhaps had not selected who it would be until he did.

The profiler suggested that someone who knew VM and had a grudge or reason to kill her wouldn't have had to go to Princeton to do it -- they could have gotten to her in NYC or wherever else she hung out. The fact the crime occurred in Princeton, combined with where she was found, implies a person very familiar with that area in general or that spot in particular, which the casual driver going past would not pay attention to or necessarily know about it. The profiler suggested it could be someone who lives there or knows someone in the area that brings them to that area enough to be familiar with it.

 

[liz b.]

What if he had a juvie record for assaulting females ? Would LE still have his DNA ? Or are juvenile records sealed or expunged at age 18 ? Because I just don't think this was his first rodeo. jmo If he is a local, it could well be that he was home for the summer. hence LE saying that he "had access" to the SUV { probably belonged to his parents, or another family member). He could have watched VM running all summer. perhaps he had even approached her before. By now he will be back at school. Without help from the family in this hypothetical scenario, what can LE really do ?

But some murderers do follow their victms away from their everyday lives...especially if they have killed before in the victim's location. They do it to confuse LE, by creating more than one jurisdiction. jmo

 

[Rocky1]

No Rocky1, that's not how it works. There has to be a chain of custody maintained, which means LE has to be able to directly see the suspect, see the item being handled, collect the item directly and properly (not send it through the postal service), sign the various paperwork that goes with an item to be tested, and follow the procedures to get the item to the lab. Each step has to be followed or any decent defense attorney can get an item thrown out of court.

Then in court to establish foundation for the item to come in to evidence, the officer(s) who witnessed perp, item, and collected it have to testify to each thing they did.

I agree with everything you say.. with the second DNA test ordered by the warrant.
To test the first DNA sample used to get the warrant in the first place, all the judge needs is probable cause, meaning it's more likely than not that the DNA belongs to him.
There was one case, I forget which, where LE followed a guy around, and gathered a discarded coffee cup used for chewing tobacco from a trash container. Even though there were several other coffee cups in the container, LE was able to get a warrant, and that chain of evidence was broken because there were other cups in the container.
Here's a link that I just found.
Scroll down and read paragraph 4.

https://www.legalgenealogist.com/2015/02/08/privacy-the-police-and-dna/

 

[Madeleine74]

The profiler opined the perp probably was involved in lower level type criminal behaviors and this may have been his first murder, which he fantasized about doing, which may explain why they don't have his DNA in a database for a match. The perp was not successful at obscuring his DNA because his victim did fight back and they allegedly found DNA on VM (where all I don't know). So the burning he did didn't work to his advantage quite as he'd hoped.

His DNA is now in a database...Bob Ward said what LE really needs is someone who knows this guy to put 2 + 2 together, remember they saw him with scratches back in August, remember him lying and/or away for awhile or some strange behavior they might have noticed but brushed aside, and pick up the phone and report it, even if they're not sure it's 'him.' Ward said better that LE be allowed to do their job and investigate a potential POI and the caller of the tip doesn't have to do anything, they don't even have to identify themselves.

 

[Rocky1]

The profiler opined the perp probably was involved in lower level type criminal behaviors and this may have been his first murder, which he fantasized about doing, which may explain why they don't have his DNA in a database for a match. The perp was not successful at obscuring his DNA because his victim did fight back and they allegedly found DNA on VM (where all I don't know). So the burning he did didn't work to his advantage quite as he'd hoped.

His DNA is now in a database...Bob Ward said what LE really needs is someone who knows this guy to put 2 + 2 together, remember they saw him with scratches back in August, remember him lying and/or away for awhile or some strange behavior they might have noticed but brushed aside, and pick up the phone and report it, even if they're not sure it's 'him.' Ward said better that LE be allowed to do their job and investigate a potential POI and the caller of the tip doesn't have to do anything, they don't even have to identify themselves.

I am far from an FBI profiler, but I have thought along the lines of this one since the beginning, with the exception that if he held a grudge he would have committed the ,murder in NY. If he was from Ma and he held a grudge, I think he would have killed her here.
I think he is young, first kill, so no DNA in the system, local, knew the area, knew the path.
Crime of opportunity, meaning not that he was looking for a victim and VM was his chosen one, but more that VM was his chosen victim, and he was looking for her that day, just not knowing if she'd be out jogging due to the heat, but was out and when he saw her, decided to strike.
The burning didn't work to his advantage because I think he lit the fire then took off, and didn't hang around long enough to see that the fire went out.

 

[The Farm]

The thing that keeps coming to my mind is, if LE "has his number", then why spend so much time and money on a DNA dragnet? There are many easier ways they can get his DNA. They could send him something in the mail saying he won a free trip for example, and all he has to do is reply. Then they can get the DNA off of the envelope. I can think of many ways that are less expensive and less time consuming.To me, they don't seem to be zeroed in on anyone.
I could be wrong too.

I said they "might" have his number meaning maybe. As a possibility.
I agree that they seem to not be zeroed in on much from what we can see.

 

[Evey]

After watching the video from Bob Ward, posted here earlier and seeing what he called the fire pit, it is hard to imagine only 3 areas of her body burned, unless they meant those were areas most burned. I suppose if he lit those 3 areas to get the fire going throughout. But it does clearly appear to be a scene of a fire. Not just injuries. Which appears to be attempt to get rid of DNA or everything.

Burning her all makes more sense and a fire pit sounds as if he dug an area out first. I don't get why they said she was strangled but now don't mention it

 

[Evey]

Well all that would be needed to start a fire in those dry conditions in the trees with sticks around would be lighter or matches. I am not sure why people were so sure about a 'torch' as that is just speculation with no reports of such. I think they mentioned marks on the trees, but the trees were near the fire pit as Bob Ward called it, in his photos and could simply be from the fire.

True I'm not expert and as long as I have cardboard and paper and twigs abd a lighter and maybe fire starter I'm set

 

[Evey]

Just throwing this out as an idea...but what if he bound her with her own clothing and then lit the clothing and hair on fire.

Also looking at the area he chose...he knew that fire would either burn out or it was out before you left.

Adding; running clothes are usually synthetic and synthetic material can often create a big but relatively quick flame before melting...maybe it could explain some markings?

All very true. Cause he had to either kill her super fast tie her up or knock her out so using her own clothes is smart and burning them to remove his DNA evidence or prints

 

[Evey]

Just throwing this out as an idea...but what if he bound her with her own clothing and then lit the clothing and hair on fire.

Also looking at the area he chose...he knew that fire would either burn out or it was out before you left.

Adding; running clothes are usually synthetic and synthetic material can often create a big but relatively quick flame before melting...maybe it could explain some markings?

And the closer to his home the more he'd want a controlled fire he could not burn down the forest andhis home with. Almost sounds like he may have fire knowledge somehow(as in not your typical type)