MA - Vanessa Marcotte, 27, murdered, Princeton, 7 Aug 2016 #6

[ThinkHard]

The ping at 2:25 is one of the reasons I think something like this is possible.

It's also one of the reasons I think she might have been in his car willingly at some point. If she got in and something happened and then he brings the body back there....and drives away and as he does realizes her phone isn't still in his car and gets rid of it as fast as he can.

 

[Evey]

I've read VM website several times now and still have not found where the quote is they talk about a possible secondary crime scene...could you tell me where on the website this is?

I don't know for sure there is one. I guess my opinion would be there would be one unless the SUV was able to back down that road and hide the car and then he had some way to pounce because to me running up the slope to jump her would be harder to do but I could easily see a neighboring home having killed her on the site. It would explain why he's being so ballsy. As far as the store goes could she have left to run some errand and they assumed it meant the store? Or did she for sure say leaving to get a drink because that could mean anything like coffee alcohol etc but they're assuming it means before her run. But I feel like she would just bring a water bottle or get a Gatorade after or have them on her since she ran the day before from what I read someone said. With such a small town I guess I could see why she would be going to the store but does the town they originally lived in have stores or coffee spots etc? Leominster or whatever it's called

 

[Evey]

The ping at 2:25 is one of the reasons I think something like this is possible.

It's also one of the reasons I think she might have been in his car willingly at some point. If she got in and something happened and then he brings the body back there....and drives away and as he does realizes her phone isn't still in his car and gets rid of it as fast as he can.

Yea that's why I think it was pinged to me I can't decide if it was willingly or not but feel he didn't realize he had it then tossed it. I wonder if her purse was missing that would say she wasn't on a run and he had her purse still.

 

[Evey]

How do we know they don't have prints? And exactly what would he be leaving prints on in the woods?

I don't think they would have gotten them off her body, and as far as we know her belonging either weren't there or burned up.

So what would they be pulling prints from?

And say they did pull them from somewhere...just because we haven't heard this doesn't mean it's not in police knowledge. They could have the and they don't match anyone...or there could just be no real good place to lift prints from in that crime scene.

My thought is the shoe that was partially burned. If he didn't have them on though it's a good reason to try to burn the stuff but if they have them and haven't released it yet then he must not be in he system but why tell us the DNA was found and not in it but not fingerprints was how i was thinking

 

[Evey]

Hannah Graham actually took a good month to find...the reason she was found was because of vulture sightings...but even at that they'd didn't check it out at the first report.

She was also found behind a home in a dried up creek bed...it was out there but still bear land markers like the house.

Poor Morgan was in a field though and didn't get found until early spring by a farmer.

I don't believe dogs to found HG...but once they got a location they could have brought cadaver dogs in to search the woods behind the house....but it's not like dogs led them to that house. By the time she was found she was only bones.

With this case the only thing I read about dogs was joe her dad was out hunting for her and it was confusing the dogs but forget what article said it but it didn't help me to know what kinds dogs they used so I just figure they searched the road when they got to the carte path they likely went down it. I wonder if they had to ask the property owner permission to go on the road?

 

[ThinkHard]

Someone had posted a quote talking about this topic supposedly from VM's webpage.

I've been all over that website and cannot find where they discuss this....I was just asking if someone could show me where this was discussed on her homepage.

 

[ThinkHard]

Leominster is more like a small city then a town. It's big and has nice parts and not so nice parts. There would be lots of stores...but that trip would take longer and I think her parents would notice a time difference of driving to the town center and driving to Leominster.

I wonder though if she headed out to get a drink or whatever...somehow ran into someone by chance, spoke face to face and agreed to meet up in a bit...meaning no paper trail, no digital footprint.

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't think she had her purse. Wether she went on a run or was meeting someone...she still left her house that day as if she was going running and most people don't take their purse with them for that.

 

[ThinkHard]

They never said they found DNA. They announced it was a male, likely with scratches. The deduction of course being they know this because male DNA was under her nails.

Police haven't given us a check list of their evidence and they won't. They have no reason too.

Telling us he's male and had scratches however might jolt someone's memory.

Announcing they have fingerprints doesn't do anything as far as the public and tips.

 

[ThinkHard]

They used scent dogs. That's how they found VM.

Family scents can be similar and her dads was throwing off the tracking dogs.

 

[Rocky1]

There is a lot of course we do not know for sure and we are speculating. Of course that goes without saying.

But I think the most realistic explaination is that her parents where the ones who said she had gone out to get a drink around noon...how else would the store employee come up with noon?

It's not like they just came in and said, we thought she might have been in here at some point...they had a specific time they thought she was in there and that info came from someone....and it's very unlikely that someone mixed up a noon errand in a car, with a 2:25 ping after setting out on a run and uncover this ping part at a time they were likely becoming worried about her.

It's unlikely they were worried about her at noon. And if she came home in btw, they may not have thought to mention the store till later because she disappeared after returning from that errand so they probably didn't think that errand had anything to do with it and didn't think to mention it when first reporting VM.

It's more likely as they were searching for her, someone sat the parents down and I had them go through every step of her day. And this the noon errand came up and they went to check there around 7.

stepping back and looking at this I really do not believe there was confusion and I do not believe the errand or noon can't out of no where or came out of confusion.

And I really do not feel we should be so quick to dismiss this....I think it's an angle we should be willing to explore fully....is it speculation yes....but so is every other theory proposed to date....for example you have zero proof he was in a bike....LE keeps saying SUV ... but you still feel strongly about a bike....I don't see it but I still think it's an angle worth exploring even though it's based completely on speculation.

So I think when we look at this piece we need to be willing to explore it. It doesn't do us good to just dismiss pieces like an SUV and a noon errand because they do not fit out profile of the case.

I think it would be beneficial to explore it as an angle rather then just shoot it down and claim it's completely insignificant.

If the store employee was working at noon, he/she would have known it was around noon.
I agree that LE wouldn't have just gone in and said we think she would have been here at some point.
I know one of the first things that I would have asked is "where are the cams around here?" The Mountain Side, being a store along one of her jogging paths would have been my first stop, having no clue where she was at that time.
They may have went in, showing an employee her picture, and asked if anyone saw her, and an employee may have said "Yes I saw her, she was here at 12 Oclock, buying a drink."
I am sure they did have the parents sit down, and take them through every step of her day. That would have been one of the first things, I would think. And I am not saying that's not the reason they went there, I am saying that it it's possible that it is not.
I don't think it was confusion either. Checking out cams along her route would be procedure.
I'm all out for exploring every angle. As I said in the past, although there are many scenarios any one could be true at this point. I am very open minded to any thoughts.
If you can get me past the "secret lover" leaving no electronic footprint by cell phone and email both, never mentioned once to any of vanessas' close friends, or co workers, never once seen with her by anyone, and never once gave her a gift that she told anyone about, I'll be right behind you.
The reason I ask, is because he would have been the 4th thing that LE would have checked out, after inner family, neighborhood cams, and any neighbor that lived anywhere close to the crime scene, and I'd be willing to bet on day one, her cell phone records were summoned.
Did they both have burner phones, where she carried two phones around with her? If so you have to get me past no electronic footprint on her p/c or cell phone. We don't know if LE has her phone or not, but, even if they don't, I think it's fair to say that her employer pulled all the stops and found that information quick.
I can't say for sure if the employees went over the video at the Mountain Side, but I'd bet my house that LE took those with them before that happened, or at least went through them before the employees did, and maybe FM can tell us more.

 

[Rocky1]

Hannah Graham actually took a good month to find...the reason she was found was because of vulture sightings...but even at that they'd didn't check it out at the first report.

She was also found behind a home in a dried up creek bed...it was out there but still bear land markers like the house.

Poor Morgan was in a field though and didn't get found until early spring by a farmer.

I don't believe dogs to found HG...but once they got a location they could have brought cadaver dogs in to search the woods behind the house....but it's not like dogs led them to that house. By the time she was found she was only bones.

Yes, a month, but with hundreds of square miles searched by both search parties, and private citizens, I think they did well. The first thing the man that saw the vultures thought of was Chief Longo, and Hannah Graham. You got to admit he kept her in the public eye.
My post about the dogs was in response to Cems, and after I posted that, I looked at it and thought it may sound related to HG. Sorry about the mix up.

 

[ThinkHard]

If the store employee was working at noon, he/she would have known it was around noon.
I agree that LE wouldn't have just gone in and said we think she would have been here at some point.
I know one of the first things that I would have asked is "where are the cams around here?" The Mountain Side, being a store along one of her jogging paths would have been my first stop, having no clue where she was at that time.
They may have went in, showing an employee her picture, and asked if anyone saw her, and an employee may have said "Yes I saw her, she was here at 12 Oclock, buying a drink."
I am sure they did have the parents sit down, and take them through every step of her day. That would have been one of the first things, I would think. And I am not saying that's not the reason they went there, I am saying that it it's possible that it is not.
I don't think it was confusion either. Checking out cams along her route would be procedure.
I'm all out for exploring every angle. As I said in the past, although there are many scenarios any one could be true at this point. I am very open minded to any thoughts.
If you can get me past the "secret lover" leaving no electronic footprint by cell phone and email both, never mentioned once to any of vanessas' close friends, or co workers, never once seen with her by anyone, and never once gave her a gift that she told anyone about, I'll be right behind you.
The reason I ask, is because he would have been the 4th thing that LE would have checked out, after inner family, neighborhood cams, and any neighbor that lived anywhere close to the crime scene, and I'd be willing to bet on day one, her cell phone records were summoned.
Did they both have burner phones, where she carried two phones around with her? If so you have to get me past no electronic footprint on her p/c or cell phone. We don't know if LE has her phone or not, but, even if they don't, I think it's fair to say that her employer pulled all the stops and found that information quick.
I can't say for sure if the employees went over the video at the Mountain Side, but I'd bet my house that LE took those with them before that happened, or at least went through them before the employees did, and maybe FM can tell us more.

I apologize but I am confused?....LE went to the store at about 7pm on 8/7 to ask if she was seen there at noon.....but why does that mean the employee wpuld have to know it was around noon? My understanding is that police came in there at 7 and said we be,uneven this girl was in here around noon..... But without them telling him how else would he know that if she never went in the store that day

It doesn't make sense that an employee would say yes she was in Here about noon...because articles that have mentioned it have repeatedly said the employee they asked said he didn't recall seeing her....so we know he stated he didn't....so I don't think we can't assume he said he did.

First paragraph from link I posted the other day when the noon info was being asked: http://www.telegram.com/news/20160808/unimaginable-act-sets-princeton-on-edge

PRINCETON - At the Mountainside Market on Hubbardston Road (Route 62), Jacob J. Brisbois, who works behind the deli counter serving drinks and food, said police stopped in around 7:15 Sunday night. He said police believed Vanessa Marcotte had been at the market around noon for a drink, but Mr. Brisbois said he didn't remember the woman.

 

[Rocky1]

I apologize but I am confused?....LE went to the store at about 7pm on 8/7 to ask if she was seen there at noon.....but why does that mean the employee wpuld have to know it was around noon? My understanding is that police came in there at 7 and said we be,uneven this girl was in here around noon..... But without them telling him how else would he know that if she never went in the store that day

It doesn't make sense that an employee would say yes she was in Here about noon...because articles that have mentioned it have repeatedly said the employee they asked said he didn't recall seeing her....so we know he stated he didn't....so I don't think we can't assume he said he did.

First paragraph from link I posted the other day when the noon info was being asked:

PRINCETON - At the Mountainside Market on Hubbardston Road (Route 62), Jacob J. Brisbois, who works behind the deli counter serving drinks and food, said police stopped in around 7:15 Sunday night. He said police believed Vanessa Marcotte had been at the market around noon for a drink, but Mr. Brisbois said he didn't remember the woman.

The link never said that LE came in and said they believe this girl was here at noon. What it said was that the guy behind the deli counter said that police believe that she was there. It may have been the person behind the regular counter that said they saw her. The story was posted a day later in the telegram, so I am sure the shift had changed by then, and maybe the guy behind the deli didn't know that the person behind the regular counter told LE it may have been her.
I've never been in the Mountain Side, so I am not sure how many counters they have, or how many employees.
If they only have one employee, and the same person runs both counters, if they have two, Then I think it's fair to say the information didn't come from there, but rather her Moms. If they have a few employees and a few counters, then it's possible the information came from there.
And we still don't know for sure that she wasn't there, right?

http://www.telegram.com/news/20160808/unimaginable-act-sets-princeton-on-edge

 

[ThinkHard]

I don't know about the electric footprint stuff but I think it's possible, and I also think it's possible they have some info like that but just can't connect it to someone yet.

I also think it's possible to hang out and just go places were you won't be seen, and I think it's possible to hang out with someone and not tell anyone about it, and I certainly don't think he would have ever given her any gifts. I've been in that spot before. So yes it's probably possible....especially when you know something is "bad for you", you often don't tell your closest friends to avoid their judgement, at least in my experience in my 20's. And I was a good girl with an ivy education, and a NYC job.

However more realistically I don't think it would even have to be something like a secret long term affair. This could be a friend of a friend, maybe someone she hadn't seen in a while, had run into over the summer might out with friends in Worcester.

It could be maybe they hooked up during the summer and it was casual (I don't mean she would have slept with him).....just perhaps maybe in the past there was a little chemistry and then when he saw her again something rekindled.

If he is the sociopath we think, he could be very charming after all.

But perhaps he wanted it to continue and she didn't.

Or perhaps he was just rolling by and decided to stop and talk to her. Maybe he lives in that town or grew up there and was headed to his parents house.

Maybe when they talked something flipped and it got violent. What if he wasn't married back in the day, but is now and didn't tell her that. She's since found out and feels awful for maybe hooking up with him earlier that summer and she's pissed that he would put her in that position.

Maybe when he tried to talk to her this is what it was about...so they walked into the woods so they wouldn't be seen, or sat in his car somewhere else.

Something like this could explain why she didn't tell anyone about it. Her friends would know she hooked up with this guy earlier or at least know she had been around him.....but I doubt they would know if they talked that day.....they might know she was pissed about it.....but also NEVER expect this guys involvement in order to put 2 and 2 together. Because perhaps he's too much on the periphery to be considered.

But just say for a second this scenario holds any truth (of course it's just speculation).....so he's in the woods with a dead girl he just got into a physical altercation with....even if it was "accidental" as in she fell and hit her head or snapped her neck as examples.....he can't call LE.....because if he's married how does he explain even explain being there with her in the first place to his wife?

So he does what he can with what he has and he tries to cover his tracks as best he can. Maybe he goes to his parents house in town to clean up before returning home to his wife.

 

[ThinkHard]

The link never said that LE came in and said they believe this girl was here at noon. What it said was that the guy behind the deli counter said that police believe that she was there. It may have been the person behind the regular counter that said they saw her. The story was posted a day later in the telegram, so I am sure the shift had changed by then, and maybe the guy behind the deli didn't know that the person behind the regular counter told LE it may have been her.
I've never been in the Mountain Side, so I am not sure how many counters they have, or how many employees.
If they only have one employee, and the same person runs both counters, if they have two, Then I think it's fair to say the information didn't come from there, but rather her Moms. If they have a few employees and a few counters, then it's possible the information came from there.
And we still don't know for sure that she wasn't there, right?

http://www.telegram.com/news/20160808/unimaginable-act-sets-princeton-on-edge

Respectfully but it feels like you are twisting this up in circles when it seems pretty straight forward. The market is small...there is a deli counter to order sandwiches but it attaches to the counter to pay, meaning it's still all one area.

You can hear what people are ordering at the deli counter as you pay for your coffee. There is also maybe 3/4 employees in there at a time.

If one employee reported seeing her, and one employee didn't....those employees surely would have spoken to each other before that article was published....and they wouldn't have posted the quote from the guy who didn't remember seeing her over the one who did.

I think it's very reasonable to assume a few things: her family is the one who said she went to the store at noon, and eye witnesses do not recall her being there.

Whether that means she wasn't there at all, and the cameras confirm this to me is the assumption. The other two aspects just seem like straight forward and reasonable deductions. Jmo

 

[Kickoff61]

I agree with Rocky1 that info. can grow wings. I have tried to keep my speculation on the very few facts known and the photos of the scene. For instance: examples:

Fact: The guardrail is along the road and ends at the path. Speculation: I thought it would be difficult for a vehicle to approach her at precise timing of guardrail ending , unless already sitting there.

Fact: The scene photos appear to be a dirt area where there was a fire. Speculation: The fire was used to try to rid of DNA left behind due to the struggle (*not just incidental fire injuries to her). Further speculation from that: If not in the system someone in in the area would be more concerned of connection to be made.

Fact: Her phone was active connection described as ping (from possible AP) made in Restaurant area at 2:25. Speculation: It is possible she was still with active phone at that time and not killed immediately just after 1PM. (no exact time of death reported) Just a 1 - 3 time frame.

Fact: A neighbor driveway is very close across from the path. Speculation: It would be very difficult for all this to happen with vehicle sitting there the entire time to be seen. By either someone coming out of driveway or traffic, etc. Further speculation: The vehicle could have been there "part time" for some reason , such as returning to get items and do the fire or of course the other theory more challenged here, that she was brought 'to' that location from somewhere else.

Fact: She was an avid runner and used to be a tutor in MA. Speculation: She could have known the person from her tutoring activity or running activities.

Fact: She regularly ran on weekends visiting her mother. Speculation: Someone in the area could have seen her, met her, spoke with her , or watched her on those runs living in the area or even been exercising as well at any of those times.

Fact: A report of doing advanced testing with DNA to come up with a 'facial'. Speculated assumption: They have his DNA.

Hopefully the authorities will make headway soon and there will be much more information known with an arrest. There may have been a few other facts known, that I went with speculating. But it is easy for speculation to grow and then there be speculation of all sorts about things not even stemming from the few facts known or any facts basically All JMO.

 

[Rocky1]

I don't know about the electric footprint stuff but I think it's possible, and I also think it's possible they have some info like that but just can't connect it to someone yet.

I also think it's possible to hang out and just go places were you won't be seen, and I think it's possible to hang out with someone and not tell anyone about it, and I certainly don't think he would have ever given her any gifts. I've been in that spot before. So yes it's probably possible....especially when you know something is "bad for you", you often don't tell your closest friends to avoid their judgement, at least in my experience in my 20's. And I was a good girl with an ivy education, and a NYC job.

However more realistically I don't think it would even have to be something like a secret long term affair. This could be a friend of a friend, maybe someone she hadn't seen in a while, had run into over the summer might out with friends in Worcester.

It could be maybe they hooked up during the summer and it was casual (I don't mean she would have slept with him).....just perhaps maybe in the past there was a little chemistry and then when he saw her again something rekindled.

If he is the sociopath we think, he could be very charming after all.

But perhaps he wanted it to continue and she didn't.

Or perhaps he was just rolling by and decided to stop and talk to her. Maybe he lives in that town or grew up there and was headed to his parents house.

Maybe when they talked something flipped and it got violent. What if he wasn't married back in the day, but is now and didn't tell her that. She's since found out and feels awful for maybe hooking up with him earlier that summer and she's pissed that he would put her in that position.

Maybe when he tried to talk to her this is what it was about...so they walked into the woods so they wouldn't be heard, or sat in his car somewhere else.

Something like this could explain why she didn't tell anyone about it. Her friends would know she hooked up with this guy earlier or at least know she had been around him.....but I doubt they would know if they talked that day.....they might know she was pissed about it.....but also NEVER expect this guys involvement in order to put 2 and 2 together. Because perhaps he's too much on the periphery to be considered.

But just say for a second this scenario holds any truth (of course it's just speculation).....so he's in the woods with a dead girl he just got into a physical altercation with....even if it was "accidental" as in she fell and hit her head or snapped her neck as examples.....he can't call LE.....because if he's married how does he explain even explain being there with her in the first place to his wife?

So he does what he can with what he has and he tries to cover his tracks as best he can. Maybe he goes to his parents house in town to clean up before returning home to his wife.

Your scenario explains why people get murdered every day. Rage, deception, one wants in and the other wants out etc. And you are right, people can hang out and not be seen, and it's possible to not tell anyone about it. Maybe he didn't buy her gifts.
How did they communicate?
How would they know when to meet?
I doubt they have anyone in mind, but if they do, why the DNA dragnet? Even if they have stopped in the past month (not sure if they have or not) They would have tracked that guy down through phone/ email ISP records within a week, and if he drove or had access to an SUV, they'd know that by now too, and I'd guess a DNA sample even if he refused.
Your scenario sounds perfect, except for three things. The first is the timeline and how they could have driven elsewhere first to talk, second, if they did why he brought her back there, and the third is, the electronic footprint.. I'm still not past that.

 

[Rocky1]

Respectfully but it feels like you are twisting this up in circles when it seems pretty straight forward. The market is small...there is a deli counter to order sandwiches but it attaches to the counter to pay, meaning it's still all one area.

You can hear what people are ordering at the deli counter as you pay for your coffee. There is also maybe 3/4 employees in there at a time.

If one employee reported seeing her, and one employee didn't....those employees surely would have spoken to each other before that article was published....and they wouldn't have posted the quote from the guy who didn't remember seeing her over the one who did.

I think it's very reasonable to assume a few things: her family is the one who said she went to the store at noon, and eye witnesses do not recall her being there.

Whether that means she wasn't there at all, and the cameras confirm this to me is the assumption. The other two aspects just seem like straight forward and reasonable deductions. Jmo

I was very clear that I had never been in the Mountain Side., do not know the layout, nor how many employees they have there.
I was very clear that it is possible the that information came from the family.
So what in your mind am I "twisting up in circles" I notice that you use that term a lot, so maybe you can explain?

 

[Kickoff61]

Your scenario explains why people get murdered every day. Rage, deception, one wants in and the other wants out etc. And you are right, people can hang out and not be seen, and it's possible to not tell anyone about it. Maybe he didn't buy her gifts.
How did they communicate?
How would they know when to meet?
I doubt they have anyone in mind, but if they do, why the DNA dragnet? Even if they have stopped in the past month (not sure if they have or not) They would have tracked that guy down through phone/ email ISP records within a week, and if he drove or had access to an SUV, they'd know that by now too, and I'd guess a DNA sample even if he refused.
Your scenario sounds perfect, except for three things. The first is the timeline and how they could have driven elsewhere first to talk, second, if they did why he brought her back there, and the third is, the electronic footprint.. I'm still not past that.

That is exactly my point. What facts known lead to speculation of secret relationship?