Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

[haden]

I can't get over this itchy thought that Maddie was hidden somewhere in the park by someone who has specific knowledge of a good hiding location (and yes, the area under 5A must be hollow and pretty well sealed, but I really don't know if it is accessible in any way). If Maddie was hidden there and she died, it could explain some 'smell of death' slipping through e.g. via heating pipes through the floors into the apartment.

In that strange extreme scenario spirit, my eye fell on this picture that shows a gray hatch in the wall of the entrance of the Ocean Club area.

But that hatch has apparently been painted over and is now much more difficult to spot (could also be the photo angle) and looks more integrated in the wall. See here:

[\secret voice on] Is that hatch/door still in use or is it now permanently sealed (it looks like it)? What could be behind it and how much room is there to hide any(body)?[\secret voice off]

The dogs would find her. If alive the tracker dogs, if dead the cadaver dogs.
IMO she left the area very soon after went missing.

That is Ocean Club reception.

Just across the road and a little bit down is infamous car park where the trailer dogs lost their trail.

 

[Fierljepper]

I just repeat the imo simplest scenario one more time (slightly enhanced):

0) A single ill-intended/disgruntled/****ed-up Abductor/Tractorman waits for the right moment sitting in his/her car at the car park opposite of the OC entrance. See picture below for his viewpoint. It really is a perfect spot, although I would park my car slightly to the left from where the photo was taken so that he could even see who was entering/exiting the patio door that evening.

1) He sees the McCanns entering the OC ~20:30, but he cannot move yet since all other T9 friends are dripping in shortly after that. So, he decides to move after GM has done his checks and also finished his 3-minute chat with JW. He might even wait for JT to also come back and then make the move.

2) Fastest and safest way to get into 5A: up the stairs and through the unclosed patio door. Safest to close the door behind you to make things look normal from the outside (possibly even from the restaurant) and to avoid early detection when somebody checks in.

3) Safest way out and to get back to your car: via the front door (no key needed when opened from the inside, I guess, but always key needed when entering from the outside), no traces, turn left and go around the block. Pretty good shelter on that footpath covered by trees/plants and the least chance of bumping into anybody of the "T9-checkers" heads on. This route is supported by the freshest scent trace picked up 4 times by the sniffer dogs on May 4th and 8th and the trace was lost in the car park on all occasions (assuming the ground sniffing dogs also pick up scent even when a person is carried and little body particles land on the ground).

4) Open the window/shutter as a back-up escape plan to avoid ending up trapped in the children's room (or to stronger suggest a kidnap to damage the park's reputation). The escape plan was however not needed and it was save to leave via the front door. Hence an open window/shutter was left and therefore also no traces of burglary or lichen/sills damages were found. It leaves exactly the state that was observed by KM at 10PM who obviously immediately thought that the kidnapped her. Note: he picked Maddie and not one of the twins. Why? Maybe she might have woken up and make some noise when he opened the window/shutter too loudly, hence he grabbed her to minimize the risk of early detection and a potentially risky witness in hind sight.

5) He wore gloves, so no traces left (and if he did, they got polluted anyway by so many folk running around before 5A was properly sealed by PJ).

That's all you need.

 

[Redgoblin]

I just repeat the imo simplest scenario one more time (slightly enhanced):

0) A single ill-intended/disgruntled/****ed-up Abductor/Tractorman waits for the right moment sitting in his/her car at the car park opposite of the OC entrance. See picture below for his viewpoint. It really is a perfect spot, although I would park my car slightly to the left from where the photo was taken so that he could even see who was entering/exiting the patio door that evening.

1) He sees the McCanns entering the OC ~20:30, but he cannot move yet since all other T9 friends are dripping in shortly after that. So, he decides to move after GM has done his checks and also finished his 3-minute chat with JW. He might even wait for JT to also come back and then make the move.

2) Fastest and safest way to get into 5A: up the stairs and through the unclosed patio door. Safest to close the door behind you to make things look normal from the outside (possibly even from the restaurant) and to avoid early detection when somebody checks in.

3) Safest way out and to get back to your car: via the front door (no key needed when opened from the inside, I guess, but always key needed when entering from the outside), no traces, turn left and go around the block. Pretty good shelter on that footpath covered by trees/plants and the least chance of bumping into anybody of the "T9-checkers" heads on. This route is supported by the freshest scent trace picked up 4 times by the sniffer dogs on May 4th and 8th and the trace was lost in the car park on all occasions (assuming the ground sniffing dogs also pick up scent even when a person is carried and little body particles land on the ground).

4) Open the window/shutter as a back-up escape plan to avoid ending up trapped in the children's room (or to stronger suggest a kidnap to damage the park's reputation). The escape plan was however not needed and it was save to leave via the front door. Hence an open window/shutter was left and therefore also no traces of burglary or lichen/sills damages were found. It leaves exactly the state that was observed by KM at 10PM who obviously immediately thought that the kidnapped her. Note: he picked Maddie and not one of the twins. Why? Maybe she might have woken up and make some noise when he opened the window/shutter too loudly, hence he grabbed her to minimize the risk of early detection and a potentially risky witness in hind sight.

5) He wore gloves, so no traces left (and if he did, they got polluted anyway by so many folk running around before 5A was properly sealed by PJ).

That's all you need.

Why go all the way around the block, its a much longer route. He could of gone out the front door and turned right and walked down the hill towards the car park.

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[haden]

I just repeat the imo simplest scenario one more time (slightly enhanced):

0) A single ill-intended/disgruntled/****ed-up Abductor/Tractorman waits for the right moment sitting in his/her car at the car park opposite of the OC entrance. See picture below for his viewpoint. It really is a perfect spot, although I would park my car slightly to the left from where the photo was taken so that he could even see who was entering/exiting the patio door that evening.

1) He sees the McCanns entering the OC ~20:30, but he cannot move yet since all other T9 friends are dripping in shortly after that. So, he decides to move after GM has done his checks and also finished his 3-minute chat with JW. He might even wait for JT to also come back and then make the move.

2) Fastest and safest way to get into 5A: up the stairs and through the unclosed patio door. Safest to close the door behind you to make things look normal from the outside (possibly even from the restaurant) and to avoid early detection when somebody checks in.

3) Safest way out and to get back to your car: via the front door (no key needed when opened from the inside, I guess, but always key needed when entering from the outside), no traces, turn left and go around the block. Pretty good shelter on that footpath covered by trees/plants and the least chance of bumping into anybody of the "T9-checkers" heads on. This route is supported by the freshest scent trace picked up 4 times by the sniffer dogs on May 4th and 8th and the trace was lost in the car park on all occasions (assuming the ground sniffing dogs also pick up scent even when a person is carried and little body particles land on the ground).

4) Open the window/shutter as a back-up escape plan to avoid ending up trapped in the children's room (or to stronger suggest a kidnap to damage the park's reputation). The escape plan was however not needed and it was save to leave via the front door. Hence an open window/shutter was left and therefore also no traces of burglary or lichen/sills damages were found. It leaves exactly the state that was observed by KM at 10PM who obviously immediately thought that the kidnapped her. Note: he picked Maddie and not one of the twins. Why? Maybe she might have woken up and make some noise when he opened the window/shutter too loudly, hence he grabbed her to minimize the risk of early detection and a potentially risky witness in hind sight.

5) He wore gloves, so no traces left (and if he did, they got polluted anyway by so many folk running around before 5A was properly sealed by PJ).

That's all you need.

Maybe.
But the questions are:
1. Why?
2. Why Madeleine?
3. What was his intention?
4. What happened later?
5. If he had family, etc, how come they never noticed?
6. How come he never reacted to a million pound reward?
and most important:
7. If the left the area with Madeleine this would definitely be recorded on his mobile phone.. the mobile phone towers on all sides of exits from PDL would pick up who entered their areas at around that time. They can even pick up which phones were switched off and then suddenly on.
It is a village, it is not like 100s people who left the area that night and never came back.
Or did he come back the next day? What happened to Madeleine in this case?

I think the mobile phone search holds the key.. if carefully examined!i
We can try guessing 'his' motives till Xmas but there must be a clue somewhere of 'his/her' motives, also to 'his/her' profile.

Maybe someone even tried to give a 'careful' tip at some point. These tips also need to be re-examined.

 

[haden]

Why go all the way around the block, its a much longer route. He could of gone out the front door and turned right and walked down the hill towards the car park.

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Maybe risking of bumping into someone from McCanns & group of friends?

 

[haden]

Back to the case files, this is one of the statements that I find quite interesting.
This lady was an 'one day visitor' to the block where the 5A is. She is the niece of Mrs Finn who lives above.

During the day on the balcony she's seen someone 'visiting' the 5A

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

It is quite long interview and it is interesting.

Also from Mrs Finn interview

She states that on the day of the 1st May 2007, when she was at home alone, at approximately 22H30 she heard a child cry, and that due the tone of the crying seemed to be a young child and not a baby of two years of age or younger.

Apart from the crying that continued for approximately one hour and fifteen minutes, and which got louder and more expressive, the child shouted "Daddy, Daddy", the witness had no doubt that the noise came from the floor below. At about 23H45, an hour and fifteen minutes after the crying began, she heard the parents arrive, she did not see them, but she heard the patio doors open, she was quite worried as the crying had gone on for more than an hour and had gradually got worse.
is
When questioned, she said that she did not know the cause of the crying, perhaps a nightmare or another destabilising factor.

As soon as the parents entered the child stopped crying.

That night she contacted a friend called XXXX XXXX, who also lives in Praia da Luz, after 23H00, telling her about the situation, who was not surprised at the childs crying.

She did not have anything to report for the 2nd May, because she was only home at night.

Lets forget for now how bad parents the McCanns are for leaving their children crying.. it is something else I wanted to point at.

Mrs Finn called her friend to report the crying. Maybe she even mentioned it to her niece, maybe the Mrs Finns friend told someone else. Maybe the friend spoke in front of someone else too.
What I wanted to say is that actually quite few people in the area who possibly knew about the children being left alone. Locals plus the OC staff.
This was also on my mind, it is kind of a small village, the residents know each other. At one point of my life I lived in a town of 30 000 people and we all knew each other. How about 1000 to 3000 like PDL.. they must know what each other are eating for lunch!
If this was a local person they would know who. But do we always know people around us?
Ocean Club itself was kind of separated from the village, with its residents, workers, visitors.. and of course the foreign staff of OC was from god knows where.. plus the local workers who also worked there and who had the permanent residence in areas around.
Also the ownership of the apartments as a part of OC was questionable.
In first days of the search not all 'empty' apartments were checked. Because OC had keys only for few which they either owned or managed.
But not all apartments in the resort were managed by the OC, some like Mrs Fenns apartment were private.It would be quite hard to figure out all of the owners of the apartments, and who had guests or tourists in them because some rent privately, some even secretly to avoid paying tax, some rent over internet when only the key is handed to the visitor.
If the visitors did not have the mobile phone it is impossible to know who was there.. unless every single person in PDL was questioned and were telling the truth. Some even wouldn't because they would be questioned by the tax office about renting their apartments.
And the owners are all around the world.
Tricky, eh?

 

[hoshizora]

If TractorMan did it (which I find very unlikely as I said but anyway), he would've left some sort of evidence like clothing fibres or hair.

If only his phone was in the area, that's not good enough for me as many phones would be in the area. Does anyone know if he was an ex-employee, or a disgruntled ex-employee?

In all honesty I think the abductor is more likely than TractorMan and I don't think it was an abductor at all.

 

[Cherwell]

If he left the area with Madeleine this would definitely be recorded on his mobile phone.. the mobile phone towers on all sides of exits from PDL would pick up who entered their areas at around that time. They can even pick up which phones were switched off and then suddenly on.

He may not have been carrying a phone. It's not compulsory!

 

[ATasteOfHoney]

Just moo but that place really gives me the creeps. It's like some antiquated 1980's place that someone tried to spit-shine into something fancy. Gross.

Spooky....

 

[haden]

Something really interesting I noticed tonight.

The Daily Star has named the tractor victim guy. There are two people in the file under the OC staff with the same surname.
One lady who states she is a kitchen worker and she never works on Thursdays ( the day Madeleine went misisng) and she was ill for the day of abduction and few next days so wasn't able to come to work and knows nothing, heard the news from the media. She lives in Lagos.

The other person with the same surname is one of the two maintenance guys who came to fix the blind of the McCanns apartment on the May 1. Also mentioned recently in the media.

I wonder if they are all related?

 

[Jmoose]

Well phrased. This is exactly my struggle with those religious camps that have intellectually entrenched themselves into the "McCann's did this" (or any other scenario for that matter). These boards have all the attributes of a sect and any alternative opinion gets immediately bashed or quickly moderated out (via bans). This strange phenomenon doesn't only happen in this case, you see it all across the boards discussing these cases.

It is really beyond me how one can justify for oneself making the weirdest, irrational leaps to be able to continue to explain the McCann's or T9's involvement (which could be true, I don't rule it out!), and let any other potential alternative scenario immediately bounce off on the self-imposed blinders. Or the forums are populated by people with a need to be part of a group and are simply too afraid to lose social status by embracing new thoughts under the pressure of some self proclaimed experts. I actually find this phenomenon pretty scary.

Some psychologist should analyze this one day, e.g. I found it already funny to observe the quite nervous responses to the TractorMan news yesterday. In those camps there is obviously no face-saver left, if the McCann story would be falsified. Some immediately jumped into weird mental escapes like: "suppose he did it, then he is still innocent, because the McCann's planted the body on his land" (literally!) and some immediately started to disclaim themselves by saying things like "suppose for a ridiculous moment, I mean not really, but in an extremely crazy situation... ...that this ridiculous scenario would be true, then the McCann's and T9 have to be very stupid by loading this incredible amount of suspicion on themselves". Holy cow! Still found a way to blame the McCann's EVEN if they are proven innocent.

Anyway, my apologies for this rant, but it does make me feel a bit better :blushing: And please don't take my venting wrong: I do NOT rule out the McCann's or T9's involvement, I just do believe it is highly improbable they were involved. I just got a bit scared by reading those sectarian forums with followers who are not allowed to think for themselves anymore...

Well, but there are people here who may think that it's ridiculous that the McCanns are suspects, and yet, on other threads, you might see the very same people calling for additional investigation of ones who could not possibly have been a party to a disappearance by virtue of iron clad alibis...the notion of thinking for oneself seems to be somewhat subjective. Each one of us has our own particular insight into whichever case that draws us in-can we help it if we find like-minded people here? Who knows what happened to Madeleine? It may not be probable that her parents are culpable, but it is, at least, possible.

 

[haden]

Re this behaviour, long time ago in 2007 I found a blog on internet, lots of grammar errors but I found it to be the best description of what is happening re Madeleine's case at that time.. the same can be said 6 years later..

Dec 21, 2007 What is an Mfer ? ( note: I think the MF was a Mirror Forum famous for Madeleine posts)
Forget sex, forget Space Girls, Northern Rock and Diana and slimming.
Madeleine is our new drug.
And there is a huge demand for this drug now, a new type of a wide public addiction which needs feeding.

The case of Madeleine McCann in our media has caused all possible kinds of culminations, shocks, lies and trues, half lies and half trues but no matter what mixture we get, we have to have it, we need it.

The internet message boards posters on Madeleine forums are the worst kinds of addicts.
On several of the message boards they work round the clock, 24 hours a day they post the news articles, they discuss them in little details, not a simple comma in a news article about Madeleine is going to be missed, why the comma in this place, it is spooky, some would say.

If there is no news, they get nervous and they panic. Something must be happening right now so there is no news.
This gets them particularly excited.
Maybe she has been found and the truth has been hidden from us?
Maybe this is the biggest ever hoax in the world? She is actually in England and has never been in Portugal?
Maybe this is a government experiment to research the public opinion?
Has she ever existed?
This is a heaven for all kinds of conspiracy theories, if they are no facts they invent them.

The sleuthing never stops.

Was there a Tapas 10 or even Tapas 11 as one of the hairdressers told one of the forum poster?
Was there the Exeter connection?

Back in May all forums and message boards were full of curious posters wanting to know the truth only about Madeleine McCann and most of them only praying for her safe return.

As the time passed the posters opinion parted into two main groups which are now known as PROS and ANTIS.

Antis are the people who constantly bash the parents of Madeleine McCann, they are sure the parents 'did it' and are furious for them to get the lynch, they deserve and to be punished.

They do not only bash Madeleine parents, they bash and discredit everyone who is helping them, the Madeleine fund donors, the journalists who write positive things about the parents, their spokesman, their friends, relatives, every single witness who thought he or she saw Madeleine or anyone really who thinks that Madeleine is not dead or so called PROS
On internet these people are known mostly as MF-ers. Or Mirror Forum posters.
The main news source they believe in are Portuguese tabloids so they get their daily portion of tabloids translated every morning.
And their story goes on, similar to never ending real life soap operas.

The real facts about disappearance of Madeleine McCann remain unknown.

The only real fact is that little Madeleine went missing from her holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, Portugal on May 3rd 2007 while her parents were having a dinner at the resort's Tapas Bar restaurant and she was never to be seen again.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Re this behaviour, long time ago in 2007 I found a blog on internet, lots of grammar errors but I found it to be the best description of what is happening re Madeleine's case at that time.. the same can be said 6 years later..

Do you believe that's why you're here?

I'm here because I find crime, psychology, sociology and the justice system fascinating, interesting and relevant.
I love the justice system when it works. I like logic and reasoning and statistics too.


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[haden]

Do you believe that's why you're here?

I'm here because I find crime, psychology, sociology and the justice system fascinating, interesting and relevant.
I love the justice system when it works. I like logic and reasoning and statistics too.


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I am not sure.. I get stuck with some cases and about these cases I know every little detail, while some other cases make me completely indifferent.
I think I like maths, challenge of unresolved maths tasks, finding solutions..and also I react to injustice.. for example at work people come to me and complain, and then I see them sad and I get furious and I go to speak for them.. I often put myself in a trouble while doing this, while trying to repair some injustice.. I kind of become unpopular, almost crazy in being too brave and speaking out what others would never say..I am not sure if this is good or bad, but I am too old now to change :floorlaugh:

 

[Linda7NJ]

I am not sure.. I get stuck with some cases and about these cases I know every little detail, while some other cases make me completely indifferent.
I think I like maths, challenge of unresolved maths tasks, finding solutions..and also I react to injustice.. for example at work people come to me and complain, and then I see them sad and I get furious and I go to speak for them.. I often put myself in a trouble while doing this, while trying to repair some injustice.. I kind of become unpopular, almost crazy in being too brave and speaking out what others would never say..I am not sure if this is good or bad, but I am too old now to change :floorlaugh:

Well frankly, I love people that are direct and cut to the chase and honest in their feelings and passion. I enjoy sarcasm and that tends to get me in trouble. Even if ya are wrong! J/k lol
I thought sarcasm was the socially acceptable way to express oneself instead of being super blunt and very rude. But apparently some folks can't handle it, or don't get it.


Some cases grab my attention too more than others.
I steer clear of cases where I feel I can't be objective. Heileigh Cummings for example. I have a soft spot for Misty...
Then there is the Ramsey case that's intrigued me for 15 years ....since day one. I can't let it go.

It's so frustrating to me when the justice system fails, or when law enforcement can't make an arrest. This case bothers me because I feel strongly that Madeleine deserved so much better. It's so wrong that she's gone and someone knows exactly what happened. Here we are six years later and in reality we are no closer to finding her.


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[Cherwell]

Something really interesting I noticed tonight.

The Daily Star has named the tractor victim guy. There are two people in the file under the OC staff with the same surname.
One lady who states she is a kitchen worker and she never works on Thursdays ( the day Madeleine went misisng) and she was ill for the day of abduction and few next days so wasn't able to come to work and knows nothing, heard the news from the media. She lives in Lagos.

The other person with the same surname is one of the two maintenance guys who came to fix the blind of the McCanns apartment on the May 1. Also mentioned recently in the media.

I wonder if they are all related?

It's a very common Portuguese surname.

 

[hoshizora]

I have to agree. Even though I don't believe the intruder theory, it's really interesting to see what other people who believe it say and believe. It would be boring if we all had the same opinion.

I am only here because I love/d Disappeared and wanted to read more about the cases on the show.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Re this behaviour, long time ago in 2007 I found a blog on internet, lots of grammar errors but I found it to be the best description of what is happening re Madeleine's case at that time.. the same can be said 6 years later..

That is a good article. The writer's reference to judging the Mccanns and the posters who defend them is the same now as it was then.

 

[CHERIE.T]

Against whom? His employer? Or the McCanns? If he was vengeful there are much easier ways to get back at your employer than planning an abduction don't you think?

Abducting the employer's child would be pretty powerful.
Just wondering what do you see as an easier way to get back at the employer? :moo:

 

[goldengirl57]

I can see a disgruntled employee deciding to try to ruin the business by making it seem unsafe to families. However, that would IMO take a whole level of premeditation and obsession that makes it sound very unlikely... for example, any other child could have been taken and there would have been other and less risky opportunities to do so IMO.

I don't thing the Cape Verdian guy had anything to do with it either.

I put a link up about this but no one seems to have seen it so i will do it again.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/10/maddie-case-pj-has-already-carried-out.html

This article is transcribed so we can understand it. The most important part is this:

A Judiciary Police team has not yet been constituted to work in the process since it was reopened by the Public Ministry, that is, the official PJ investigation to the Maddie case has not yet been resumed.

I believe this ex gruntled employee is the same one that someone sent an email to our Prince Charles about. If all they have on him is a ping off his phone in the location of PDL then for gods sake......he only lived 15 minutes from PDL. I live 15 minutes from my local town so shoot me.

Also i have read from a good source that the widow of this guy is totally freaking out and is now suing everyone who has defamed her husbands name.

...................................