Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread #27

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  • #901
My neighbour, a single mum took her 7 year old boy to the very same complex 18 months after the Maddy 'abduction' I asked her if she was worried, she replied 'No, why would I ?' She smiled slightly and carried on digging her garden.
 
  • #902
The truth must be somewhere in the middle and the scenario also must be as simple as possible. A scenario like:

* Maddie woke up and left the apartment to search for her parents and got lost or met a stranger etc. But then why were the window and shutter suddenly open. Doesn't make sense.

McCanns say they were open. The LE members found it closed, also Dianne Webster stated, that when she was in the apartment after the alarm raised by Kate and she was trying if the shutters can be open from the outside by hand, the window was closed. The other thing, if the window was open, Kate would find it pout not because the curtains whooshing, but because of a chilly draft. That night was cold, just look at the pictures, how warm everyone was dressed.

* Either GM or MO accidentally killed Maddie or found her dead (like a via an overdose or MO picking her up and dropping her) and enacted an abduction. But then where is the body and how could they have ever disposed of her in the very limited time they had? Simply doesn't add up.

Maddie was last seen alive by an independent witness around 5 pm. I know that there is Payne's statement, but I never found it credible.
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

In italics the excerpts from Payne's testimony. Bolded by me.

Err I think it was already open, I think it was already open. Err you know, as I say, I walked up there, Kate was you know I say looking very relaxed and err I say a comment to her I said well crikey it's early, early for them to be getting ready you know for bed, as I say she said ah no, I've had such a good, you know such a good day and afternoon err so you know, and Gerry's just obviously finishing off playing tennis and err so you know hopefully try and get them down and as I say we were just, you know I, I know, it does sound bizarre but I just looked at the three of them and I couldn't, you know they were just so well presented and so clean and immaculate it was, you know I was, and you know they just looked such healthy children, err you know, there's, there's you know nothing that normally

Have you ever seen a woman, who spent something like two hours, taking care of the three lively toddlers, bathing them and preparing to bed, who looked after that relaxed? I haven't. It's hard work even, if the kids are perfectly behaving. So there is the first evidence, that mr. Payne tries a little too hard to paint an idyllic picture.

Second thing. He mentions how healthy all the children looked, yet Kate stated that Maddie was very pale and tired that evening. Did he really see Maddie that evening?

As I say the, from the children point of view predominantly I can remember the, you know, white, but I couldn't say exactly what they were wearing. Err''

Yet Maddie was wearing the pyjamas, that was predominantly PINK. Again, did Payne see Maddie that evening? Or maybe he just tried to create the idylic picture of the beautiful, happy family with relaxed mom and three super healthy looking angels in white, to convince everyone that at this moment everything was nice and peachy, Maddie was alive and Kate was superparent?

If Maddie died shortly after she was picked from creche, McCanns would have plentyful of time to concoct a cover-up plan and find a place to hide her. Apartment 5A was thoroughly searched, but if there really was a Tapas Pact, Maddie could be hidden in the apartment of one of the other couples, where nobody would look for her. As awful as it sounds, you don't need much space to storage such a tiny body.

* There was a burglar or more burglars accessing the apartment via the window (note: two previous burglaries took place also around dinner time in April in the same block that Madeleine disappeared from. In both the April burglaries entry was gained via a window. That is quite a remarkable precedent !).

In McCanns apartment, as you can see on the PJ pictures, there was a chair and a bed, under the window. A burglar, coming through that window, without leaving a trace on both pieces of furniture (and without tripping over them) would have to be a ghost. Or Houdini.

Maddie caught them in the act and started to scream so they had to silence her but accidentally killed her.

Actually if the window was the point of entry, the twins would be first to wake up, as the burglar would have to squeeze between the cots to even get to Maddie's bed (and the door).

But then why not just leave the body behind and get out of the apartment asap?

Very good question.

Why take the child with you, did they leave traceable DNA or her and is that the reason she had to disappear? Were they maybe caught in the act by MO as well when he did his inspection. Did she bite in one of their hands when they were holding her to prevent her from screaming?

A burglar at work would wear gloves. Maddie was a four year old kid, not a pitbull, so I don't think she would be able to bit through the glove. And a burglar caught in the act by the child that young, in the darkness, would rather escape, than to try silencing the kid. Maddie wouldn't be able to see too much details in the darkness.

Were they afraid she would raise alarm to soon when they'd led her go and hence they decided to take her to a saver distance and leave her there?

That's why the professional burlglars make sure, that there are no people in the place they want to burgle, before they start anything.

In some way I like this simple burglary scenario since it clearly happened recently before, they also did it at dinner time, it was block 5 as well and they gained access via the window. It also happened 14 days after the previous event, hence for burglars a good interval for the dust to get settled and strike again. Also. if anyone of the 3 children would have woken up from this burglary, it must have been Maddie, so it also answers the question why Maddie and not one of the twins was taken.

Why it must have been Maddie? On the way between the window and the door there were two cots, the kids in them allegadly light sleepers. So why it must be Maddie?

I can imagine Maddie getting out of bed and catching him in the act e.g. going through her parents stuff in their bedroom.

The McCanns stuff in their bedroom was intact. No burglar was going through it that evening.

And I could even conceive of this happening at the same time when MO came in through the patio and the burglar was in the parents bed room (i.e. he was trapped), hence he grabbed Maddie and silenced her (maybe to harsh because she still made a sound or by holding her hand across her face to tight). So, he was extremely lucky that MO only spotted the children's bedroom door being wider open that GM left it

I have a mighty problem with that door. PJ pictures show it being held by one of the cots, pinned to the wall. The technics had to move the cot, to be able to check the door. So how could be closed, or partially closed?


and that he didn't spot Maddie not being in her bed or the window being open.

Window was opposite the door. The night was cold. If the window was open at that moment, how comes MO did not see it (there would be the light coming from the street) and did not notice a chilly draft waltzing around the apartment?
 
  • #903
Funny that the only PREJUDICES I saw was written by posters defending the McCanns, even to the point of calling the PJ fat cigar swilling pork chops...not very nice either.

Also there were NO deficiencies in the initial investigation please link me where there were any?

I have a close friend who lives in Portugal she has for years, and never once had a burglary or come to that any other problem whilst living there.

Apparently we are never much farther then 6 feet away from rats, so I expect the same can be said of pedophiles, you just never know who is living next door to you or even how many professionals you might see in your life have a penchant for children sadly.

Well what did REALLY HAPPEN. I have never once seen any posts regarding a an abduction. I have written one, but I have never seen anyone come forward and suggest what ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

Oh and as to mantra they left the children alone, well hello, if they hadnt the child would still be with the parents and her siblings.

What makes me cross is right behind them in the Tapas is where the night creche was located. They could have easily left the children there, had their meal and drinks, and then took the kids home.

I will NEVER FORGIVE THEM ever, never for leaving her, and even more so after they LEFT HER the next night after crying for her parents as CONFIRMED by the mouth of the mother.

No never....so sue me.

Do you believe they are waiting for your forgiveness?
 
  • #904
(...) lots of good arguments (...)

Thanks Hexe. I can follow your logic.

Curious to learn what your theory now is, after (I guess) being a long time knowledgeable poster on the case.

It sounds you are on the track of GM and KM already knowing in the afternoon (and maybe even earlier than that) that Maddie had died and they enacted a kidnap to conceal a terrible failure or act (like drugs) as doctors. Is your theory then that all the others of the Tapas group are innocent? I struggle to come to terms with such a scenario (but happily convinced otherwise). I mean, even if a man can convince his wife to do such a totally irresponsible thing, then also convincing a fellow doctor (you just met) to collude on such a concocted (and criminal) story, is just beyond my imagination. Also, all reports about their behaviors (including the tennis friend) that night state that GM and MM were behaving very normal that evening. How on earth could that happen? Of course if the scenario is that they consciously planned to end Maddie's life for a long time (because f.i. they knew she was terribly and incurably ill and euthanasia laws prohibited then from preventing future suffering of their child. And also that they had fully come to terms with that and decided to push through with the help some friends and enact a kidnap in a holiday resort in Portugal, -hope you're still with me at this point-, even then I would expect some serious emotional response after it actually happened. But hey, then you could of course make it simpler again and reason that it was only GM with one of his friends who did it without KM (who then saw her at 8:30 last) knowing about it at all. E.g. GM and MO, where GM did the act and MO moved the body.
 
  • #905
I've been to Italy, a couple of times since the Knox case. Never did I say I'd never GO there.

Portugal may be another matter, although I never said I would not go there either. I said, I would not move there, and I am looking about, seriously, for another place to live.

Reading comprehension and honesty in quoting is important in these cases. there is nothing to be gained by twisting words. I believe we all want the truth, at least I hope so.

My reading comprehension is just fine. I believe by stating you would not move there and in your own words "Portugal may be another matter" one assumes there is a reason and because we are discussing this case implies there is something about the country you do no trust.

Move to Canada. :loveyou:
 
  • #906
Do you believe they are waiting for your forgiveness?

Heck no!
If innocent.....They couldn't care less about the safety and well being of their own children and never expressed sincere remorse or normal guilty feelings for having left them all alone.

They most certainly don't care that many good people will never forgive them. Their number one focus remains IMO not being accused and facing consequences.

I've found in cases where a person must contort their own instincts, and make all sorts of outlandish excuses for ridiculous behavior... Something is very wrong. And in 99% of cases...they are indeed guilty. IMO






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free
 
  • #907
My reading comprehension is just fine. I believe by stating you would not move there and in your own words "Portugal may be another matter" one assumes there is a reason and because we are discussing this case implies there is something about the country you do no trust.

Move to Canada. :loveyou:

There's plenty about Portugal I do not trust, after this case - they brought it on themselves, IMO.

I used to live right across the St Lawrence Seaway from Canada - who can afford to live in that frigid clime?

As for reading comprehension, it took two posts to...aw, never mind. Carry on.
 
  • #908
There's plenty about Portugal I do not trust, after this case - they brought it on themselves, IMO.

I used to live right across the St Lawrence Seaway from Canada - who can afford to live in that frigid clime?

As for reading comprehension, it took two posts to...aw, never mind. Carry on.

Over 33 million. :seeya:
 
  • #909
Heck no!
If innocent.....They couldn't care less about the safety and well being of their own children and never expressed sincere remorse or normal guilty feelings for having left them all alone.

They most certainly don't care that many good people will never forgive them. Their number one focus remains IMO not being accused and facing consequences.

I've found in cases where a person must contort their own instincts, and make all sorts of outlandish excuses for ridiculous behavior... Something is very wrong. And in 99% of cases...they are indeed guilty. IMO






Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

Do they still have the fund going?
 
  • #910
  • #911
Thanks Hexe. I can follow your logic.

Curious to learn what your theory now is, after (I guess) being a long time knowledgeable poster on the case.

It sounds you are on the track of GM and KM already knowing in the afternoon (and maybe even earlier than that) that Maddie had died and they enacted a kidnap to conceal a terrible failure or act (like drugs) as doctors. Is your theory then that all the others of the Tapas group are innocent?

I believe Dianne Webster is innocent. As for the rest of Tapas Group I believe strongly they are hiding something. Most probable theory is, in my eyes, that something happened after Maddie was picked from the creche. Maybe Kate was angry and irritable, left with her children alone, while Gerry went to play tenis. Or was about to go and play.

She hit Maddie in the anger, maybe rupturing her spleen or liver. Gerry, underestimating the injury, left the apartment. Maddie's condition was worsening, she had an internal bleeding (hence her mother's "she was very pale and tired" recollection and Payne's picture of perfectly healthy children), maybe she even vomited with blood at some point (the blood traces behind the couch). Gerry was a little bit concerned about Maddie's health, so he send Payne to check on the situation.

At some moment they knew Maddie was dying, or dead, and they know that if they went to hospital at this point they would be fried, both for causing Maddie's death and for not administering her any help. That's when the Tapas Pact comes to life. I suppose there was something McCans knew and could use to blackmail their friends, you know "if we are going down, you are going down with us" stuff. Maybe the Tapas Group was sedating the kids (I can imagine McCans telling the others, that Maddie died due to overdose of sedatives) or they did something else that could actually end up their stellar doctor careers, if come to the light.

So Tapas Group (Dianne Webster excluded) agreed to cover up for McCanns and play their parts in the fake kidnaping show. Someone agreed to hide Maddie's body in their apartment, Tanner and her partnr helped with cleaning (that's why they told a story abut their daughter being sick and vomitting, but no sheets dirty with vomits went to laundry from their apartment) someone else, maybe Matthew Oldfield, was supposed to jemmy the window, but he failed (maybe because he saw someone on the street?) and somehow this information did not get to the McCanns, hence the stories abut the open window, which was in fact closed.

After some time Maddie's body ended up in the freezer and it stayed there for a bit, then in went to the Scenic's trunk and now is hidden somewhere in the portuguese interior.

All of course IMO, MOO and pure speculation.
 
  • #912
Heck no!
If innocent.....They couldn't care less about the safety and well being of their own children and never expressed sincere remorse or normal guilty feelings for having left them all alone.

They most certainly don't care that many good people will never forgive them. Their number one focus remains IMO not being accused and facing consequences.

I've found in cases where a person must contort their own instincts, and make all sorts of outlandish excuses for ridiculous behavior... Something is very wrong. And in 99% of cases...they are indeed guilty. IMO

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk - now Free

Those are interesting stats, I would like to read more. Do you a a LINK to them?
 
  • #913
I guess you'll stay holed up in your home. Good grief. It irks me when
people say Ill never go to Portugal or Italy (Amanda Knox case) because of people's perception that they're bad people and their justice system is corrupt.


Millions of people travel to these beautiful countries and nothing ever happens.

Anyway just had to get that off my chest.


This case mirrors the Ramsey case in so many ways. I believe in the truth and one day it will be revealed.

I agree. The McCanns acted carelessly and irresponsibly by leaving their children alone like that and when one is supposedly abducted the time and financial burden of the initial investigation falls on the Portuguese people who provided investigation services. Now the people and their country are misaligned because the McCanns acted irresponsibly.

I'll take Portugal. Love the country and its culture. "Blame the police" is the oldest excuse in the world.
 
  • #914
I believe Dianne Webster is innocent. As for the rest of Tapas Group I believe strongly they are hiding something. Most probable theory is, in my eyes, that something happened after Maddie was picked from the creche. Maybe Kate was angry and irritable, left with her children alone, while Gerry went to play tenis. Or was about to go and play.

She hit Maddie in the anger, maybe rupturing her spleen or liver. Gerry, underestimating the injury, left the apartment. Maddie's condition was worsening, she had an internal bleeding (hence her mother's "she was very pale and tired" recollection and Payne's picture of perfectly healthy children), maybe she even vomited with blood at some point (the blood traces behind the couch). Gerry was a little bit concerned about Maddie's health, so he send Payne to check on the situation.

At some moment they knew Maddie was dying, or dead, and they know that if they went to hospital at this point they would be fried, both for causing Maddie's death and for not administering her any help. That's when the Tapas Pact comes to life. I suppose there was something McCans knew and could use to blackmail their friends, you know "if we are going down, you are going down with us" stuff. Maybe the Tapas Group was sedating the kids (I can imagine McCans telling the others, that Maddie died due to overdose of sedatives) or they did something else that could actually end up their stellar doctor careers, if come to the light.

So Tapas Group (Dianne Webster excluded) agreed to cover up for McCanns and play their parts in the fake kidnaping show. Someone agreed to hide Maddie's body in their apartment, Tanner and her partnr helped with cleaning (that's why they told a story abut their daughter being sick and vomitting, but no sheets dirty with vomits went to laundry from their apartment) someone else, maybe Matthew Oldfield, was supposed to jemmy the window, but he failed (maybe because he saw someone on the street?) and somehow this information did not get to the McCanns, hence the stories abut the open window, which was in fact closed.

After some time Maddie's body ended up in the freezer and it stayed there for a bit, then in went to the Scenic's trunk and now is hidden somewhere in the portuguese interior.

All of course IMO, MOO and pure speculation.

Thanks Hexe. It could have been this way or it could not have been this way. There are simply no hard pieces of evidence that support or falsify such a scenario and if everybody in the Tapas 9 group remain silent, we will never know if your scenario is true.

To share my personal impression as a newbie to this case. The more I read about it, the more I actually get convinced the McCanns are innocent as is the Tapas group (although less certain about all individuals). Just browsed through this new e-book found here http://freepdfhosting.com/9099bef539.pdf and to me it reads as beyond tunnel vision. I find the dominant bias in it unbearable (no balance of view points whatsoever) and I therefore stopped reading it after 5 chapters. I am from the school that scenarios as an abstraction of what really happened must be simple, i.e. scenario's involving less people are more realistic than those which require more people to play a role and shut their faces. Also, scenarios based on verifiable facts, or scenarios that can make new predictions that can be verified, have a much higher chance of passing the scrutiny test, than those that are purely based speculation.

Let's see how the story evolves now that the Portuguese have re-opened the case.
 
  • #915
I personally think it's quite obvious that the police weren't up to standards, especially at the beginning. More and more is coming out now too concerning what they didn't do and should have done. I'm not saying the LE over here in the UK are perfect, because we know that they aren't but I do believe they are a lot more efficient and professional. I get the impression that it's those who want the McCanns to be guilty who can see no wrong with regards to the Portuguese investigation. Also, I thought the same with regards to the Ben Needham investigation, as that was quite shoddy as well. In that case they had complete tunnel vision and couldn't see beyond the Needham family being involved. That's no way to run an investigation into a missing child. I also think that valuable time was wasted on the day of both children's disappearance, which wouldn't have happened here, IMO.
 
  • #916
I believe Dianne Webster is innocent. As for the rest of Tapas Group I believe strongly they are hiding something. Most probable theory is, in my eyes, that something happened after Maddie was picked from the creche. Maybe Kate was angry and irritable, left with her children alone, while Gerry went to play tenis. Or was about to go and play.

She hit Maddie in the anger, maybe rupturing her spleen or liver. Gerry, underestimating the injury, left the apartment. Maddie's condition was worsening, she had an internal bleeding (hence her mother's "she was very pale and tired" recollection and Payne's picture of perfectly healthy children), maybe she even vomited with blood at some point (the blood traces behind the couch). Gerry was a little bit concerned about Maddie's health, so he send Payne to check on the situation.

At some moment they knew Maddie was dying, or dead, and they know that if they went to hospital at this point they would be fried, both for causing Maddie's death and for not administering her any help. That's when the Tapas Pact comes to life. I suppose there was something McCans knew and could use to blackmail their friends, you know "if we are going down, you are going down with us" stuff. Maybe the Tapas Group was sedating the kids (I can imagine McCans telling the others, that Maddie died due to overdose of sedatives) or they did something else that could actually end up their stellar doctor careers, if come to the light.

So Tapas Group (Dianne Webster excluded) agreed to cover up for McCanns and play their parts in the fake kidnaping show. Someone agreed to hide Maddie's body in their apartment, Tanner and her partnr helped with cleaning (that's why they told a story abut their daughter being sick and vomitting, but no sheets dirty with vomits went to laundry from their apartment) someone else, maybe Matthew Oldfield, was supposed to jemmy the window, but he failed (maybe because he saw someone on the street?) and somehow this information did not get to the McCanns, hence the stories abut the open window, which was in fact closed.

After some time Maddie's body ended up in the freezer and it stayed there for a bit, then in went to the Scenic's trunk and now is hidden somewhere in the portuguese interior.

All of course IMO, MOO and pure speculation.

Wow. I think you echoed what I believe happened almost exactly and I have also found Dianne Webster the only believable member of the Tapas 9. Although I think the McCanns set it up by themselves, then told them (Just because Kate's DNA was the only DNA on the window).
 
  • #917
I personally think it's quite obvious that the police weren't up to standards, especially at the beginning. More and more is coming out now too concerning what they didn't do and should have done. I'm not saying the LE over here in the UK are perfect, because we know that they aren't but I do believe they are a lot more efficient and professional. I get the impression that it's those who want the McCanns to be guilty who can see no wrong with regards to the Portuguese investigation. Also, I thought the same with regards to the Ben Needham investigation, as that was quite shoddy as well. In that case they had complete tunnel vision and couldn't see beyond the Needham family being involved. That's no way to run an investigation into a missing child. I also think that valuable time was wasted on the day of both children's disappearance, which wouldn't have happened here, IMO.

They have to investigate the child's family, as statistics say that the perpetrators in this situation are most likely someone the child knows. It's unfortunate, but that's how it is so I don't think they wasted time investigating the parents.

If the parents didn't do it, then that will come out in the investigation and the parents have nothing to worry about. But they need to clear them first before they can move onto other people and the abduction theory is very flimsy. The McCanns made themselves look suspicious, so that's why the police continued to investigate them and I don't think it was a waste of time. I would agree with you that it would be a waste of time if the parents cooperated and they clearly had nothing to do with it and the police continued to push them as the perpetrators, but that is not the case here.
 
  • #918
This is a weird case. It's either an abduction at one extreme end (at least that's what the most hard data points seems to suggest) or it is a pretty complicated collusion between the Tapas 9 to collectively cover up a crime. And I actually can't be really convinced by any of these extremes. The abduction just has a too low probability and no precedences in that area and the second one is just too complex to concoct successfully for such a long period of time.

The truth must be somewhere in the middle and the scenario also must be as simple as possible. A scenario like:

* Maddie woke up and left the apartment to search for her parents and got lost or met a stranger etc. But then why were the window and shutter suddenly open. Doesn't make sense.

* Either GM or MO accidentally killed Maddie or found her dead (like a via an overdose or MO picking her up and dropping her) and enacted an abduction. But then where is the body and how could they have ever disposed of her in the very limited time they had? Simply doesn't add up.

* There was a burglar or more burglars accessing the apartment via the window (note: two previous burglaries took place also around dinner time in April in the same block that Madeleine disappeared from. In both the April burglaries entry was gained via a window. That is quite a remarkable precedent !). Maddie caught them in the act and started to scream so they had to silence her but accidentally killed her. But then why not just leave the body behind and get out of the apartment asap? Why take the child with you, did they leave traceable DNA or her and is that the reason she had to disappear? Were they maybe caught in the act by MO as well when he did his inspection. Did she bite in one of their hands when they were holding her to prevent her from screaming? Were they afraid she would raise alarm to soon when they'd led her go and hence they decided to take her to a saver distance and leave her there?

In some way I like this simple burglary scenario since it clearly happened recently before, they also did it at dinner time, it was block 5 as well and they gained access via the window. It also happened 14 days after the previous event, hence for burglars a good interval for the dust to get settled and strike again. Also. if anyone of the 3 children would have woken up from this burglary, it must have been Maddie, so it also answers the question why Maddie and not one of the twins was taken. But then I still need a good reason for a burglar who is only trying to snatch some quick money/jewelry ending up with the need to take a child with him.

I can imagine Maddie getting out of bed and catching him in the act e.g. going through her parents stuff in their bedroom. And I could even conceive of this happening at the same time when MO came in through the patio and the burglar was in the parents bed room (i.e. he was trapped), hence he grabbed Maddie and silenced her (maybe to harsh because she still made a sound or by holding her hand across her face to tight). So, he was extremely lucky that MO only spotted the children's bedroom door being wider open that GM left it and that he didn't spot Maddie not being in her bed or the window being open. But then again why take her with you? This only makes sense when he accidentally killed her this way and had to enact an abduction and needed to remove all traces from this simple burglary that totally got out of hand.

Thoughts?

My thought has always been, if Maddie interrupted a burglar, the apartment would have been burgaled.

They were not. Everything was just as they left it...except Madeleine.
 
  • #919
Last post of the night. I found this interesting, given what was said about this latest story about Maria and Clarence Mitchell in the last few pages.

Madeline McCann: Police hunt three 'gypsies' seen lurking near holiday apartment

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/madeline-mccann-police-hunt-three-2644559

Police are hunting three men said to be gypsies seen lurking near Madeleine McCann’s holiday apartment before her disappearance, the Sunday People can reveal.
 
  • #920
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