Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 20

[ThoughtFox]

And yes, while all of the sightings of Madeleine are hopefully being investigated.......The sightings are being ridiculed.

Ridiculed because some of us don't believe Madeleine is still alive.

You may think there is no evidence for that, but there was a cadaver scent where Madeleine lived, and on her toy. And one of the British dogs that was used in Portugal has just helped find the body of a child in Jersey, under six inches of concrete.

Spaniel used in the hunt for Madeleine McCann unearths child's remains

So I believe in the abilities of cadaver dogs, even if some of you do not.

Beyond that, what can I say - none of these sightings has been true, and any attempt to "spin" them as real sightings has fallen short of the mark. The people who "see" this child everywhere seem well-meaning for the most part, but they aren't very good witnesses, since all of them have been wrong so far!

Name me one sighting that has come close to being true?

And what about Metodo's claim that Maddie would be home by Christmas because they knew exactly where she was? That was a lie.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

Thanks for the link ThoughtFox. It's great to hear the dog has credentials. I'd trust a dog over CM any day.

 

[colomom]

From Enfants Kidnappes 16th February.

http://www.kidnapping.be/maddie/maddie.html

Scroll down to, "De nouveaux interrogatoires."

"”D'un point de vue médiatique, rien ne semble bouger. Mise à part les derniers rebondissements politico-politiques de l'affaire, la presse restait bien avare d'information sur le dossier. Or l'enquête se poursuit. Des fouilles sont en cours et vont se poursuivre. La PJ est à la recherche du corps de Madeleine puisqu'il ne fait plus aucun doute, pour la police, qu'elle soit décédée. La police recherche activement le deuxième endroit où le corps de Madeleine a été "déé" et où, selon toute vraisemblance, il serait encore. Rappelons que la police connaît parfaitement le premier endroit où le corps de Madeleine fut "entreposé". Ainsi, se basant sur les triangulations des GSM utilisés par les différentes parties en cause dans cette affaire, la police effectue des fouilles à des endroits bien précis. En effet plusieurs étendues considérables de terrain font l'objet de toutes les attentions. La moitié d'entre elles ayant déjà été fouillé. Des barrages entiers ont même été sondés à l'aide d'un sonar. La police semble confiante dans ses recherches et si le corps de la petite est effectivement retrouvé, cela changera considérablement les données de l'affaire.”

The investigation is at a dead end?

From the point of view of the media, nothing appears to be moving. Apart from the latest political twists in the case, the press has been deprived of information on the case. But the investigation continues. The PJ are searching for the body of Madeleine, since there is no longer any doubt, by the police, that she is dead. The police are actively seeking the second place where the body of Madeleine was placed and where, in all likelihood, it remains. Bear in mind that the police are perfectly aware of the first place where Madeleine’s body was stored. Thus, basing this on the GSM triangulations used by different parties involved in this case, the police are conducting excavations at specific locations. In fact, several large tracts of land are the subject of all the attention. Half of them have already been excavated. Entire dams have even been sounded with the aid of sonar. The police seem confident in their searches and if the body of the little girl was actually found, that would considerably change the facts of the case.

 

[christine2448]

From the point of view of the media, nothing appears to be moving. Apart from the latest political twists in the case, the press has been deprived of information on the case. But the investigation continues. The PJ are searching for the body of Madeleine, since there is no longer any doubt, by the police, that she is dead. The police are actively seeking the second place where the body of Madeleine was placed and where, in all likelihood, it remains. Bear in mind that the police are perfectly aware of the first place where Madeleine’s body was stored. Thus, basing this on the GSM triangulations used by different parties involved in this case, the police are conducting excavations at specific locations. In fact, several large tracts of land are the subject of all the attention. Half of them have already been excavated. Entire dams have even been sounded with the aid of sonar. The police seem confident in their searches and if the body of the little girl was actually found, that would considerably change the facts of the case.

For reals?? Who is reporting this? Is this just opinions on a blog some where, or is this a respected source?

 

[colomom]

For reals?? Who is reporting this? Is this just opinions on a blog some where, or is this a respected source?

Well, I guess that would depend on who you talk to Christine.

It is a Belgian website that has been writing about this case for a long time. Apparently, they are an unofficial association dedicated to finding and helping kidnapped and abused children. It does seem that they may have some "inside" information sometimes. I have found no reason to disbelieve them. The things they post can be rather "outrageous" on occasion and they don't always list their sources. It is one of those sites that you should probably take with a grain of salt.

Suffice it to say, they have been around a long time and I have not read anything derogatory about them.

 

[Prickle]

Ridiculed because some of us don't believe Madeleine is still alive.

You may think there is no evidence for that, but there was a cadaver scent where Madeleine lived, and on her toy. And one of the British dogs that was used in Portugal has just helped find the body of a child in Jersey, under six inches of concrete.

Spaniel used in the hunt for Madeleine McCann unearths child's remains

So I believe in the abilities of cadaver dogs, even if some of you do not.

Beyond that, what can I say - none of these sightings has been true, and any attempt to "spin" them as real sightings has fallen short of the mark. The people who "see" this child everywhere seem well-meaning for the most part, but they aren't very good witnesses, since all of them have been wrong so far!

Name me one sighting that has come close to being true?

And what about Metodo's claim that Maddie would be home by Christmas because they knew exactly where she was? That was a lie.

None of those so called sightings were Madeleine ,they were just a waste of time-effort and money especially the lie regarding Madeleine would be home by Christmas....
We just don't know what to believe anymore, well, I don't anyway.

However, I do believe that one of those dogs found something when searching where Maddie lived, these are such wonderful, clever animals that are trained to do just that. I am sure that all will be revealed before long (please God). I do hope so, lets hope that this awful-awful case comes to a conclusion, very soon.

 

[april4sky]

Ridiculed because some of us don't believe Madeleine is still alive.

You may think there is no evidence for that, but there was a cadaver scent where Madeleine lived, and on her toy. And one of the British dogs that was used in Portugal has just helped find the body of a child in Jersey, under six inches of concrete.

Spaniel used in the hunt for Madeleine McCann unearths child's remains

So I believe in the abilities of cadaver dogs, even if some of you do not.

Beyond that, what can I say - none of these sightings has been true, and any attempt to "spin" them as real sightings has fallen short of the mark. The people who "see" this child everywhere seem well-meaning for the most part, but they aren't very good witnesses, since all of them have been wrong so far!

Name me one sighting that has come close to being true?

And what about Metodo's claim that Maddie would be home by Christmas because they knew exactly where she was? That was a lie.

ThoughtFox thats something we can agree on. The sightings of Madeleine are being ridiculed. Ridiculed because some don't believe Madeleine is still alive....:waitasec: None of us know that for sure. And because no sighting has turned out to be Madeleine......Does that mean the searching should stop?

Metodo's claim was down to Metodo's boss...Not the McCanns!!! And I couldn't begin to explain it.

None of us know exactly what the cadaver dogs reacted too. And don't you think the PJ would have confirmed/leaked it by now if it had turned out to be DNA from a dead Madeleine?
They have gone very quiet about this supposed DNA find.

 

[colomom]

ThoughtFox thats something we can agree on. The sightings of Madeleine are being ridiculed. Ridiculed because some don't believe Madeleine is still alive....:waitasec: None of us know that for sure. And because no sighting has turned out to be Madeleine......Does that mean the searching should stop?

Metodo's claim was down to Metodo's boss...Not the McCanns!!! And I couldn't begin to explain it.

None of us know exactly what the cadaver dogs reacted too. And don't you think the PJ would have confirmed/leaked it by now if it had turned out to be DNA from a dead Madeleine?
They have gone very quiet about this supposed DNA find.

April,

I know your post was directed to Thoughtfox but, I just have to ask a couple of questions in response to your post.

I do not know where anyone said the searching should be stopped. Did you actually see a call for an end to searching? "Rolling eyes" at the latest sightings is a far cry from calling for an end to the search.

The cadaver dog did not react to DNA, cadaver dogs react to the chemical signature left by a dead body. Not necessarily actual DNA, such as blood. There were different dogs utilized for different purposes. Eddie is a world-renowned cadaver dog he is know as a 'enhanced' victim recovery dog specialising in detecting buried human blood, bones and flesh. He is absolutely amazing in his abilities. This latest work has him detecting a body from 30 YEARS AGO under 7 INCHES OF CONCRETE (my emphasis). He is so amazing that he is insured for 4.5 million POUNDS (approx. $9 million). From: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=517855&in_page_id=1770

Keela is the DNA dog, she has been trained to track down remains corresponding to microscopic blood traces. She alerted to the wall and floor in the apartment as well as to traces in the hire car. It has been reported that the traces collected from her alerts have been confirmed (by FSS) to be a 100% match to Maddie's DNA. See: http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,23024607-5013933,00.html

I believe that Eddie also alerted to the hire car and when Gerry McCann was shown video of that event he offered reasons why there might have been a "death scent" in the car. Things such as "rotting meat" or "used nappies".

I find it very difficult to consider that a dog insured for $9 million dollars would make that type of error. Furthermore, why offer an explanation for the alert if there was no way that it was possible? If you knew that there was no way on earth that your daughter (deceased) was in that car wouldn't you just respond with shock and denial? Why would you offer an excuse??? You could even say that perhaps another dead body must have been in the car but, with the bodily fluids detected by Keela and hair confirmed to belong to Maddie, that would be a stretch.

It was the combination of the two dogs findings that have been the most damning "evidence" in my mind. I know that this has not been absolutely confirmed as true by LE but, I am adding it to the "Guilty" (VS the "Not Guilty) side of my chart. I honestly believe that these "leaks" are true.

 

[april4sky]

April,
I do not know where anyone said the searching should be stopped. Did you actually see a call for an end to searching? "Rolling eyes" at the latest sightings is a far cry from calling for an end to the search.

The cadaver dog did not react to DNA, cadaver dogs react to the chemical signature left by a dead body. Not necessarily actual DNA, such as blood.

colomom the "Does that mean the searches should stop" was a question. :waitasec: A reasonable question of people who have chosen to ridiclule reported sightings I thought. Wouldn't you?

As to the cadaver dogs, whatever they were reacting to I seriously doubt it was Madeleine's dead body. Experts have been critical of jumping to the conclusion they were reacting to Madeleine's body. And I myself heard Dr Baden on Greta say any hair found in the car that was Madeleine's could be confirmed within hours if it was from a live or dead Madeleine.....The PJ have gone very quiet about confirming/leaking any of this.

Gerry's comment about the dogs findings don't sound particularly strange to me either.....I would probably wonder what they could be reacting to to......Especially if I hadn't done anything wrong.
It was also a hire car so god only knows what has been carried in that car in the past.
And to believe the McCanns were carrying their dead child around with them, in that heat, and with the worlds press watching them....sorry, to my mind its too ludicrious for words.

 

[ThoughtFox]

:waitasec: I never said the searches should stop. It's just we disagree on where and what they are searching for. I agree with the police that they are probably searching for a dead body.

The McCanns tried to blame a cadaver smell on other things, but these dogs are trained to pick up the scent of a dead human body, not chicken bones or dirty diapers.

The good thing about these "sightings" all over the place is that we never have to wait very long for them to be debunked. It has taken about just a few days at the most to find the actual child that was seen and to prove it is not Madeleine.

 

[april4sky]

:waitasec: I never said the searches should stop. It's just we disagree on where and what they are searching for. I agree with the police that they are probably searching for a dead body.

I didn't say you did ThoughtFox...:waitasec:....it was a question? Which still hasn't been answered.

 

[april4sky]

cadaver dog evidence ?

http://internationalrewardscentre.com/index.php?Itemid=2&id=872&option=com_content&task=view

The judge agreed with an analysis of the three dogs' track record by Zapata's defence team that found they were incorrect 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time.
******
And also....

Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?

http://www.slate.com/id/2174177

Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?
Not really—especially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene.

 

[iNTERESTEDWOMAN]

cadaver dog evidence ?

http://internationalrewardscentre.com/index.php?Itemid=2&id=872&option=com_content&task=view

The judge agreed with an analysis of the three dogs' track record by Zapata's defence team that found they were incorrect 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time.
******

I think it is possible that different dogs have different levels of intelligence...my dog is a perfect example of a "intellectually challenged canine". I think comparing these thee blundering pooches to Eddie the wonder dog is like comparing the Metodo 3 to Sherlock Holmes. :silenced:

 

[ThoughtFox]

cadaver dog evidence ?

http://internationalrewardscentre.com/index.php?Itemid=2&id=872&option=com_content&task=view

The judge agreed with an analysis of the three dogs' track record by Zapata's defence team that found they were incorrect 78 per cent, 71 per cent and 62 per cent of the time.
******
And also....

Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?

http://www.slate.com/id/2174177

Can you trust a cadaver dog if there's no cadaver?
Not really—especially if a lot of time has elapsed since the body was removed from the scene.

I'll trust the cadaver dogs until it is proven that Madeleine is alive.

We don't have a body, but we don't have the living child either.

Since the child is still gone, then deductive reasoning tells us that it is the sightings that are probably the red herrings, and not the evidence we already have from the dogs.

 

[gord]

At the end of the day it dosnt really matter - the dogs didnt find a body in Porgtugal - we dont know what they alerted to - we can hazzard a guess - and of course it could be Madelines body - but there isnt a 100% guarentee - dogs have been know to mess up . It changes nothing in this case - The PJ still have to come up with forensic evidence to nail this case , they have to come up with how it was done - how the body was disposed off - where the body is now - how she was killed etc etc . some proof pretty please

The facts that the dogs are in jersey dosnt matter - it is a seperate case with completely different set of circumstances

The police knew roughly where to look - they had underground sonar machines and of course a body -

It does beg the question why the dogs arent back in Portugal - according to some and the belgium site Colomom alluded to - the police know where the body was hidden first - have they had the dogs back there ? Maybe they could check the area ?

Another thing if the PJ KNOW that Maddy is dead - but are just trying to dot the i's and cross the t's - why dont they let other police forces around the world know - save them checking out all these false sightings - they could save everybody a lot of trouble

 

[christine2448]

Another thing if the PJ KNOW that Maddy is dead - but are just trying to dot the i's and cross the t's - why dont they let other police forces around the world know - save them checking out all these false sightings - they could save everybody a lot of trouble

I was thinking this too. I think that report is from a not very reliable source, IMO. I don't believe that all is going on, the searches, etc. I don't think they have a clue....but I could be wrong!

 

[Barnaby]

I have no doubt in my mind that the dogs alerted to Madeleine's blood & cadaver in the apartment & the hire car. To ask me to believe other i.e. it was someone elses blood or cadaver is way too much of a coincidence & in fact farcical!

 

[gord]

I have no doubt in my mind that the dogs alerted to Madeleine's blood & cadaver in the apartment & the hire car. To ask me to believe other i.e. it was someone elses blood or cadaver is way too much of a coincidence & in fact farcical!

I am sorry but convict people of murdering their child we are going to need something slightly more than the sight of two dogs going a bit crazy .

You might find it it farcical - but thank goodness there are laws that actually require some sort of proof before we convict people

These dogs have been known to mess up - they are not 100% . Judges in your own country have thrown out cases where cadaver dogs have been involved

 

[colomom]

http://www.morningstarr.co.uk/forum/mccann-debacle/7000-last-picture-madeleine-fake.html

Consider this.....

 

[txsvicki]

I trust the dogs. Cadaver scent in a rented vehicle and holiday apartment isn't likely especially Madeline's scent was also there in the vehicle.