Madeleine McCann General Discussion Thread No. 20

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  • #301
I think we all need to open our eyes. The possibilities of Madeleine being alive are almost 0. To think otherwise is to fool ourselves. Now, having said that I think every sighting, every clue, everything should be checked. Longer the PJ takes to resolve this case, the longer the perpetrators (in this case AND on my opinion) this child's parents will get away with it.
 
  • #302
I think we all need to open our eyes. The possibilities of Madeleine being alive are almost 0. To think otherwise is to fool ourselves. Now, having said that I think every sighting, every clue, everything should be checked. Longer the PJ takes to resolve this case, the longer the perpetrators (in this case AND on my opinion) this child's parents will get away with it.

Agreed, well said, Sleuth Mom. Every sighting that does not pan out is another bit of evidence. As time passes, we have to ask ourselves: Why can we find so many children who look like Madeleine but are not?

the answer can be one of two things: Maddie is being kept well hidden, by people/person motivated and able to keep her hidden, or Maddie is no longer among the living.

That she's alive and walking around in public I think we will all come to the conclusion, sooner or later, is simply not credible.
 
  • #303
Those cadaver dogs were used before they were brought to Portugal, and the same dogs are finding children's missing bodies even now.

Law Enforcement wouldn't use these dogs if they were always mistaken. It takes a long time to train them, and they have to pay to care for the animals. They wouldn't waste money on dogs that couldn't pick up a cadaver scent.

So to me, it is evidence of something amiss. Kate explained it away as a cadaver scent coming from herself as a doctor. Kate said that Cuddle Cat had been in her office and therefore might smell like a cadaver. They explained the scent in the car as coming from garbage that they hauled to the dump, and dirty diapers from the twins.

All those statements from the McCanns are part of the facts of the case, and they are part of the public record. However, there is always the possibility they were lying, so we can't take any of that at face value.

Dogs don't lie, though, and they have no emotional attachment to the case. So I believe the dogs, as strange as that may seem to some of you.
 
  • #304
I would like to express strong agreement with ThoughtFox, Post 303, where s/he said that the McCanns' reactions to the reports of Madeleine's blood being sniffed by the cadaver dogs were 'part of the facts of the case'. S/he wrote: "Kate explained it away as a cadaver scent coming from herself as a doctor. Kate said that Cuddle Cat had been in her office and therefore might smell like a cadaver. They explained the scent in the car as coming from garbage that they hauled to the dump, and dirty diapers from the twins."

All those statements from the McCanns are part of the facts of the case, and they are part of the public record.

Very true! - and IMO very strong circumstantial evidence, along with all the other circumstantial evidence, that the McCanns were involved in some way in both the death of Madeleine and the disposal of her body.

And circumstantial evidence, if there is sufficient, may be enough to convict the McCanns of crimes such as manlsaughter, criminal negligence, interfering with or perverting the course of justice, interfering with a body, and avoiding an autopsy, or similar crimes, which may be known to either British or Portuguese law - even in the absence of a body.

I thought it would be appropriate to post here and now the '21 reasons the abduction theory cannot stand', which was compiled back in December.

I am checking the contents before releasing it via e-mail in he U.K., and we will hopefully put it up on The Madeleine Foundation site when this is up and running.

Points 13 (especially) and Point 17 address the points ThoughtFox was addressing:

========================================================

The Theory of the Abduction of Madeleine McCann.

An Unproven Hypothesis, and Twenty-one Reasons It Cannot Stand.

1. The Implausibility of "Stranger" Abduction.

Statistics on alleged ‘stranger’ abduction from a person’s home show that a member of the ‘abducted’ child’s family is usually the perpetrator, and that the child usually dies. An overwhelming 99% of all claimed ‘abductions’ from a home turn out to be intra-family murder. There have been two high profile cases in the last few weeks - ‘Baby Grace’, found battered and decomposing in a plastic box on sand dunes near Galveston, and the ‘dead baby in the attic’. Both were claimed abductions - and both were hoaxes.
Children’s Commissioner I was thinking that he might be persuaded to repeat or enlarge on his little publicised statement with regard to the putative Megan’s Law.
“We are concerned that a version of Megan’s Law could detract from the fact that children are actually most at risk from people known to them.

2. Refusal to Answer the Policia Judiciaria’s Questions.

The McCanns did not answer the P.J.’s questions – it is reported that there were forty such unanswered questions. These are the not actions of innocent parents, who would do all they could to assist the police in every way possible.

3. Ignoring Advice not to Highlight Madeleine’s Eye Defect.

The parents ignored the clearest possible P.J. advice not to highlight Madeleine’s eye defect, the coloboma (an iris defect). If Madeleine were still alive, this would have put Madeleine at much greater risk of death. The parents’ conduct suggests they knew she was already dead. They deliberately ignored sound advice not to make Madeleine so recognisable that the abductors (if she was abducted) would have to kill her. All the publicity posters emphasising the coloboma, the announcement of all the sightings, and claims of being "right on the kidnappers" trail…all these actions put Madeleine at greater risk.

4. The Impossibility of the Abduction Happening as Claimed.

The sheer impossibility of the abduction – so many intractable questions: e.g., why did the abductor wait for thirty-five minutes after the McCanns sauntered down to the Tapas bar? Was the abductor/predator hiding behind the door as Gerry McCann checked the children? (That’s what he claims). Did the abductor/predator really walk in through open patio doors, and why then did he climb out through the window and shutters with Madeleine under his arm? And so on...

5. The Changing Stories of What the Abductor Looked Like.

Jane Tanner’s often changed story of what the abductor looked like: initially "His head was egg-shaped, he had some short hair, and was carrying a bundle, maybe a blanket", then, a full three weeks later - and to make sure that the P.J. issued a description - "I definitely saw him carrying a girl in pink pyjamas". Then, after SIX months, we are given an artist’s impression of the abductor and we are now told: "Head not egg-shaped, hair long, sleek, black and shiny, abductor was not ‘white’ but ‘swarthy and Mediterranean’" etc.

6. The Parents’ Absolute Insistence that Abduction was the
Only Explanation for Madeleine’s Disappearance.

The parents’ immediate and insistent cry of abduction - excluding all other possibilities.

7. Claiming the Abductor was the Man Allegedly Seen by Jane Tanner.

Gerry McCann proceeded, after three weeks, to issue a description of the abductor based SOLELY on Jane Tanner’s dubious sighting - against P.J. advice and only after Gordon Brown had intervened by phoning the P.J.

8. The Tapas 9 Pact of Silence.

The "Pact or Conspiracy of Silence" - the notorious agreement between them all to keep silent about the events of that night.

9 Changes to the Story.

Changes to the story, as for example:

Day 1: "Shutters jemmied open, windows open, patio doors locked, abductor must have forced his way in".

Days 2 and 3: P.J. and Mark Warners say: "No way shutters and window were forced from outside".

Several days later: McCanns - "Oh, we left the patio doors open, so abductor must have walked in through the patio doors and then opened the shutters and climbed out of the window with Madeleine".

10. The Hiring of Dubious Private Investigators.

Hiring a dubious British private investigation agency and a dubious Spanish ‘detective agency’ (Metodo 3) at cost of several hundred thousand pounds, all for no obvious benefit or results.

11. The Hiring of Britain’s Top Extradition Lawyer.

The McCanns rushed to hire the U.K.’s top extradition lawyer – one Michael Caplan Q.C. (who represented General Pinochet) - at the very moment they became formal suspects.

12. Publicly Agreeing to Take a Lie Detector Test - And Then Refusing.

After initial boasting of their willingness to take the test, the McCanns refused to do so.

13. Strange and Irrational Excuses for "Blood, DNA, and the Smell of Death".

The extraordinary excuses offered by the McCanns in response to the forensic findings of blood, DNA, and cadaverine smell included these six examples:

(a) I took Cuddle Cat to work - that’s why the smell of death is on Cuddle Cat.

(b) I dealt with 6 corpses in the last fortnight at work, that’s why the smell of death is on my clothes

(c) We’ll get on to lawyers in Ireland/America who say these cadaver dogs’ evidence is useless.

(d) The DNA was the children’s dirty nappies in the boot.

(e) The ‘smell of death’ was rotting meat that Gerry was taking to the dump.

(f) The blood in the flat (found underneath the tiles in the children’s bedroom) might have been from Madeleine grazing her leg when she boarded the plane, or perhaps a nosebleed.

14. Not Staying Protectively Close to the Twins after Madeleine’s Disappearance.

The parents left their twins at the creche within days of Madeleine disappearing and spent as much time as possible visiting the Pope, the White House, and "campaigning" - no parents whose child had truly been ‘abducted by a stranger’ would let those twins out of their sight; they would cling to the precious two they had left.

15. Refusing a Urine Test on the Twins.

The McCanns, both doctors, refused urine tests for their two-year-old twins, although they later admitted that the children "could have been drugged by the abductor". The parents then waited for five months before engaging an agency to carry out "independent" tests. The results of these tests have never been publicly disclosed and it is not known for what drugs the agency tested.

16. Only Answering Press Questions with At Least Two Hours Advance Notice.

The McCanns stipulated that for all interviews, the press had to present all questions to them at least two hours in advance of the interview, and that they would only answer those questions, and no others.

17. The McCanns Attempt to Explain that the "Abductor" Drugged the Children.

The McCanns explained away the fact that the twins didn’t wake up, amidst all the shouting when the alarm was raised about Madeleine, by hinting that the twins must have been drugged by the abductor. The McCanns came up with this theory while being filmed by close family friend Jon Corner in August, and after leaks from the Portuguese police suggested that the children had been sedated.

18. The Startling Failure of the McCanns’ Friends to Search
for Madeleine the Night She Disappeared.

According to a number of reports which have never been contradicted, while hundreds of people, including staff of Mark Warners and many local people, searched the area around the Ocean Club apartments for hours after Madeleine went missing, not one of the McCanns’ friends, known as the ‘Tapas 9’, bothered to do so. They all went to bed. That is as clear an indication as you could get that they knew it would be pointless searching for Madeleine. It is entirely consistent with them knowing that Madeleine was already dead.

19. The McCanns’ Failure to Talk to Jane Tanner for Two Whole Days About Her Sighting of the "Alleged" Abductor.

According to many reports, and confirmed in an article by David Smith, in ‘The Times’ of late December 2007, the McCanns did not bother to talk to Jane Tanner for two whole days about what she claimed to have seen at 9.15pm that night - namely a person walking off with a child looking like Madeleine. This is despite the McCanns’ absolute insistence that an abduction had taken place. According to David Smith’s article, which included an exclusive and extended interview with Gerry McCann, he and Jane Tanner did not speak to each other because they were ‘too busy’. If there really had been an abduction, the McCanns and Jane Tanner would have spoken to each other about what she saw without a moment’s delay.

20. Apprehension about Phone Calls being Monitored.

The McCanns expressed anxiety about their phone calls and e-mails being intercepted. What innocent parent would worry about that?

21. Concealing Records of their Mobile Phone Calls.

The McCanns refused to supply their mobile phone accounts to the P.J.


Prepared by Tony Bennett, December 2007
 
  • #305
The majority of those "21 reasons" mean nothing imo.
 
  • #306
Excellent job, Tony Bennett, in summarizing the major points.
 
  • #307
Tony Bennet said:
13. Strange and Irrational Excuses for "Blood, DNA, and the Smell of Death".

The extraordinary excuses offered by the McCanns in response to the forensic findings of blood, DNA, and cadaverine smell included these six examples:

(a) I took Cuddle Cat to work - that’s why the smell of death is on Cuddle Cat.

(b) I dealt with 6 corpses in the last fortnight at work, that’s why the smell of death is on my clothes

(c) We’ll get on to lawyers in Ireland/America who say these cadaver dogs’ evidence is useless.

(d) The DNA was the children’s dirty nappies in the boot.

(e) The ‘smell of death’ was rotting meat that Gerry was taking to the dump.

(f) The blood in the flat (found underneath the tiles in the children’s bedroom) might have been from Madeleine grazing her leg when she boarded the plane, or perhaps a nosebleed.
Thanks, Tony - an excellent list, indeed. :blowkiss:

I might give them their excuses about the dirty diapers and chicken bones, if Kate hadn't made the comment about Cadavers and Cuddlecat, which happened before they went on vacation. So Kate didn't wash Maddie's favorite toy after it had been in a doctor's office around cadavers, but she washed it after the child disappeared? Hello?

All that raises questions and it's just protesting too much on their part that everything is explainable.
 
  • #308
The majority of those "21 reasons" mean nothing imo.
I agree most mean nothing, just opinion...not evidence.

It's all to easy to point to two cases where a child that had gone missing from home had been killed by the parent. And therefore this somehow points to the McCanns being guilty. :waitasec:
What about Polly Class, Samantha Runnion, Danielle Van Dam, and Jessica Lunsford.
Sadly it's happening all too often.
 
  • #309
Thanks, Tony - an excellent list, indeed. :blowkiss:

I might give them their excuses about the dirty diapers and chicken bones, if Kate hadn't made the comment about Cadavers and Cuddlecat, which happened before they went on vacation. So Kate didn't wash Maddie's favorite toy after it had been in a doctor's office around cadavers, but she washed it after the child disappeared? Hello?

All that raises questions and it's just protesting too much on their part that everything is explainable.

ThoughFox, I couldn't agree more, I could never understand why any mother would want to take her childs favourite toy to work where there was a good chance it would come into contact with dead bodies, you just wouldn't...would you!

Tony, excellent post and most interesting ! You make a lot of sense and I have to say that I agree with you on many things, in particualr... :confused:

2. Refusal to Answer the Policia Judiciaria’s Questions.

The McCanns did not answer the P.J.’s questions – it is reported that there were forty such unanswered questions. These are the not actions of innocent parents, who would do all they could to assist the police in every way possible.

 
  • #310
A TAXI driver claimed yesterday that Madeleine McCann was in his cab the night she vanished — with suspect Robert Murat.
Antonio Cardoso, 67, insisted he took the little girl and four adults on a short journey to a hotel where they all switched to a Jeep with foreign plates.





And he said of Murat, who was named by Portuguese police as the first suspect or “arguido” in the case: “I later recognised him on television. I am sure it was him."
Last night Maddie’s parents Kate and Gerry, both 39, were in shock over Cardoso’s claims but rejected them as “entirely wrong” because of timing inconsistencies.
The cabbie maintained he picked up the child, three men and a woman at a taxi rank in Monte Gordo, near the border with Spain, at 8.10pm on May 3 last year.
In detail, he described how he ferried them for about two miles in silence to the Hotel Apolo in Vila Real de Santo António near Faro, the Algarve capital. He swore the man who got into the front passenger seat, wearing little rectangular glasses, was 33-year-old Murat.
And he said the girl, who sat on the lap of a man behind him, wore pink pyjamas and had a distinctive mark in her eye — just like Maddie.
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He added: “She was awake but silent. She was just staring ahead with big owlish eyes. I noticed her eye because my son was born with a defect much the same. I saw her kind of twist her chin a few times in my rear-view mirror. I remember she was in pink pyjamas and wondered why they hadn’t dressed her.”
On reaching the hotel Cardoso said the group got out with their only piece of luggage, a red and black three-wheeled buggy, and switched to a dark blue Jeep. The cabbie noticed it had a yellow licence plate which was not Portuguese.
Cardoso said the adults were all casually dressed and described the woman as a slim blonde.
He said the only thing any of them said on the trip was “How much please?” and that they paid four euros with a one euro tip.





As soon as Maddie’s disappearance hit the news, he said he reported the incident to the police — but was inexplicably discounted.
He claimed he also passed on his information to Método 3, the Spanish private detective agency hired by the McCanns, but that they had not contacted him since.

More here
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/maddie/article855530.ece
 
  • #311
Posted by Li on the 3A's:

...............

There are two main articles in this edition.
The first one is the taxi driver story.
The second one is about the rogatory letter and it says that the letter is already with the Leicester police and that within ten days a team of the PJ will travel to England to monitor the interrogations that will be made by the Leicester police. The first persons to be questioned will be Jane Tanner, David Payne and Russel O'Brien.

And then there is a little one concerning the reaction of Clarence Mitchell to the taxi driver story.

Clarence Mitchell, spokesman for the McCanns reacted astonished to the declarations of the taxi driver. "The declarations of Mr. Castela are fake. They are ludicrous. He can only be mistaken when he says that at that time he transported Kate and Madeleine with three men", he said underlining the fact that there are several independent witnesses that put Madeleine's parents in a totally different place. How is that possible if at 20,35 several witnesses say that Kate and Gerry were seated at the Tapas restaurant?", he questioned. Clarence doubts of the intentions of the taxi driver. "I am astonished that only now, ten months after, he talks about this. These are declarations that only cause pain to Kate and Gerry", he said, saying that the McCann's daughter has no facial expression. "The only sign to report is the one she has in the eye".
http://24horasnewspaper.com/total.php?numero=2778&link=23
**********
Meaning of the facial expressions. The taxi driver claims that Madeleine had a twitch in her chin.
 
  • #312
PJ has got a OK regarding the rogatory letters

During the next week an inspector from the English Police is expected to show in Algarve, he will reunite with the PJ in order to define all the procedures that should be taken so the rogatory letters can be fulfilled. The meeting was arranjed after the Brisitsh authorities had accepted the PJ's request to conduct diligencies in the Bristish soil. After everything is arranjed, the PJ's inpectors will leave to Great Britain where they will follow all the diligencies.

As CM [Correio da Manhã] has already said, in a first phase the PJ will want to reinterview Jane Tanner, Russel O' Brien and David Payne, three of the friends who spend the holidays with the McCanns. Only after that it will be decided whether Kate and Gerry will be questioned again.


http://www.correiodamanha.pt/noticia.asp?id=279728&idselect=9&idCanal=9&p=200
 
  • #313
Colomom: Thank you for posting both those stories!

Thank goodness there is some news about those blasted rogatory letters! :woohoo:

The one about the taxi gets more interesting every time I read something new. If Clarence wanted to pin this on Murat, then why not say that yes that could have been Murat with other people, since they've tried to pin it on Murat's girlfriend before? Why say that the taxi ride is impossible, since the man and woman might not have been Kate and Gerry, and might have been accomplices in the "kidnapping"?

Madeleine having a "twitching chin" is very troubling. Does that imply some sort of seizure might have been occurring? And why are we just now hearing about this? That story just creeps me out. :(

Edited to Add: The taxi driver also said he noticed the eye defect in the child whom he thought was Maddie and that she was wearing pink pajamas. He noticed her eye because his own son has a similar eye problem:

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages...ews.html?in_article_id=520929&in_page_id=1811
 
  • #314
at last it might seem that the PJ can continue this investigation and interview the Tapas 7 further - get the clarification they need.

It will be interesting - If the Tapas are all guilty of some involvment then the easiest answer in the world would be just to say - I gave my original statement - I dont remember anymore - it was so long ago - They also have the right as every citizen has to remain silent - they dont have to say bean - if that was there want . will they be cautioned read their rights ? Or is this just a helping police as much as they can as they have stated .

But at least things seem to be moving - however painfully slowly

The taxi story isnt a new one me thinks - I am sure I have heard it before. But you couldnt make it up could you either Murat and friends kidnap Madeline and then l:crazy: ...........get a taxi !!

Or even Gerry and Kate decide to get rid of Maddy - with Murat and then again - hey lets get a cab - .

I think we can place that firmly in the bonkers file - along with a few others
 
  • #315
Madeleine McCann was in my taxi, man claims

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/02/28/wmaddy128.xml

But the McCanns spokesman Clarence Mitchell told the newspaper: "We are dismissing this primarily because the timings are entirely wrong."
**********
A reasonable response if the timings are known to be wrong. IMO.

No twitching here either, but the taxi driver is reported to have said......."I noticed her eye because my son was born with a defect much the same. I saw her kind of twist her chin a few times in my rear-view mirror....
**********
Amazing how different reports of the same story can be. :rolleyes:
 
  • #316
Amazing how different reports of the same story can be.

It is AMAZING. I am shocked at the differences from one paper to the next in some of the cases, the false info, stating things and then they become facts to us, we can't help it, our biggest source has always been the news.....it's all we have to go on..unless they release official docs, we can only 'ride with it' and speculate. It's horrible isn't it! This case and T. Duckett's case I think have been the absolute worst media cases I have ever seen!
 
  • #317
one thing tonight re the dogs and jersey - where the dogs have been searching

I have paid attention very closely to the handlers and what they have said ....all have been very quick to say that the dogs are there has a guide ... an indication where to search. Most of them were saying that it is blood and remains .they pick up both.

Now without going over old ground here .it is a point .

also the dogs indicated at least 6 sites to be searched plus a cellar . now so far thank god only one body has been found - maybe that might change ........... but please dogs are not the be all .they are bloody good at giving an indication , but not infallible
 
  • #318
gord: But you know . . . they did find a dead body there . . . and the other places could have been traces of other bodies that were there and then moved, which might also be the case with Madeleine.

Also - these dogs are trained to hunt "human" remains, and not animal remains, such as chicken bones.

A dirty diaper would not be the same as a cadaver, either, as far as I know.
 
  • #319
gord: But you know . . . they did find a dead body there . . . and the other places could have been traces of other bodies that were there and then moved, which might also be the case with Madeleine.

Also - these dogs are trained to hunt "human" remains, and not animal remains, such as chicken bones.

A dirty diaper would not be the same as a cadaver, either, as far as I know.

A dirty diaper would never be the same as a corpse, to a trained dog. In fact, even people with their less keen sense of smell note the difference--many an unknown dead person has been discovered in the trunk of a car, an apartment, or other location simply because other people have commented upon the unbearably bad smell.

The chemical difference between a human excrement or urine in a diaper, and a human body decomposing, is immense.
 
  • #320
A dirty diaper would never be the same as a corpse, to a trained dog. In fact, even people with their less keen sense of smell note the difference--many an unknown dead person has been discovered in the trunk of a car, an apartment, or other location simply because other people have commented upon the unbearably bad smell.

The chemical difference between a human excrement or urine in a diaper, and a human body decomposing, is immense.
I agree - I have three kids, so I know what a diaper smells like. At it's worst, it's not like something dead. Just . . . no way. Parents couldn't deal with it if the odor was that bad. And if we are talking about disposable diapers, they often have deodorizers in them, or they've been in some sort of container that was deodorized. A trained dog would not confuse that with a dead body, in my opinion.

And before someone says that Portugal is a warm climate and things can "go bad" quickly, I live in the Southeastern U.S. where it is very hot in the summer. I have seen and smelled dead animals in summer before - it's different from food waste or diapers.
 
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